[MBTI General] INTP+ENTJ

[INTP]

In referece to bold: Are you sure it's just a TJ thing other than istj...what i really mean is have you gone in this specific "route" before with an estj? cause i think they are very detailed...i could be wrong.

First I'd like to say that find it difficult to explain myself because I feel like i'm stating the obvious and I think my Fe can be hyperactive...so I hate being corny or stating the obvious in front of other people. What i'm really getting at though is Ni. This sounds like Ni....intp's are always talking about relevance...actually it could just be Ti in general. Either way I find that a bit odd because why would I take time to talk to you about something if it's irrelevant...i guess that just makes me annoyed a little...deciding what's relevant or not...as if the thought doesn't matter....and when my thought is questioned like that ...no I may not have prepared response because Ni is giving me the thought. I don't know how to translate it myself let alone translate it to you. I think we do understand because of Ni, just don't know how to explain why ...At least that is how it is for me...I love Ni but not when i'm debating...unless i've done it repeatedly before and know my response and have sifted through my Ni to get the real explaination. And then when you bring the word relevance back into the equation, Ni is constantly connecting the dots....so how is something not relevant when it came from another thought...i don't think i like that term ha ha.

i have only known one ISTJ irl, never had the same problem with him, i do know two ESTJs and its not as bad with them as NTJs, but still i notice similar pattern.

your type says ENTJ, ENTJs doesent have Fe, their attitude on F is introverted.

Ni doesent give a thought, Ni gives subjective intuitive perception, it is an subjective image made of what seems to be relevant from subjective point of view. T, extraverted or introverted is what gives you thought. if it were a thought that Ni was giving to you, you would be perfectly able to explain it. thought is an conscious process and conscious processes are easily explained. if the thought(or what ever its really called) is formed unconsciously, consciousness only perceives an image of this "thought", so in jungian terms(which i assume we are using, because we are talking about typology), it is called an perception. but since its some weird subjective intuition that you get, its no wonder that its hard to explain it. the difference is that Ni gives sense of overall picture, it creates an image of something. this image is not clearly defined, with its different parts differentiated from each other. this is where the problem is, Ni connects the dots, but tert/inferior Se is very selective about the dots that Ni connects together. this is what i was talking about when i said that NTJs take few key elements and form some weird and distorted image out of.

i think its good to talk of the F side on this matter. for INTP the F side gives more objective view of things, it is worth a lot from our Fe perspective to offer all the relevant information and give full understanding of something. you see, for us understanding things is essential and Fe wants to help others to have this knowledge also, so it may at times come off as bit forceful and tying to explain complex things that people dont care to understand THAT deeply. but for TJ this F side of things is very different. as an example, i decided to poke at my INTJ friend a bit and laugh at game he is playing(game makes banned people for doing what people normally do in RPG games, basically bought something for one currency, made some things with it and sold to another currency, made a little profit and got banned from advertising exploits because he streamed himself playing while doing this, even tho this is what people normally do in such games and its totally ridiculous that he got banned for doing so). so i sent him a message saying that he should talk to anyone or do anything in the game, cuz *insert a video of that guy who got banned*. now it was an obvious troll joke, but as i suspected, he started defending that company, telling me that its same that if he got payed 3 times the normal salary he gets from work, and then crying about getting busted for not mentioning it. this is the typical Fi response from TJ, they lose all their common sense and go to their Fi mode. in arguments i often see that TJs are talking from their Fi, thus not making any sense, not being open to rational discussion(take a firm stance on something and stick with it, just saying that "no i am right and you are wrong", "why", not saying it, but its obvious that they just feel like i am wrong and they are right) and not being able to explain themselves properly.

dont get me wrong, its not just Fi thats unable to explain itself, its also Ni, but for us, your intuitions have no value if you are not able to explain them. its like some religious lunatic claiming that god will come and punish everyone tomorrow, because he feel like its going to happen. explain why god is coming and why he punishes and ill think about it. if he cant explain it, he can shut the fuck up with his crazy talk.

i dont think its impossible for NiTe to learn how to communicate their intuitions, it just needs some practice, like everything does. but if ego is getting on the way and ego saying that "he is wrong and i am right", there is no learning to be made, since learning something like that, requires people to be humble and admit that they cant speak properly or understand something. if someone doesent understand you, its not right to judge him or you for that, just show that either one does not understand and try to resolve the misunderstandings, for example by seeking out definitions for words that you could both share, thus have a common language.

 

[Evo]

i have only known one ISTJ irl, never had the same problem with him, i do know two ESTJs and its not as bad with them as NTJs, but still i notice similar pattern.

your type says ENTJ, ENTJs doesent have Fe, their attitude on F is introverted.

Ni doesent give a thought, Ni gives subjective intuitive perception, it is an subjective image made of what seems to be relevant from subjective point of view. T, extraverted or introverted is what gives you thought. if it were a thought that Ni was giving to you, you would be perfectly able to explain it. thought is an conscious process and conscious processes are easily explained. if the thought(or what ever its really called) is formed unconsciously, consciousness only perceives an image of this "thought", so in jungian terms(which i assume we are using, because we are talking about typology), it is called an perception. but since its some weird subjective intuition that you get, its no wonder that its hard to explain it. the difference is that Ni gives sense of overall picture, it creates an image of something. this image is not clearly defined, with its different parts differentiated from each other. this is where the problem is, Ni connects the dots, but tert/inferior Se is very selective about the dots that Ni connects together. this is what i was talking about when i said that NTJs take few key elements and form some weird and distorted image out of.

i think its good to talk of the F side on this matter. for INTP the F side gives more objective view of things, it is worth a lot from our Fe perspective to offer all the relevant information and give full understanding of something. you see, for us understanding things is essential and Fe wants to help others to have this knowledge also, so it may at times come off as bit forceful and tying to explain complex things that people dont care to understand THAT deeply. but for TJ this F side of things is very different. as an example, i decided to poke at my INTJ friend a bit and laugh at game he is playing(game makes banned people for doing what people normally do in RPG games, basically bought something for one currency, made some things with it and sold to another currency, made a little profit and got banned from advertising exploits because he streamed himself playing while doing this, even tho this is what people normally do in such games and its totally ridiculous that he got banned for doing so). so i sent him a message saying that he should talk to anyone or do anything in the game, cuz *insert a video of that guy who got banned*. now it was an obvious troll joke, but as i suspected, he started defending that company, telling me that its same that if he got payed 3 times the normal salary he gets from work, and then crying about getting busted for not mentioning it. this is the typical Fi response from TJ, they lose all their common sense and go to their Fi mode. in arguments i often see that TJs are talking from their Fi, thus not making any sense, not being open to rational discussion(take a firm stance on something and stick with it, just saying that "no i am right and you are wrong", "why", not saying it, but its obvious that they just feel like i am wrong and they are right) and not being able to explain themselves properly.

dont get me wrong, its not just Fi thats unable to explain itself, its also Ni, but for us, your intuitions have no value if you are not able to explain them. its like some religious lunatic claiming that god will come and punish everyone tomorrow, because he feel like its going to happen. explain why god is coming and why he punishes and ill think about it. if he cant explain it, he can shut the fuck up with his crazy talk.

i dont think its impossible for NiTe to learn how to communicate their intuitions, it just needs some practice, like everything does. but if ego is getting on the way and ego saying that "he is wrong and i am right", there is no learning to be made, since learning something like that, requires people to be humble and admit that they cant speak properly or understand something. if someone doesent understand you, its not right to judge him or you for that, just show that either one does not understand and try to resolve the misunderstandings, for example by seeking out definitions for words that you could both share, thus have a common language.

entj's do have Fe. It is just subconcious. Everytype has every cognitive function, some are just shadow.(This right here<----stating the obvious) My Fe is probably more prominant than that of a regular ENTJ.(This is what i meant by "my Fe is really hyperactive" like i don't have control over it...but when it's there it's crazy, which is something I KNEW I WAS GOING TO BE CORRECTED ON right after i hit the quick reply button.) we will come back to this...another thing i needed to be corrected on was Ni and whether it was a thought. Your words exactly " Ni gives sense of overall picture." I replaced picture with the word idea. So now that that's clarified whether I was right or wrong...I did not think I had to explain those things. <----that right there ...is the problem i have talking to Ti ...they disect everything...and we wind up coming to the same conclusion...at least most of the time...such as with the Ni sentence. frustrating

I actaully can't even begin on the other things you were explianing...I will have to let them sit before I have any type of opinion on them.

 

[INTP]

entj's do have Fe. It is just subconcious. Everytype has every cognitive function, some are just shadow.(This right here<----stating the obvious) My Fe is probably more prominant than that of a regular ENTJ.(This is what i meant by "my Fe is really hyperactive" like i don't have control over it...but when it's there it's crazy, which is something I KNEW I WAS GOING TO BE CORRECTED ON right after i hit the quick reply button.) we will come back to this...another thing i needed to be corrected on was Ni and whether it was a thought. Your words exactly " Ni gives sense of overall picture." I replaced picture with the word idea. So now that that's clarified whether I was right or wrong...I did not think I had to explain those things. <----that right there ...is the problem i have talking to Ti ...they disect everything...and we wind up coming to the same conclusion...at least most of the time...such as with the Ni sentence. frustrating

I actaully can't even begin on the other things you were explianing...I will have to let them sit before I have any type of opinion on them.

yes all types have all functions, but the functions are T S F N, not Fi Fe Si Se etc. this whole shadow function thing is neither MBTI or jungian typology, its seen in beebes model, lenores model and maybe some other i cant recall at the moment, but for some reason its spread over the internets and its an common mistake for people who only study typology from forums to think that we are using 8 functions. and the definition of functions in 8 function models neither follows the definitions of MBTI or jungs functions.

from official MBTI site:

Understanding MBTI® Type Dynamics


Type is more than just the sum of the four preferences. The four-letter MBTI® type formula is a shorthand way of telling you about the interaction of your four mental functions and which ones you prefer to use first. This is called type dynamics, and it is an important part of understanding your MBTI® results. Below are some basic facts about type dynamics.

One preference has the most influence on you. This is called the dominant function.

The next strongest preference is called the auxiliary function. It is important because it serves to support and balance the dominant.


The third strongest is the tertiary function.


One preference is the least strong. This is the fourth function, often called the inferior function.

this "Fe" you are talking about is most likely your Fi + Te or Se.

you see:

Archaic
Primal or original. (See also participation mystique.)


Every civilized human being, however high his conscious development, is still an archaic man at the deeper levels of his psyche.["Archaic Man," CW 10, par. 105]

In anthropology, the term archaic is generally descriptive of primitive psychology. Jung used it when referring to thoughts, fantasies and feelings that are not consciously differentiated.

Archaism attaches primarily to the fantasies of the unconscious, i.e., to the products of unconscious fantasy activity which reach consciousness. An image has an archaic quality when it possesses unmistakable mythological parallels. Archaic, too, are the associations-by-analogy of unconscious fantasy, and so is their symbolism. The relation of identity with an object, or participation mystique, is likewise archaic. Concretism of thought and feeling is archaic; also compulsion and inability to control oneself (ecstatic or trance state, possession, etc.). Fusion of the psychological functions, of thinking with feeling, feeling with sensation, feeling with intuition, and so on, is archaic, as is also the fusion of part of a function with its counterpart.["Definitions," CW 6, par. 684.]

i should clarify that T is counterpart/opposite of F and S of N

For me, sensation and intuition represent a pair of opposites, or two mutually compensating functions, like thinking and feeling. Thinking and feeling as independent functions are developed, both ontogenetically and phylogenetically, from sensation (and equally, of course, from intuition as the necessary counterpart of sensation).

and from journal of analytical psychology http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17970938

so no, you werent stating the obvious, you just thought you were, since you didnt know better, but naturally thought that you know better

ps. its the Fi that is in the shadow of Te, not Ti or Fe, its just that Fi effecting Te from shadow might make it seem as if your F were extraverted

edit. you should also understand the jungian definition of opposites this if you are interested in typology, its pretty much the corner stone of it all:

Opposites
Psychologically, the ego and the unconscious. (See also compensation, conflict, progression and transcendent function.)


There is no consciousness without discrimination of opposites.["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 178.]

There is no form of human tragedy that does not in some measure proceed from [the] conflict between the ego and the unconscious.["Analytical Psychology and Weltanschauung," CW 8, par. 706.]

Whatever attitude exists in the conscious mind, and whichever psychological function is dominant, the opposite is in the unconscious. This situation seldom precipitates a crisis in the first half of life. But for older people who reach an impasse, characterized by a one-sided conscious attitude and the blockage of energy, it is necessary to bring to light psychic contents that have been repressed.

The repressed content must be made conscious so as to produce a tension of opposites, without which no forward movement is possible. The conscious mind is on top, the shadow underneath, and just as high always longs for low and hot for cold, so all consciousness, perhaps without being aware of it, seeks its unconscious opposite, lacking which it is doomed to stagnation, congestion, and ossification. Life is born only of the spark of opposites.["The Problem of the Attitude-Type," CW 7, par. 78.]

This in turn activates the process of compensation, which leads to an irrational “third,” the transcendent function.

Out of [the] collision of opposites the unconscious psyche always creates a third thing of an irrational nature, which the conscious mind neither expects nor understands. It presents itself in a form that is neither a straight “yes” nor a straight “no.”["The Psychology of the Child Archetype," CW 9i, par. 285."The Psychology of the Child Archetype," CW 9i, par. 285.]

Jung explained the potential renewal of the personality in terms of the principle of entropy in physics, according to which transformations of energy in a relatively closed system take place, and are only possible, as a result of differences in intensity.

Psychologically, we can see this process at work in the development of a lasting and relatively unchanging attitude. After violent oscillations at the beginning the opposites equalize one another, and gradually a new attitude develops, the final stability of which is the greater in proportion to the magnitude of the initial differences. The greater the tension between the pairs of opposites, the greater will be the energy that comes from them . . . [and] the less chance is there of subsequent disturbances which might arise from friction with material not previously constellated.["On Psychic Energy," CW 8, par. 49.]

Some degree of tension between consciousness and the unconsciousness is both unavoidable and necessary. The aim of analysis is therefore not to eliminate the tension but rather to understand the role it plays in the self-regulation of the psyche. Moreover, the assimilation of unconscious contents results in the ego becoming responsible for what was previously unconscious. There is thus no question of anyone ever being completely at peace.

The united personality will never quite lose the painful sense of innate discord. Complete redemption from the sufferings of this world is and must remain an illusion. Christ’s earthly life likewise ended, not in complacent bliss, but on the cross.["The Psychology of the Transference," CW 16, par. 400.]

Jung further believed that anyone who attempts to deal with the problem of the opposites on a personal level is making a significant contribution toward world peace.

The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate. That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner opposite, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposing halves.["Christ, A Symbol of the Self," CW 9ii, par. 126.]

[MENTION=6724]DiscoBiscuit[/MENTION] this jungs definition of opposite is a perfect example how one well defined word can make communication much easier, as long as the definition is shared between people. you see there is a reason for us to nitpick definitions, if i were to talk of opposites and you just thought opposite is right - left, up - down etc, you wouldnt understand what i am talking of and would misunderstand what i am saying. however if i share the definition with you, we can talk about this aspect of the psyche much easier, without me having to explain walls of text every time i want to use the term 'opposite' when talking of psyche.

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

Oh dear god. THIS IS WHY WE DON'T DATE YOU PEOPLE!!!!

 

[INTP]

Oh dear god. THIS IS WHY WE DON'T DATE YOU PEOPLE!!!!

i dont blame you, complex thinking does make the head hurt if it overloads brains too much. who would like to date someone who makes your head hurt?

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

i dont blame you, complex thinking does make the head hurt if it overloads brains too much. who would like to date someone who makes your head hurt?

Zomg humans feel? Think? Are intuitive? have sensations?!?!

 

[INTP]

Zomg humans feel? Think? Are intuitive? have sensations?!?!

yep, glad i was able to clear that out

 

[Evo]

so no, you werent stating the obvious, you just thought you were, since you didnt know better, but naturally thought that you know better

ps. its the Fi that is in the shadow of Te, not Ti or Fe, its just that Fi effecting Te from shadow might make it seem as if your F were extraverted

See it feels like what you're saying is that because we don't agree with your point of view "we don't knowany better" because I'm talking about Lenore and the perception I have gotten from reading that....and are you're talking about Jung in a pure sense? if so it's still the perception you have of it....

 

[Working On It]

Argh!!!!!!! Reading this thread makes me long for yesteryears. Husband ENTJ Son INTP. As my husband mellowed with age and my son matured they were very happy running the family business together. Coffee was the answer to everything. Stopping on the way home to brainstorm problems outside the office both could relax and appreciate what the other brought to the table. Husband established the principles and goals, while Son incorporated new ideas and technologies to fulfill those principles and goals, thus enhancing customer satisfaction.

Don't know how it would play out in a male/female relationship, but they are an amazing father and son team.

 

[ajackson17]

Never met a female ENTJ in real life and probably haven't met a female rational in real life, I just know a whole bunch of SP's and SJ's

 

[Evo]

Argh!!!!!!! Reading this thread makes me long for yesteryears. Husband ENTJ Son INTP. As my husband mellowed with age and my son matured they were very happy running the family business together. Coffee was the answer to everything. Stopping on the way home to brainstorm problems outside the office both could relax and appreciate what the other brought to the table. Husband established the principles and goals, while Son incorporated new ideas and technologies to fulfill those principles and goals, thus enhancing customer satisfaction.

Don't know how it would play out in a male/female relationship, but they are an amazing father and son team.

That does sound awesome!

If the roles were reversed and an ENTJ was the son, INTP the father, do you think it would still be an amazing team?

 

[Working On It]

It would depend on the business. If a INTP father were more visionary, and the son loved the over all direction of the father's ideas and plans and wanted to run with it...it might work just as well. I think the key is maturity of both parties. And of course coffee.

It was over coffee Son could expound on ideas to revise a standard procedure, when Father wasn't in the heat of pressing forward toward the end of a taxing day. It was where Son knew his ideas were being heard and seriously considered. It was also a place where Father could explain to Son his need for quick closure or rigidity in some areas. Son loved learning the business, and Father loved seeing his dream realized in a more current form. There was a mutual respect for each other's differences. Coffee was a non competitive place, a neutral zone, a table enjoyed by a father and son, no caste.


With that type of maturity why couldn't the opposite be equally rewarding?

 

[Evo]

It would depend on the business. If a INTP father were more visionary, and the son loved the over all direction of the father's ideas and plans and wanted to run with it...it might work just as well. I think the key is maturity of both parties. And of course coffee.

It was over coffee Son could expound on ideas to revise a standard procedure, when Father wasn't in the heat of pressing forward toward the end of a taxing day. It was where Son knew his ideas were being heard and seriously considered. It was also a place where Father could explain to Son his need for quick closure or rigidity in some areas. Son loved learning the business, and Father loved seeing his dream realized in a more current form. There was a mutual respect for each other's differences. Coffee was a non competitive place, a neutral zone, a table enjoyed by a father and son, no caste.


With that type of maturity why couldn't the opposite be equally rewarding?

good point, it probably is based on maturity. And both of them enjoying the business. I was just thinking how long would it be until an entj son would be tired of not be the one in charge. lol

just wanted another opinion. I guess it wouldn't really matter because they would both probably get what they wanted out of the relationship if they were mature enough.

 

[rav3n]

For anyone who doesn't believe an INTP-ENTJ relationship can work, take a look at this ENTJ self-portrait off the Beren's site that EricB's provided. You should be able to clearly recognise why it can work.

http://www.careerplanner.com/Berens-Nardi/ENTJ-SelfPortrait.cfm

 

[fripping]

they're almost sort of on the right track they just talk and move around too much and that's all there is to it as far as i'm concerned. i prefer the introverted models. slow your damn roll.

 

[Salomé]

For anyone who doesn't believe an INTP-ENTJ relationship can work, take a look at this ENTJ self-portrait off the Beren's site that EricB's provided. You should be able to clearly recognise why it can work.

http://www.careerplanner.com/Berens-Nardi/ENTJ-SelfPortrait.cfm

You're trying too hard to convince us.
That will never work.

 

[rav3n]

You're trying too hard to convince us.
That will never work.

This erroneously assumes I care about your opinion.

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

This erroneously assumes I care about your opinion.

She is INTP after all. She represents the general demographic that you're trying to convince.

 

[WheresMyBunnies]

From experience of course, and I'll admit, riddled with bias:

• 
  
• Just goes along with w.e. If an argument occurs, they just shrug it off, or become passive aggressive. They're generally not willing to get into arguments( not necessarily yelling/breaking down a conversation), just anything that they feel is a criticism of them.
• 
  
• If they do argue, it is rare, and they have a tendency of latching on to small insignificant detail and become blinded to the bigger picture, which is immensely frustrating when they can't get past it.
• 
  
• They don't seem to be initiators either, which is a complete turn off. Want something, go get it, fight tooth and nail for it.
• 
  
• They also have a habit of not "understanding basic things" in relationships, if I noticed anything on this forum, it is the invalidation of other's beliefs( and I don't mean just religious). So many threads about neglectant INTP partners who can't comprehend why their partner requires their presence every once in a while, or why they want to celebrate birthdays, or go out for dinner. It almost appears as if because they don't understand the joy another experiences with a belief/desire, they are unwilling to experience it with their partner or refuse to acknowledge it as a valid conviction for their partner. It's this odd mixture of dismissive judgment with a hint of entitlement. Then there are some on the complete other spectrum, who do not have an opinion on anything, which isn't remotely asfrustrating.
• 
  
• Some also seem to be rather lazy, as in, wishing someone else can take the wheel, take care of them, or on the opposite side, have to 'take care' of someone as little as possible, which is not my personal preference in a relationship.
  

Of course, this is all judgment on my part. It's more of my dislike for them as partners than anything. I like ambition, a trait that is rare to find in coasting INTPs.

For an "brainy" type, they sure are clueless.

Example of oblivious INTPs :"I stare at this girl all the time, why does she think I like her?". Jesus fucking christ.


More aware and mature INTPS make great friends though, since I expect next to nothing.
I effing love fiery INTPs though. They feisty humorous(non emo) ones are amazing to have as platonic friends.

Salome and Jockthemotie are great examples of INTPs whose posts I always enjoy reading.

<waits for picky INTP rage>

Seems like younger INTPs. I've been oblivious for a long period of my younger years. It however seems like that, men my age grow into what I was in my younger years. And I seem to do the opposite. I see many men that stop developing their behaviors as they grow older and seem defiant in changing their ways. And single men particularly, they seem like stereotypes to me. Probably why I feel alienated from most men my age.

On the topic, I see great prospects in both ENTJ and ENFJ women for adult INTP males

 

[Cellmold]

When I think of men, I don't think of INTPs. Then again, ENTJ males don't really do it for me either; sorry brethrens.

Indeed?

What does do it for you? Do tell.