Is it pointless to believe in God?

[Virtual ghost]

For along time I am thinking about this and i would like to share my conclusions with others.
What I am doing is merging many small arguments of mine into larger one since I would like to hear opinions of other people about this.
I am using Christian version of God but this can be expanded on other religions and other forms of spirituality as well.



Question about God is unconventional one so it requires unvonventional approach and answer.



Here is the thing.
When I take a look at people around me I ask myself one question.
Where were those people in 12. century?
The only reasonable answer I can come up is "They were dead".
But that raises a large amount of problems.
Were we a soul for an eternity before we are born or God creates souls as he wish? What would mean that God on purpose creats souls that will end up in Hell and the alternative which is "Since ever - forever to Hell" is even more apsurd.
If God loves us so much then why would he let something like this?



There is one more interesting case

You have parents that really love their child but in school that child falls under a bad influence and does some bad things one day.

My question is: How will that parents enjoy in Heaven knowing that their child is not there with them and that he/she has a horrible time and it will have it for quite a while? You don't even need to have that bad influence sometimes sh** just happen .
Do you honestlly think that those parents will be able to enjoy that much in Heaven? Especialy because they will see other families that are complete, all the time. Also everything could be fine for you but not for all people who you know. So some depression will even spread a liitle bit on others.

I would like to hear opinion of parents on the forum about this.

Not to mention that in this case they will meet all of their ancestors that made their way into the Heaven. What could be quite impractical.



Because of this idea of Hell and eternal punishment looks like something quite ilogical. But if there is no punishment you are actually free to do whatever you want.
If you can be send to Hell for a finite amount of time, that is not so much good punishment since you can't die in hell what means you will survive for sure and get the same benefits that good people get.
Not to mention that God-Devil relations must be different if this is to become a relatity. What changes a lot of things again.
What would again lead into reality without good and evil in the end.



I also think that Heaven is probably same as Hell on the long run.

Why?


For example: You like writting books but about what you will write in Heaven?

If you start to write novels but there is a problem becuse there is no infinite number of novels you can write without staring to repeat with time.
Pluse your mind has boundarys and it operates inside of them.


But there is so big number of novels that can be written and it would be fun to do it once again. but with time it is unavoidable that you start to repeat yourself once again. What will you do then? Start another cycle?

What will you do after 10 cycles ? 100? 10000? 1000000?
Will you still write novels?

What after 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 cycles ?

I mean you can mix writting with other activity but problem is still out there.

What will you do when that huge number that is writting up there will be the number of zeros after number 1 ?


There is a fact that you forget things with time but you will always be conscious of the fact that you have done this so many times that you will even need thousands of years to even say the number how many time did you do something.
(becuse it is that Big)

All people that go to Heaven could ask God to delete their memory.
But in that case people will figure out what happened quite fast and once again you have same problem.

Since you can't die, the problem will be there forever. Always behind you and ready to destroy any fun that comes your way.
Since you can't die you really can't experiance any real adventure becuse chance of survival is 100%.


What will you do? Ask God to destroy you somehow?

The only way to avoid this problem is that after death God turns you into something else. The point is that your human consciousness is no more so that you can grow and expand further.
But that means that everything we like and worship in this life would not hold any real value. Also a lot of people believe exactly because they don't want to lose those things.



But in that case you have another problem. If God can turn good person into something else why can't he do the same with a bad person?
If he can change entire mental concept I don't see why he/she/it can't destroy tiny part that makes someone good or evil.

So all logical conclusions lead to sitation that there is no good and evil or right and wrong in reality we live in. (Heaven and Hell included)
I say this becuse all of us should get the benefits or no one will on the long run. Or there will be a lot of injustice.


If all of us don't get the same path that is not fair at all. Becuse you are not guilty for the fact that you have personality disorder or that your parents did not love you when you were a baby. If we add determinism in this then good a bad can't exist for sure in this reality and how you will live for an eternity is purely based on luck.


If we presume that there is no afterlife then the entire thing is losing its point since we will all die and stay that way.


Maybe God has a great master plan but we as humans have our logic and our way(s) and we get hurt if they are not met. So it does not matter how much the master plan is good if people are suffereing.
Not to mention that Gods existence is pointless as well.



What I am saying is that God could or could not exist but the real question is actually "Do we really need him/her/it and everything he/she/it has to offer?"

 

[Night]

No: by definition, there is a point.

It's whether you buy into the point that makes the difference.

 

[Virtual ghost]

No: by definition, there is a point.

It's whether you buy into the point that makes the difference.

That is the thing. I don't see the difference.

 

[Moiety]

That is the thing. I don't see the difference.

That's because you're an INTJ.

 

[Totenkindly]

lol... yup, there are a lot of assumptions in that first post.

For example:

Were we a soul for an eternity before we are born or God creates souls as he wish? What would mean that God on purpose creats souls that will end up in Hell and the alternative which is "Since ever - forever to Hell" is even more apsurd.
If God loves us so much then why would he let something like this?

Who ever said that God was "good"?
Perhaps he's like IT out of Harlan Ellison's "I have no mouth and I must scream," and he creates people because he loves to torture them.

We can't make assumptions about the nature of God and then use those assumptions to prove or disprove God; we can simply create theories about who we think God is or isn't, and then use experience/logic/whatever else to test the theories.

Likewise:

I also think that Heaven is probably same as Hell on the long run.
Why?
For example: You like writting books but about what you will write in Heaven?
If you start to write novels but there is a problem becuse there is no infinite number of novels you can write without staring to repeat with time.
Pluse your mind has boundarys and it operates inside of them.

Who says heaven and hell include the writing of books?
Who says we'll be the "same" there, subject to the same laws of boredom, as we are here?
Who says there actually exist those boundaries in heaven or hell that you claim here would exist?

Too many assumptions.

 

[Lady_X]

no.

 

[Nocapszy]

When is this nonsense about God going to end?
Give the guy a rest for Christ's sake. You think he likes being under the microscope all the time? The light must be blinding.

I bet we're all going to hell for gossiping about him so much.

Is there a point to questioning his existence?
Yeah there is.

Egos. The debates aren't even about God anymore. These threads are just hellacious. Especially LOLitaryWalker's.

I'd like to tell a story about a scientist.
Jan Hendrik Schon was an ostensibly hard working scientist. He apparently worked so hard, that he managed a fresh research paper almost once a week.
The most famous of these was one propounding a discovery, which passed both intellectual rigor and hard experimentation.

A molecular transistor. For those of your familiar with Moores law, you know this is an extremely beneficial advancement.

As time went on, the fidelity of his work became highly questionable, much like God's. People were beginning to say it wasn't really true. That he was lying.

At first he calmly denied the allegation. And at first, they believed him. Everyone agreed - it all stood up to plausible rigor.
But no one was ever able to put his theories to test and make them work. With this kind of a reputation, it stands to reason that his inferiors would begin to question his results. You might say they were losing faith.

As it turns out, those people were fucking right. He was a damned liar. But he didn't lie the same way God did, so here's where you stop following what I pretended was an analogy.
Stop jumping on the first metaphor you think you see the very instant you see it.
Who knows - it might drag you off a cliff.

The fact of the matter was, this dick was fabricating phony results. He used the same data for every graph -- he didn't even have the work ethic (or know-how) to photoshop the noise to differ a little bit. He cheated in college and cheated in real life.
Personally, I'm hoping the IRS pays him an extended visit every year for the rest of his life.

He wanted to be a revolutionary scientist, and for a long time he was.
This idiot still stands by his clearly falsified results.
Doesn't really help him though. The guy lost his degree.
He just wanted to be first. He wanted it so bad that he pulled NASA.


I think the same thing is true of these God philosophers.
Every one of you thread starting jerks are pulling a Schön. Stop that.
It's annoying.

 

[BlackCat]

I think there is a point. That point to me is that something must have made everything... I don't think it just appeared out of no where.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Here are a few brief responses to how I personally answer these questions.

Here is the thing.
When I take a look at people around me I ask myself one question.
Where were those people in 12. century?
The only reasonable answer I can come up is "They were dead".
But that raises a large amount of problems.
Were we a soul for an eternity before we are born or God creates souls as he wish? What would mean that God on purpose creats souls that will end up in Hell and the alternative which is "Since ever - forever to Hell" is even more apsurd.
If God loves us so much then why would he let something like this?

My personal belief is that Hell is essentially the same as death. Both body and soul are destroyed. Additionally, I don't really think the concept of a soul has any meaning when separated from the body.

There is one more interesting case

You have parents that really love their child but in school that child falls under a bad influence and does some bad things one day.

My question is: How will that parents enjoy in Heaven knowing that their child is not there with them and that he/she has a horrible time and it will have it for quite a while? You don't even need to have that bad influence sometimes sh** just happen .
Do you honestlly think that those parents will be able to enjoy that much in Heaven? Especialy because they will see other families that are complete, all the time. Also everything could be fine for you but not for all people who you know. So some depression will even spread a liitle bit on others.

I would like to hear opinion of parents on the forum about this.

We all encounter bad influences, and we all have the choice as to how we will respond to them. A person is ultimately in control of their own life. If my daughter is not in Heaven I will be very sad for a while, but I will eventually accept the fact that she ultimately made all the important choices in her life. Every person is ultimately responsible for their own actions.

I also think that Heaven is probably same as Hell on the long run.

Why?


For example: You like writting books but about what you will write in Heaven?

If you start to write novels but there is a problem becuse there is no infinite number of novels you can write without staring to repeat with time.
Pluse your mind has boundarys and it operates inside of them.

But there is so big number of novels that can be written and it would be fun to do it once again. but with time it is unavoidable that you start to repeat yourself once again. What will you do then? Start another cycle?

What will you do after 10 cycles ? 100? 10000? 1000000?
Will you still write novels?

What after 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 cycles ?

I mean you can mix writting with other activity but problem is still out there.

What will you do when that huge number that is writting up there will be the number of zeros after number 1 ?


There is a fact that you forget things with time but you will always be conscious of the fact that you have done this so many times that you will even need thousands of years to even say the number how many time did you do something.
(becuse it is that Big)

All of the main plotlines have essentially already been written, and yet there are still plenty of people who enjoy to write. Why would Heaven be any different?

All people that go to Heaven could ask God to delete their memory.
But in that case people will figure out what happened quite fast and once again you have same problem.

Alternatively people could learn how to cope with the increased knowledge that they have, much like we already do on Earth.

Since you can't die, the problem will be there forever. Always behind you and ready to destroy any fun that comes your way.
Since you can't die you really can't experiance any real adventure becuse chance of survival is 100%.

This may be a temperment thing, but I don't need a chance of dying in order to feel a sense of adventure.

But in that case you have another problem. If God can turn good person into something else why can't he do the same with a bad person?
If he can change entire mental concept I don't see why he/she/it can't destroy tiny part that makes someone good or evil.

Ultimately there are no good people, so only bad people are getting into Heaven anyway.

If we presume that there is no afterlife then the entire thing is losing its point since we will all die and stay that way.


Maybe God has a great master plan but we as humans have our logic and our way(s) and we get hurt if they are not met. So it does not matter how much the master plan is good if people are suffereing.
Not to mention that Gods existence is pointless as well.



What I am saying is that God could or could not exist but the real question is actually "Do we really need him/her/it and everything he/she/it has to offer?"

I don't really believe in God because of an afterlife anyway. I see that as more of an added bonus. I believe in God because of the benefits I receive now on Earth.

 

[Mole]

...something must have made everything... I don't think it just appeared out of no where.

Quantum Mechanics is our most accurate description of reality so far. And it is very, very, very accurate - unimaginably accurate.

Yet Quantum Mechanics says that particles are popping into existence and out of existence, all the time, right around us, now.

Quantum Mechanics says that things appear out of nowhere all the time.

So to say that things just do not appear out of nowhere means you must overturn Quantum Mechanics first.

But in fact you say that things just do not appear out of nowhere because you intuitively see this around you.

But things that are very big, as in Relativity, or very small, as in Quantum Mechanics, are counter intuitive.

You are identical to those who, over the last 200,000 years, said the Sun goes round the Earth. After all it is entirely intuitive.

 

[Didums]

Is it pointless to believe in God?

To those who believe it gives them a sense of purpose and understanding.
To those who disbelieve it is pointless, hence their disbelief.

What I am saying is that God could or could not exist but the real question is actually "Do we really need him/her/it and everything he/she/it has to offer?"

One can live a "moral" life without a belief in God. Therefore, if God is truly benevolent, a moral atheist/theist that does not believe in that specific God should still be accepted into heaven. This is making the assumption that morality is not derivative of God/belief in him, however it is not much of an assumption when one thinks of the Euthyphro dilemma.

 

[Anja]

In my spirituality the words "belief" and "God" have no place in the same sentence. It's not a matter of belief at all.

Belief is a function of the brain. Faith is a function of the heart and hands.

 

[DigitalMethod]

There are too many paradoxes that come up in my mind when I think about the idea of an all powerful being.
I can't really see myself as being a believer in any religion that believes in an all powerful god.
And the whole, no proof thing, sort of makes me question the idea of god in the first place.

Therefore I stick to philosophy, and being a good person. Following gut and ideals.

 

[swordpath]

To me personally, I feel it's pointless. Some would argue but I don't believe you should adopt a creed when you don't have concrete proof/evidence to support what you believe. There's too many theories and possibilities to adhere to one belief system (or any at all).

However, if you're comfortable in your faith and it gives you meaning to life, good on you. You might lead a more purpose driven life than some. Whether it's in vain or not... that is the question. I can't answer it, therefore I'm not comfortable adopting a religion/faith.

 

[swordpath]

I think there is a point. That point to me is that something must have made everything...

Is it possible our answers are not within the realm of our mind's capacity? Why is it God? What is God? How can we ever know who/what it is if we can't answer question number 1?

 

[ajblaise]

For some people, belief in God is what holds them together, and without that belief, they couldn't cope with life. But, this seems like a quick fix and a masking of their problems, in the same way that heroin addicts use to escape their problems.

So, for many, belief is clearly worthwhile, but for others, the absolute need to believe is representative of deeper psychological issues.

 

[Anja]

For some people, belief in God is what holds them together, and without that belief, they couldn't cope with life. But, this seems like a quick fix and a masking of their problems, in the same way that heroin addicts use to escape their problems.

So, for many, belief is clearly worthwhile, but for others, the absolute need to believe is representative of deeper psychological issues.

This is so true. A misuse of the concept of spirituality. Just as a misuse of the concept of altered mood. It cripples rather than strengthens. Actually the search is the same - an attempt to fill what is missing in one's spirit. Maybe even a failure to recognize one's spirit. Or the hole.

I can and have coped with life without anything but my belief in myself. But turns out that the world has a way of teaching us that we aren't invulnerable to everything life has to deal out.

Some cope just fine this way. They grow a shell fifty feet thick and hang in. Who knows whether they are happy or at peace with themselves. I hope so.

I just wanted more out of my life than coping. And that way left me with a sense of purposelessness. A meaningless existence. Life's a bitch and then you die. No thanks to that.

Since I have learned how to allign myself with the strength there is in growth and life I have learned that spiritual faith isn't a crutch at all but rather the source of my personal power.

My problem was that I was trying to use my brain instead of my "heart." And alligning myself with material things instead of my spirit. Material things have a way of disappearing.

Deal is nobody has to believe in anything. It's not about belief from my experience. Nothing mystic or magic about it at all either. It's just a shift in perception. I imagine that some day scientists will figure out what sort of energy thing is going on but we haven't been able to define it yet.

It took me a hella long time to get this. But. Hey. You don't get it until you get it.

 

[Nonsensical]

I think that God plays part is so many lives around the world that it would be utter insanity to call it pointless, whether you argue the truth in it, or not.

The problem I have is that people use a little bit of logic to outprove something so vast that nearly every culture shows some sign of its existence, even from prehistoric times. If you want to be specific, argue the concept of the beginning of the universe. What served as an energy source? I find it kind of paradoxical that people nail churches as being false towards God's existence, and than go and automaticly disprove the theory compoletely..it seems just as uneducated.

 

[swordpath]

I think that God plays part is so many lives around the world that it would be utter insanity to call it pointless, whether you argue the truth in it, or not.

The things people do in "God's name" is utter insanity, but maybe that's a different topic.

 

[527468]

God loves us so much, that he wants the best for us. If hell is the best thing for you then he will love you enough to support your journey to it. Have you been to hell? Do you have proof that it is not the best thing for you?

I agree with you anja, if you're stating that God is misinterpreted and really is the "answer."