[INFJ] INFJ Use of Ti While Socializing

[meb2828]

Hi! new member here. I've never been a part of any forum so bare with me.

I assume I have a hard time using Fe and Ti together (i.e. Being rational, or being able to collect my thoughts in general, when I'm speaking with people.) It's not like I am like this every time I'm around people, but often enough to note. Though when I'm alone, I can spit things out magically. I can never really be myself around people because it's hard for me to think straight about what I really think/feel. I have some social anxiety revolved around this.

Maybe it's because when exercising Fe, Ni is noticing 1000 things a minute about the person(s) I'm interacting with. So Ti just doesn't know how to push its way into my head during these situation. Who knows. I often end up saying stuff that doesn't make sense, or can't remember facts to back up my positions. I love contemplation big topic issues, but because of this, find it hard to talk about the things I'm passionate about. I just end up speaking irrationally and becoming increasingly frustrated. Creating a cycle, if you will. My irrationality makes me frustrated, and my frustration adds to my irrationality, and it inevitably just gets worse until I give up on myself.

Do any of you INFJ's relate to this? I'm merely 18 so hopefully this will pass in time. But if there's a way to work on it, I would love suggestions. Articles related to this topic would also be appreciated too. Thanks!

 

[Fidelia]

Usually tertiary functions develop as you get older. I identify with the struggle even though I have had others say I'm a fairly Ti heavy infj. I'm not sure that you can specifically work on certain functions. It's maybe a matter more of becoming self assured in various settings so that less silly stuff crops up as a result of unsureness or discomfort.

@umlauu might have some thoughts on this though.

 

[Norrsken]

This is something I still struggle with when socializing with other people, and I'm 25! I think the best advice is to keep practicing, even when it frustrates you to no end, once you keep exposing yourself to the parts of yourself that you feel uncomfortable with (ie. social anxiety), you feel more confident speaking with people. Remember that it is okay to think before speaking; I sometimes try and fill the gaps of silence between me and the other person because I want to seem "adjusted" or whatever, lol, but it just never works and I just word vomit all over the person. Or mumble like an idiot, whichever comes first.

 

[Forever]

[MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] (look at post #2) [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] (I gotchu )

OP:
I did, and still do from time to time. You just got to meet people over and over and accept that you'll make mistakes. When I'm comfortable with people enough and not overthink about it, I achieve a zen state sort of mind. Some people are just energy sappers too, so I just cut my conversation short when it's too awkward or if I feel uneasy not because I'm nervous, but there's just something wrong about them.

 

[uumlau]

In my experience, most INFJs who think/say that they "use Ti a lot" or are "Ti heavy" are mistaking personality traits for cognitive tendencies. Ni-Fe and Ni-Te tend to be associated with smart, intellectual people because ALL INxx types have a high frequency of being smart intellectual people. The INFJ types do NOT "use Ti" to be "smart" and the INFPs do not "use Te" to be "smart". The Ni, Fi, and Ti doms can all be very smart, and if Fi or Ti is combined with Ne, then that intelligence is applied to abstract ideas. There is no need to invoke tertiary or inferior functions to be smart and intellectual. In the case of INFJs, INFJs and INTJs are "smart" in very much the same way, perceiving the abstract truths that aren't obvious in the physical world.

Most of this confusion exists because Jung chose the words "Thinking" and "Feeling" to describe the types. The words are apt, but invoke notions of "stupidity" for the Feeling types (never mind stupidity for the Sensing types vs the iNtuitive types). I would use "Analytical" for Thinking and "Heuristic" for Feeling, to make the distinctions more clear. The virtue of analytical thought is that it can be broken into individual pieces, have each piece proved to be true on its own, and then reassembled into an overall truth. But not everything in our world can be analyzed that way. Heuristic thought doesn't break things into pieces, but instead thinks of things as an interconnected whole. This kind of thinking is especially apt for understanding humans and human relationships, because humans and society are very interconnected, and what is true for an individual isn't necessarily true for a couple, and neither of those sets of truths map well to what is true for large groups. Hence Heuristic thinking is called "Feeling" because it is good at understanding human relationships.

Ti in an INFJ is a shadow/reflection of the Fe, where the real function being used is Fe, and Ti ends up existing sorta-kinda in its "negative space", if that makes sense. This is Jung's primary insight in his Psychological Types, that if you are an Fe type, you have Ti under the hood thinking very un-Fe thoughts, and if you are an INTP, you have Fe under the hood thinking very un-Ti thoughts.

Everyone has these unconscious shadows in their psyche. What Dario Nardi has discerned is that, for example, in the case of INFJs, as they become middle aged, they still have the INFJ patterns, but those patterns are very quiet even when fully engaged: basically, they don't have to TRY to be INFJ, they just ARE. The patterns that are active, however are the ISTP patterns, Ti and Se together. This Ti-Se side tends to be unconscious and reactionary (thinking inappropriate things, maybe blurting out inappropriate thoughts) in the teen and college years. As middle age approaches, the Ti-Se side tends to become more conscious and an INFJ who has been interested in, for example, literature and drama and understanding the human condition, gradually starts becoming the kind of person who is interested in mechanics, martial arts, dancing, performing music and so on.

In general, making this unconscious side more conscious tends to feel very fulfilling, as if questions that you didn't even know you were asking are answered. The particular functions in the tertiary and inferior position help you determine what sorts of things might help this natural progression along. For example, ISTPs gradually tend towards becoming INFJ-like, much more interested in understanding social interactions and so on.

So, yes, you DO have a tertiary Ti, but it isn't what you use to "think". You "use Ni to think" for lack of a better phrasing. (All the functions "think". That's why they're called cognitive functions. Duh!) When you do finally start developing Ti more explicitly, it's going to be more grounded in the physical world due to the Se inferior. As you approach middle age, you'll gradually learn to let out your "inner bad-ass" for the world to see.

 

[Poki]

Hi! new member here. I've never been a part of any forum so bare with me.

I assume I have a hard time using Fe and Ti together (i.e. Being rational, or being able to collect my thoughts in general, when I'm speaking with people.) It's not like I am like this every time I'm around people, but often enough to note. Though when I'm alone, I can spit things out magically. I can never really be myself around people because it's hard for me to think straight about what I really think/feel. I have some social anxiety revolved around this.

Maybe it's because when exercising Fe, Ni is noticing 1000 things a minute about the person(s) I'm interacting with. So Ti just doesn't know how to push its way into my head during these situation. Who knows. I often end up saying stuff that doesn't make sense, or can't remember facts to back up my positions. I love contemplation big topic issues, but because of this, find it hard to talk about the things I'm passionate about. I just end up speaking irrationally and becoming increasingly frustrated. Creating a cycle, if you will. My irrationality makes me frustrated, and my frustration adds to my irrationality, and it inevitably just gets worse until I give up on myself.

Do any of you INFJ's relate to this? I'm merely 18 so hopefully this will pass in time. But if there's a way to work on it, I would love suggestions. Articles related to this topic would also be appreciated too. Thanks!

That is your Ti working, because Fe dom generally doesnt worry about that stuff...they just keep going and going and going...because that irrational, etc. Doesnt really matter much interacting with people with them. They can be very inconsistant internally, very wishy washy in thier speech, and it doesnt even phase them in the least. It will all work out in communication...just....keep...going.

You have to find a wayto balance this. For me its Se and Ni i have to learn to balance. I will draw connections left and right...that while possible arent always applicable. So i have to balance between all the connections and how they apply to life all around me. Se for me says just keep going...no connections...just go and if practice makes perfect doing it 50 million times will work. Why stop and think, figure out all the possible ways theough trial and error through repetition.

Just tell Ti to shutup because honestly, not very many people care about irrational when talking. I know alot of dom Fe that say pretty stupi shit, laugh bout it, and keep going.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

In my experience, most INFJs who think/say that they "use Ti a lot" or are "Ti heavy" are mistaking personality traits for cognitive tendencies. Ni-Fe and Ni-Te tend to be associated with smart, intellectual people because ALL INxx types have a high frequency of being smart intellectual people. The INFJ types do NOT "use Ti" to be "smart" and the INFPs do not "use Te" to be "smart". The Ni, Fi, and Ti doms can all be very smart, and if Fi or Ti is combined with Ne, then that intelligence is applied to abstract ideas. There is no need to invoke tertiary or inferior functions to be smart and intellectual. In the case of INFJs, INFJs and INTJs are "smart" in very much the same way, perceiving the abstract truths that aren't obvious in the physical world.

Most of this confusion exists because Jung chose the words "Thinking" and "Feeling" to describe the types. The words are apt, but invoke notions of "stupidity" for the Feeling types (never mind stupidity for the Sensing types vs the iNtuitive types). I would use "Analytical" for Thinking and "Heuristic" for Feeling, to make the distinctions more clear. The virtue of analytical thought is that it can be broken into individual pieces, have each piece proved to be true on its own, and then reassembled into an overall truth. But not everything in our world can be analyzed that way. Heuristic thought doesn't break things into pieces, but instead thinks of things as an interconnected whole. This kind of thinking is especially apt for understanding humans and human relationships, because humans and society are very interconnected, and what is true for an individual isn't necessarily true for a couple, and neither of those sets of truths map well to what is true for large groups. Hence Heuristic thinking is called "Feeling" because it is good at understanding human relationships.

Ti in an INFJ is a shadow/reflection of the Fe, where the real function being used is Fe, and Ti ends up existing sorta-kinda in its "negative space", if that makes sense. This is Jung's primary insight in his Psychological Types, that if you are an Fe type, you have Ti under the hood thinking very un-Fe thoughts, and if you are an INTP, you have Fe under the hood thinking very un-Ti thoughts.

Everyone has these unconscious shadows in their psyche. What Dario Nardi has discerned is that, for example, in the case of INFJs, as they become middle aged, they still have the INFJ patterns, but those patterns are very quiet even when fully engaged: basically, they don't have to TRY to be INFJ, they just ARE. The patterns that are active, however are the ISTP patterns, Ti and Se together. This Ti-Se side tends to be unconscious and reactionary (thinking inappropriate things, maybe blurting out inappropriate thoughts) in the teen and college years. As middle age approaches, the Ti-Se side tends to become more conscious and an INFJ who has been interested in, for example, literature and drama and understanding the human condition, gradually starts becoming the kind of person who is interested in mechanics, martial arts, dancing, performing music and so on.

In general, making this unconscious side more conscious tends to feel very fulfilling, as if questions that you didn't even know you were asking are answered. The particular functions in the tertiary and inferior position help you determine what sorts of things might help this natural progression along. For example, ISTPs gradually tend towards becoming INFJ-like, much more interested in understanding social interactions and so on.

So, yes, you DO have a tertiary Ti, but it isn't what you use to "think". You "use Ni to think" for lack of a better phrasing. (All the functions "think". That's why they're called cognitive functions. Duh!) When you do finally start developing Ti more explicitly, it's going to be more grounded in the physical world due to the Se inferior. As you approach middle age, you'll gradually learn to let out your "inner bad-ass" for the world to see.

Not only do I fancy (value) everything you wrote... I am enormously grateful for the addition of 'heuristic' to my vocabulary via your post

 

[meb2828]

Thank you for your input!

I still just get frustrated over this part of me. I can make assumptions as to why I often have a hard time explaining things when interacting with others, but I feel a desire to know a concrete answer. I hate not feeling like I am "myself," because I want my internal world to reflect who I am on the outside. When I'm in "Fe mode" I feel like I can't structure, or recall the structure I've already found from my intuition. Not that it doesn't make sense to me, but I can't put it into words.

It's like there is idea is floating around in my head, and I know from previous contemplation that it's significant, but there is a fog covering it that makes it it harder for me to really see. I may be wrongful associating a lack of conscious Ti with something more obvious. I just don't know what other factors could be playing into this. Especially because it only happens when I'm speaking with people, looking at people, or I know people are looking at me. It's not like most social situations make me award, and that's why it happens. Only when I feel like I'm acting out of social conduct as a result of this, am I anxious.

I've thought that maybe because I was so withdrawn as a young kid and never really exercised Fe, I haven't learned how to use Fe with my tertiary introverted function as well as the average INFJ.

Likely it's a reason that can't necessary be explained with certainty through MBTI. That pisses me off though.

 

[uumlau]

Ni types often tend to have difficulty putting things into words. It is possible, of course, but it takes practice. In general, you have to use analogies and occasionally just say that some knowledge requires experience to know. For example, no one can learn how to dance from a book, or be able to tell the difference between the taste of an apple and a pear with just words.

Let your ideas "settle" in your mind, and then practice saying them. It's OK. You can talk to yourself. Everyone already thinks you're crazy, anyway.

 

[the state i am in]

to me, Ti helps us consciously examine things and hold them in focused attention. Ti provides a descriptive type of intelligence that enables us to chisel away at ideas to define something more and more concretely. it helps us develop strategies for getting better information and improves fluency in navigating experience more directly, paying closer attention to the interactive elements/forces that help us get a sense of what is happening, build awareness, see where things are going (by noticing sequential/story information better), and define situations more clearly and concisely.

for me, Ti is evident in an increasing remembrance to ask journalistic W questions, to slow down, to explore a kind of zig zaggy dialectic instead of stay with my assumptions. this is true when speaking or teaching in class, too. i have to sometimes take that deliberate pause and focus myself before proceeding. it's a lot more difficult when tired or stressed, as it seems to be something that requires a bit more effort to employ.

w that said, i do agree with umlau, too, in that the intelligences we describe are somewhat complex, hidden, ontogenetically prescribed processes that have trouble speaking up when they have to get transliterated into more dominant ones. i do think, however, that we can practice them too. but they're much deeper than the level of language, more fleetingly available in a kind of meditative way--before they head back to the shadows (at least until we transition into the phase when they start fully waking up). to me, we definitely don't USE them. they are deeply patterned ways in which we are communicated with ourselves in a long-term evolutionary mind-cleaning and mind-completing process.

 

[the state i am in]

as for something helpful, when i feel myself going through what i at least think i hear you describing, reviewing the situation by asking myself what i was saying, what has been said, where i was going, what the point of what i was saying was, etc all seem to be useful ways of building some descriptive momentum to move forward in some way. building perspective from that, realizing what the larger situation is, objectifying more and more of THAT, helps me relax into a more fluid responsiveness and tether my listening and noticing skills in a constructive way.

the second thing is that when i'm feeling kind of freeze-y or getting pressured by the moment, there's usually a lot of body/affective information to check in with, notice, accept, relax into, and let go of. emotional turbulence can be a big source of that interactive vertigo, and it can compound really fast when you're on the outside of yourself trying to act a certain way while ignoring the root of the discomfort and really re-grounding yourself.

the larger thing of being really abstract and at times being ungrounded evidence-wise can be frustrating, but with people who can see in similar ways, you can still be heard and appreciated without focusing entirely on the hazy vagueness that appears to others who cannot. meanwhile, you can get better at developing a process to examine where things come from better, what assumptions you are holding, what evidence supports those, etc, if you'd like to do so! i know for me, however, it's important to appreciate my strengths first and foremost so i don't get too endlessly caught up distracting myself from what i can contribute more immediately.