[INTJ] INTJs and Groupthink

[sculpting]

In large corporate settings I have noticed a few INTJs bring a vision to the table but then as it is implemented, mandate a sort of groupthink around the vision. Instead of surrounding themselves with people who would challenge the vision, the ones I have watched instead surround themselves with those who either cant intellectually challenge the idea or who are afraid to stand up to the INTJ. They surround themselves with "good" people who affirm the tertiary Fi of the INTJ and the morale rightness of the vision being implemented. To find the "good" people they will spend months interviewing. To the INTJ, it almost seems like the the inner circle becomes a family to which he has paternal control and thus should receive paternal affirmation? (And I admit I will always love my INTJ dad, even as I shake my head and dont agree with his ideas-but I wont argue with him, because I love him? He is mostly right most of the time )

Problematically, the implementation of what was a good vision, then goes awry and since it is in a large organization, it goes very badly awry. But since the INTJ removed all of the people who would troubleshoot the flaws,or perhaps feed him the relevant Se data points to course correct? there isnt anyone to help course correct. If someone does stand up, in classic groupthink mentality, the whole group turns against them, and the INTJ assumes it is a individual values problem, not a logistical problem.

Some of the inner circle really do believe in the vision, and some are just "milking the cow while the milking is good".


Not meaning to pick on the INTJs-in general they are wonderful, but after watching this cycle a couple of times it sorta seems to be a repeating pattern-was interested to see if anyone else had observed it or things like it. How does one prevent this? Its odd as normally on an individual level INTJs seem to enjoy being challenged on their ideas.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Fascinating.

My own father is some form of TJ (I'd guessed STJ, but that may be inaccurate). I have noticed that, in his social circles, hobby groups, etc, he tends to put himself in charge (if possible) and tries to surround himself with people who share his "vision" and overall goals for the group.

When people in his inner circle no longer share his vision, he discards them or tries to discredit them in the eyes of the other group members.

 

[Jaguar]

Frankly, I think a lot of so-called INTJs are ISTJs. The "we" mentality is more SJ, rather than NT. I may puke if I read one more "we" posted in this place from those claiming to be NTs. "Weeeeeee."
If one is truly an independent thinker, their mental shotgun will usually take aim at groupthink.

Good to see you posting again, Puppy.

 

[Chthonic]

This people in general. Not some special INTJ failing. No-one likes having their idea's challenged and poo-pooed by others. I've spoken up about stupid shit at work, pointing out how it's a flawed thing and been shot down. Only to watch the flawed thing be championed and then ultimately fail for reasons that seemed obvious to me. It's not as if INTJs are the only ones blinded by their awesomeness.

 

[big sexy]

This people in general. Not some special INTJ failing. No-one likes having their idea's challenged and poo-pooed by others. I've spoken up about stupid shit at work, pointing out how it's a flawed thing and been shot down. Only to watch the flawed thing be championed and then ultimately fail for reasons that seemed obvious to me. It's not as if INTJs are the only ones blinded by their awesomeness.

Yeah, this doesn't sound type related exactly. In fact, I would think - based on stereotypes admittedly - that INTJs would be one of the types more likely to go against group think and want people around who can criticize them/set them straight. But people are people, and most people prefer to be around others who they get along with. It feels good when people agree with you and it can be difficult to have your ideas brought under fire, especially if it's something important to you. In a way, it makes sense - if you're trying to implement some specific goal, you will want people around who also share that goal in order to help implement it. But you can't be so blinded that you refuse any criticism and become inflexible. It can be hard to admit when you're wrong, when you've made mistakes. Perhaps this is something INTJs especially struggle with? I don't know.

 

[BadOctopus]

I can't speak for other INTJs, because I haven't known any who were in leadership positions. I think to some degree, we all like being agreed with. But on the whole, I don't mind when my ideas are challenged, and I usually don't mind being proven wrong. It may sting a little sometimes, but knowing the truth is more important to me than being right.

I have known a couple of ENTJs who behave as you described. My father being one of them. You're only of use to him if you agree with him and do his bidding.

 

[Nicodemus]

Its odd as normally on an individual level INTJs seem to enjoy being challenged on their ideas.

Talking about ideas and implementing visions are different things; one comes after the other. So when the stage of implementation has been reached, I would assume an INTJ to be reasonably sure it will work out, meaning troubleshooting is no longer necessary, so that people's attempts to engage in it regardless present but a superfluous nuisance.

PS: Welcome back.

 

[Lark]

People usually have a keen eye for others "group think" and never realise their own or think they'd only ever be in opposition to the same sort of thing if it occured in their social circle or reflected the shades of their opinions.

 

[highlander]

In large corporate settings I have noticed a few INTJs bring a vision to the table but then as it is implemented, mandate a sort of groupthink around the vision. Instead of surrounding themselves with people who would challenge the vision, the ones I have watched instead surround themselves with those who either cant intellectually challenge the idea or who are afraid to stand up to the INTJ. They surround themselves with "good" people who affirm the tertiary Fi of the INTJ and the morale rightness of the vision being implemented. To find the "good" people they will spend months interviewing. To the INTJ, it almost seems like the the inner circle becomes a family to which he has paternal control and thus should receive paternal affirmation? (And I admit I will always love my INTJ dad, even as I shake my head and dont agree with his ideas-but I wont argue with him, because I love him? He is mostly right most of the time )

Problematically, the implementation of what was a good vision, then goes awry and since it is in a large organization, it goes very badly awry. But since the INTJ removed all of the people who would troubleshoot the flaws,or perhaps feed him the relevant Se data points to course correct? there isnt anyone to help course correct. If someone does stand up, in classic groupthink mentality, the whole group turns against them, and the INTJ assumes it is a individual values problem, not a logistical problem.

Some of the inner circle really do believe in the vision, and some are just "milking the cow while the milking is good".


Not meaning to pick on the INTJs-in general they are wonderful, but after watching this cycle a couple of times it sorta seems to be a repeating pattern-was interested to see if anyone else had observed it or things like it. How does one prevent this? Its odd as normally on an individual level INTJs seem to enjoy being challenged on their ideas.

On the "inner circle" and "family" aspect - yes, I do experience that. On surrounding with people who think a similar way, I think I have probably seen STJs do that a fair bit more. All types can be guilty of it though. I personally surround myself with people who provide different perspectives intentionally. Once we establish a vision and direction though, you would want people who would help to execute on that yes. That doesn't mean you want to just bring in people who think the same. I've always been one to value diversity of talents, perspectives and abilities. As an aside, I'm often the one at work pushing/nudging the course correction because things aren't working or going to achieve the right end result. Sometimes people get tunnel vision and are headed in the wrong direction. It doesn't mean I have to have all or even most of the answers, but I know enough to realize things aren't headed right and get people to talk about how to course correct. I have to be careful on how often I do that though because too many changes in direction can be disruptive.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Its odd as normally on an individual level INTJs seem to enjoy being challenged on their ideas.

Ideas yes, visions no. What [MENTION=10757]Nicodemus[/MENTION] said is the most concise summary.

 

[~ReggieRebel~]

first, i dont always like being in charge. its a lot of work. I prefer to advise the one in control, and let them know when things are likely heading in a direction that is different than their origional intent. I would like to think that i am considerately careful. Nitpicking about all of the minutae means their ears are worn out for when something really needs to be pointed out.

when i am leading something, i like to do my main planning in private. i send folks info, let them go over it if they want and then meet up. i get extreemly uncomfortable when everyone around is a yess sayer. to the extent that i will often try to keep one person who is harder to convince, someone not quick to jump on the bandwagon, on my team/aware of whats going on. Does it mean i execute all my plans perfectly and never have personality (and personal) clashes with said indoviduals? of course not. i like being told no and this wont work nearly as much as the next person.

Which is i suppose, why i like to know rules and the framework for what to do when things get out of hand ....before they actually get out of and. knowing who my boses are above me, and who is under me, and the limits of my power, and the importance of the goal and what the objectives are, mean that when things get ugly, its damages are more likely to be minimized. i like to see that everything is as solid as can be so that when a crack appears, the team is less likely to automatically ouy both baby and bathwater. Means eating humble pie a few times, but if in the end the objective is reached....mission accomplished. by that i mean, when i was young, my natural tendency was to say reaching the goal at all coats is the objective. these days i continually reason to myself that when I run over people and their ideas, the statistical probability of what i am trying to accomplish lasting (and the likelyhood that another of my ideas is implemented by these same individuals) gets greatly diminished.

 

[~ReggieRebel~]

Also, have to agree that there is a world of difference between vision....or the purpose behind the action, and choosing the action that will bring about the realization of the groups purpose. I'm young enough to still think that most cooperate planning sessions are about deciding what the next action to fulfill the purpose is. (Ie what is the next big idea). Then the trickle down effect happens where floor and department managers are sometimes told, and sometimes invited to find their own ideas about how to achieve the cooperate purpose. I would think it rare for the staple guy or photocopy girl to be required to give input on what the purpose for the company's existance should be....but they may have ideas regarding which equally priced copier would best suit.
Everything is tied together in a well run company. Big international corporate purpose...then the city, then the building, department, floor, cubicle...and so-on and so-forth.

Sorry, I went on a bit of a tangent. I said my first sentence to say that my vision is personal and internal. It drives everything I do. When I make corporate suggestions (ideas on how to implement) I will accept criticism with as good a grace as I can muster. The how (implimentation) is up for discussion. But Critique my why (my reason for wanting to act) too many times, (ESP if without first earning my respect, ) and the claws will begin to protract. The more this goes on, the harder I have to self talk about what I'm not going to do to and the less ill hear what the irritant is saying. And when the cat finally makes her move, it's sudden, and deadly.