Ti governs selection and honing of ideas. If the INTP is mature (if Ti is well-fed and well-informed by Ne of the ways of the world), then the INTP can express his/her Ti ideas in the world in a manner that suits real-world conventions for maximum effect...
Ti Ti is internally and individualistically oriented. It does not have much regard for the external world.
And the mode of expression needn't be criticism. If the Ti is well-informed by his Ne, the INTP will have a number of real-world conventional modes of expression just like anyone else....
Thinking is criticism by definition. The INTP however may present it as what appears to be non-criticism to Feelers. We are talking about different things with the word criticism. Thinking is by definition of itself corrective, it seeks emendation in all things it encounters. Yet you seem to equate criticism with negative emotion directed at the other person. This has nothign to do with Ti, it is the property of Fe.
On the other hand, if Ti is isolated and Ne isn't informing it of real-world conventions, Ti won't be able to express itself as described above.....
Yes, if the Ti is not well in tune with the Ne, the INTP will not collect much more information that is necessary for analysis. One of the likely consequences is that the INTP will not be able to manipulate the convention to his advantage.
The modes of expression will be increasingly maladaptive. Defensiveness will probably be at the base of the maladaptiveness, although the Ti thought can be expressed any number of maladaptive ways including rants and pre-emptive attacks......
There were no attacks, thats your Fness playing tricks on you. Or in other words, you're trying to see what is not there to give affirmation to your feelings.
INFPs work much the same way. If Dominant Fi is isolated and Auxiliary Ne isn't informing Fi of real-world conventions, the way of expressing Fi values will become increasingly maladaptive. ......
Correct, as I have mentioned in my INFP profile---INPs who do not make sound use of their Extroverted Intuition will not be able to apply their ideas to the external world properly.
Let me pick on INFPs first. I'm an INFP with an INFP wife, and I've even had INFP subordinates in the workplace. (In fact, my interest in this subject and thread springs from wanting to get a better handle on immature INFP Auxiliary for purposes of my marriage.)
Anyway, I feel I can quickly identify a couple easy and notable examples of immature INFP maladaptive use of Ne, ranging from almost playful to thoughtless and potentially destructive. For example, 1) Whimsicality can be entirely playful, but it can also be used in a "dazzle 'em with your footwork" manner to turn up one's nose at critics; 2) Immature INFPs can also make extravagant and even ridiculous claims to spiritual or personal insight or extravagant crusadership in a "baffle 'em with your bullshit" manner when subjected to more direct criticism; 3) When feeling put upon, INFPs can play the victim so convincingly that even they believe it, with or without any real foundation to the claim; if pressed on the point, the INFP can drum up paranoid and far-reaching rationales to defend their victimhood.......
This shows evidence of Fi self-apotheosis, thats one thing I mentioned Introverted Judgers who should watch out for. INFPs are more susceptible to this problem because of their more personally oriented nature than INTPs. This problem is indeed germane to unhealthy INFPs, yet it should not be attributed strictly to lack of sound Ne functioning. It should be attributed to the INFP having failed to find a higher purpose who then turns inwards for self-worship. An off-balance INP will avoid many of those problems if he has found a higher purpose.
Though almost infallible evidence of a lack of sound Ne functioning would be inability to interact with the external world.
We should keep in mind that what you've cited is indeed often a consequence of a malfunctioning of a sort, however the malfunctioning is an abstract process within our cognitive unconscious tendencies. Therefore it does not have to manifest in any specific fashion, as it can show itself in a myriad of other ways. Hence, it is a mistake to think that when we see this or that act from an INP, it always follows that they must have this or that particular mindset going on. Discovering the mindset they have going on requires further inquiry into their unconscious tendencies.
Parallels for an immature INTP using Ne maladaptively: 1) Playful derision, role-playing, word play, and logic play that can be used in a "dazzle 'em with your footwork" manner to turn up one's nose at critics (IOW where a Ti idea is expressed, but couched maladaptively in the sense of retaining deniability and having the option of turning accusation or misunderstandings back on the listener); 2) Using cutting derision together with claims of special insight when pressed more closely; 3) Rigid insistence on a lone principle, sometimes to the point of absurdity, using fantastic and far-reaching sophistry of the angels-dancing-on-head-of-a-pin type to defend the principle........
-What feelers perceive as destructive criticism--this is a property of the negative Fe showing itself. That is indeed highly correlated with a Ti over-drive which eclipses Ne. So yes, you can correlate this with a lack of sound Ne functioning.
-Following principles rigidly yes, as then the INTP isnt able to adapt to the outer world because of a lack of Ne functioning. However, your notion of far-reaching sophistry is slightly inconsistent with your claim that they follow principles rigidly. As sophistry is likely incompatible with their principles. Though INTPs who are afflicted with self-apotheosis, just like immature INFPs may be can and very often do have self-serving principles which may allow this.
Again, these tactics aren't maladaptive because of the presence or absence of legitimacy in the Ti idea they are expressing. (A careful listener can usually find a legitimate idea or need of some sort lurking behind the defensiveness and BS of the mode of expression.) Rather, they are maladaptive because the mode of expression doesn't take into account real-world conventions. ........
Generally, off-balance INPs express things they express not because they want to communicate, but simply because they see this as means to the end of furthering their internal goal which is almost wholly oblivious to the expectations of the outer world. Doesnt necessarily need to be BS, though often not relevant to the concerns of the external world. Hence, your criticism of obliviousness to real world conventions, on this account is very fitting. As we have established, the INP is not well in tune with them first and foremost because of his lack of attunement with Extroverted Judgment---as that is his inferior function, and because of his inability to engage with the outer world. However, an INP who could do well to engage with the outer world would not need to adapt the conventional code of ethics with the Extroverted Judgment, but merely use Ne to collect information for its own sake. That way he will simply become aware of the convention and manage to play around it to his own advantage.
And I consider these examples to be Ne-related much the same as their INFP counterparts: they smack of the playfulness of ENFPs or fencing of ENTPs, albeit in a less skilled and more defensive capacity....
Yes, playful defensiveness is not at all uncommon among off-balance INPs. As we notice Ne is playful by nature of itself and it is used by the INP strictly to guard his inner world.
PersonalityPage.com basically sets adaptability to Fe real-world conventions as the acid test for measuring maturity of a given INTP. (See below.) The more an INTP adapts to real-world conventions in his manner of expression, the more evidence he demonstrates of maturity and a Ti properly informed by Ne.....
You've got to be careful here FineLine. There is a fine distinction between an INTP who is not able to adapt to real world conventions and the one who opts not to.
Why would somebody say that an INTP who is able to adapt to real world conventions is necessarily well-balanced. Because mastering this skill requires proficiency with the inferior function. In order to develop that one, we must develop all others. Hence, if we see an INTP with a well developed Extroverted Judgment it almost always means that he is well developed in every other aspect of his psyche.
However, we should take a careful note that INPs as primarily Introverted Judgment oriented type tend not to enjoy the convention or Extroverted Judgment as that is their least natural mode of functioning--despite that this is the skill they may have mastered.
As I have mentioned, our states of mind are inherent within our unconscious tendencies which manifest in a myriad of unspecifiable concrete fashions. Therefore you cannot claim that this or that concrete behavior corresponds only with this or that unconscious tendency, as such an action could easily correspond with a myriad of other unconscious tendencies. As for example, you can say that inability to play the convention to our advantage in some cases suggests the INP either has not entirely developed all of his functions, so he lacks the skill with the Extroverted Judgment. Or it also could be that he has it well developed but it simply off balance now because he is stuck in the Introverted phase. Or you could even see the same act manifest in an off-balance ENP for different reasons. Or even a stressed INJ who utilizes the auxiliary function to self-serving ends.
So, what we have here is one concrete action. By this we cannot have much reliable knowledge about what unconscious tendency it represents, to see that we'd have to do more probing into the psychology of our cognition.
Conversely, use of only one or two abrasive or derisive modes of expressing ideas would be strong evidence of an immature INTP whose Ti is isolated and uninformed by Ne......
Yes, one could argue that since Ne always seeks out novels ways to perceive abstractions, an INP who does not tend to do things in many different ways is not practicing Ne to the due degree. It can mean immaturity, that the Ne is simply not available there, though this tends to be rare in INPs over the age of 13, as we begin to develop our auxiliary in the second decade of our lives. It can also mean an intense focus on Introverted Judgment. Or to a greater degree, an off balance functioning in general. As well as myriad of other possible explanations. Based on this concrete observation alone, we dont know which one it is, for that we'd need to do further inquiry into the nature of mind itself. Though this does suggest one thing however, that Ne was not used on that occassion,to the capacity we can expect an INP to use it.
One sees INTPs with huge differences in their adaptability to Fe conventions at INTP-C and even here. Some INTPs have only one or two modes of basic expression (monotone, derision, abrasiveness, sophistry, etc). Others are clearly better able to adapt their tone and manner to the context and the audience, signaling a better awareness of real-world conventions and a higher level of type-related maturity.......
We should not attribute this strictly to Fe however, but also to Ne. As Extroverted perception allows us to adapt to the ambience of the environment. Thats why ENPs are often natural performers. Thus an INTP does not need to be fully mature, or have developed all functions to be able to adapt to the audience. Yes, this will require some knowledge of the social conventions which are primarily associated with Extroverted Judgment--yet, the INP does not need to be fluent with them in order to communicate effectively to a broad range of observers. He merely needs to be informed of them and this can be accomplished through Ne.
Which brings me to my criticisms of you in particular. You operate almost solely in a dry, critical mode and admit to a "fetish for criticizing." Justify it anyway you want, but traditionally that kind of long-term unwillingness to tailor your tone to the audience is evidence of immaturity and lack of adaptability to Fe real-world conventions.......
Look more carefully...you'd see my posts have gotten more dynamic over the last few months..
And I've tailored plenty even in this post..
Also, the point about Fe being a "natural weak point" for INTPs (from the PersonalityPage.com quote above) makes your protestations about the insincerity of Fe in INFJs seem all the more overdone: ".........
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I will admit that this was somewhat of a stunt...
I am not at all disgusted, I notice as I become more comfortable with my Ne I start to present for an effect of some kind...I think thats a good objection to your previous charge.
appeasing their own vainglory..."".........
I am amused that you took for this to be a genuine expression of my personal attitudes..
"...its manifest to me that they're putting on an act..." "Their crime, in this respect is against the essence of feeling." An INTP dogging INFJs about a petty issue like immature use of their Auxiliary smacks of immaturity on the INTP's part...."".........
Really..the protesting part was overdone for shock value..
Though if this were an expression of my attitudes you would be able to make the observation that has been long cited in many INTP profiles--that INTPs who are out of tune with the external world because of their malfunctioning Ne will have disproportionate emotions to the current situation. As they are emoting to their inner world and not what they observed outside.
I'm sure you're aware that I have other reasons (personal perceptions of your intellectual style) that make me doubt whether you're using your Ne maturely. We have argued them previously to some extent. But I'll stop here. The post is running long; and if none of my arguments thus far get through to you, then more of the same won't help....."".........
Wasnt much on the way of arguments, though some good observations. The only mistake you seem to have made was missing the facetious and light-hearted aspect of my protestation. Though it seems to me that your claims are centered around the notion that I dont adapt to the audience. Thats just not true...read more of my posts and compare them to what I wrote on INTPc a year ago..you'll see a big difference...
Though..the protestation did bear a lurid semblance on those old posts..back then those were serious expressions of my attitudes..here it was ill-fated humor at best...
So..what I am thinking is..if your arguments really are founded on that 'protestation of mine'..you're probably off..I dont think my writing is all that dry really..either. You're welcome to send me more of your arguments..though I dont quite see the relevance. This thread is about immature INFJs, yet you come here to psychologize me.
Though I did find that interesting nonetheless, however, I think it would be better if you PMed them to me.
I would like to make one request, though. I've tried to describe a couple examples of how INTPs and INFPs tend to demonstrate immature Ne as a defensive or maladaptive mechanism (IMO, of course). No matter if you agree with me or not on whether those examples are Ne-based, I would still be interested if you could provide some similar detail and examples as to how you perceive immature use of Auxiliary Fe in INFJs. I have my own perception of Fe in INFJs, but Fe isn't my Inferior so my perception of it is rather vague. I mainly just notice immature Auxiliary Fe in its most extreme form, when INFJs occasionally get rigid and angry on some specific issue of importance to them. As long as the subject is in play, I would be curious to hear some examples of what exactly you're perceiving as immature Fe in INFJs.
Generally it manifests in INFJs expressing emotion without bothering to make sure they have processed it internally. As well as use it as means to the end of furtherance of their vision. Thats where the Ni enslaves Fe..
Its very basic..the typical flaw of unhealthy Fe--or expressing without feeling through..and the flaw of Fe subservience to a different function. Here the Fe will be an instrument to carry out some Ni scheme..
Nothing wrong with a little pride in your insight when it reaches a new level of clarity or even clairvoyance.
