Inception

[Daedalus]

I saw this movie this Sunday and it was well worth it. Probably one of the best movies ive seen, ever!

And as a lucid dreamer, i can totally relate to it. Interestingly enough, i started a thread on lucid dreaming a few months before on typc

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/bonfire/31070-question-about-odd-dreaming-process.html

^^


Some replies to some posts above mine, might contain spoilers

The thing that bothered me about this movie was that the dreams weren't very... dreamlike, you know?

It depends, some lucid dreams can be very logical and seem as if its the real thing. especially so when one wakes up from a dream within a dream in a lucid dream....one can even feel "relief"...and even think "oh phew..that was just a dream"..when in a dream itself. it has happened to me quite a few times.

also another thing i experienced is that the entire world..or city or place the dream takes in need not be meticulously crafted...that's why i do not get the "architect" thing...for me at least when i open a door in a lucid dream...it looks like a room...with furnishings/look based on what type of room it is(in that particular dream). Its as if we create the surrounding "on demand" and not ahead of time.

also in the movie, Cobb says to Ariadne something along the lines of

"Dont worry too much about the details, set up the big picture and people will fit it up with details"

The film can appeal to Ne just as much as it does to Ni. The film is like a web of dreams and symbols and hidden meanings, with each detail leading to a new insight/meaning. I think Ns in general will really go for this film, as it's action with an enigmatic twist.
.

I think so too

This movie is Ni. Its about reality having layers. Symbols are more than just drawings, even representations of time, perception etc, all can represent other things in a layered view of reality. The ocean sort of made me think of the "collective unconscious" as Jung would put it.



I think both are in fact possible, but I lean towards the second only because the dradle noise indicated that it was slowing

I seem to think along these lines as well...the ..."washing up om the shore/raising up from a sea" motif seems to be repeated quite often in this movie.

maybe it signifies transitions between different layers of the collective unconscious...or even going deeper and deeper within ones own conscious

I've seen it twice and my favorite aspect is *spoiler alert* going to white...

Is the time folding itself over and multiplying. On the first level of the dream it's only 30 seconds, while on the fourth it's days. I like Nolan's back tracking to the first level of the dream where the van was falling, I found it funny.

If I remember right Cobb talks about Limbo being the remenants of the last person who resided within it, thus the reason why it's Cobb's 'limbo'. I think the closeness of the people in the dream does make sense from them to be collectively in the same limbo.

I read somewhere that in real dreams, "near infinite" dream time might occur within just a few seconds of real time. So i think the inceptions time-scale...even though it grows exponentially as one traverses the layers, is still slower than actual dream time.

but its a pretty nifty idea the way they explained it in the movie

 

[Daedalus]

Regarding the "Kick"

this actually happens in Lucid dreams. When one falls or is hit by something big inside a lucid dream, he wakes up.

not like the "calm awakening" one sees in the inception movie...but more with a jolt.at least that's what I've experienced.

The whole body jolts as if its been given an electric shock. and this jolt wakes one up instantly.

the other way to wake up from a lucid dream is to solve the dream
solving = arriving at an acceptable conclusion(to you)


i say it again...fascinating movie

 

[Words of Ivory]

Yeah, I've experienced those "kicks" a few times in my own dreams. I've never felt I could control my dreams, but I've always had a dull awareness of the fact that I'm doing so, on the (rare) occasions when I do.

Anyway, regarding the movie. I just got back from seeing this at the cinema. My personal thoughts? (Don't worry, it's spoiler free.)

It's good. It certainly isn't bad. The story's direction and eventual conclusion was ultimately predictable right from the beginning (an unfortunate side-effect of currently popular story-telling conventions), but the way in which the characters reached that eventual conclusion certainly wasn't.

On an emotional level, Inception felt like it was a far simpler movie than it could have been, or should have been. I simply do not buy into the main character's "closure" near the end of the movie. I might just need to mull over it more, but something felt like it was missing there - a concrete and acceptable answer, a believable reason.

There was so much more room for the supporting character to grow, but for the most part, It seemed to me that they served little purpose to the story beyond being a convenient means to push the plot in the direction that it needed to go. This is a poor use of a supporting case. They're meant to support you, not carry you.

The dream world felt like it could have been far more visually out there than it was. What they did show was well conveyed, but I always had the nagging feeling in my minds eyes that there could have been so much more to it, so much more untapped potential for the idea.

Then again, dreams are an extremely complex concept and are, by their very nature, infinite in possibilities, so maybe it's simply something that could never been satisfactorily expressed in the visual medium, because of our own personal knowledge and experiences of the world of dreams. Sandman did it better, that's all I say.

I found the best imagery was in the starting half of the movie, the most diverse and intriguing. The biggest let down was the army base. It felt like an entirely contrived and unoriginal metaphor.

The acting of the ensemble cast was solid despite their lack of influence and emotional involvement with the story, and DeCaprio has always been a great performer... in the right roles. This was one of those roles.

I hope there isn't a sequel simply because I *want* that ending to be left open to interpretation. It's one of the best movie endings I've seen in quite a while, and it is the one part of the movie that will be remembered by all who watch it. It is the one truly defining and perfectly realised moment of the movie.

Everyone will be discussing *that* one moment after they watch this film. There's no doubt about that.

 

[Totenkindly]

I agree that a sequel would ruin things... especially all the philosophical issues raised by the movie.

I don't see a lot of point in discussing the movie, though, without spoilers. There's not much that can be said of this movie's complexity unless we actually share details.

I don't particularly like DiCaprio as an actor, he's kind of wooden to me much of the time. (Titanic, I felt like all his lines fell flat.) I did see Revolutionary Road as a better fit for him (because he played a boy trying so hard to be a man)... and honestly, this is the best performance I've seen by him, although I've heard his first was excellent.

While the ending is the first thing that people will discuss (and it's definitely powerful when you see it, supported by a climactic score in that part), what one learns after examining the others issues raised is that the ending doesn't really even matter.

I had no issues with the character's self-discovered closure, for many many reasons. It's actually where he's been moving toward the whole picture... especially if he is Incepting himself or fighting off a foreign Inception levied against him. He's being asked to make a "leap of faith" throughout the movie, and in the end, he does... just not in the way that he was often encouraged.

 

[Totenkindly]

I agree that a sequel would ruin things... especially all the philosophical issues raised by the movie.

I don't see a lot of point in discussing the movie, though, without spoilers. There's not much that can be said of this movie's complexity unless we actually share details.

I don't particularly like DiCaprio as an actor, he's kind of wooden to me much of the time. (Titanic, I felt like all his lines fell flat.) I did see Revolutionary Road as a better fit for him (because he played a boy trying so hard to be a man)... and honestly, this is the best performance I've seen by him, although I've heard his first was excellent.

While the ending is the first thing that people will discuss (and it's definitely powerful when you see it, supported by a climactic score in that part), what one learns after examining the others issues raised is that the ending doesn't really even matter.

I had no issues with the character's self-discovered closure, for many many reasons. It's actually where he's been moving toward the whole picture... especially if he is Incepting himself or fighting off a foreign Inception levied against him. He's being asked to make a "leap of faith" throughout the movie, and in the end, he does... just not in the way that he was often encouraged. And, honestly, I've had enough of moments of catharsis in my own life that usually that's how it happens... I already know what I need to do, but it's too painful and scary to make the decision until I'm pushed into a corner and certain things have resolved inside of me...and then I make the decision and say exactly what I knew all along.

 

[Serge]

SPOILERS YO

Overall I liked the movie. Seemed like a very Ni movie. Talking about perception, reality, what's real and what's not etc

SPOILER

Regarding the collective unconscious: I have a few thoughts
Regarding why Cobb/Mal: I think the reason they go to their created limbo was because Cobb's psychic barriers no longer contain Mal. He's tried to stuff her down in his unconscious but she keeps trying to escape. So, the deeper they go the stronger she gets. I think people would go to their 'own' limbo but go to theirs because his barriers no longer function. Also, they share this place because they shared the dream in the first place.

Second: I want to hear people's thoughts on the ending. I think there are two interpretations

The first is that Cobb never woke up and went deeper into the dream state. He succumbed to limbo and everyone there is a projection. He has seen them before so his mind can assimilate them. Maybe this is what his limbo looks like after he disposes of Mal and clears his baggage.

The second is much more boring. Its just that he wakes up and goes home.

I've posted this a few places (I saw this last night, so I gotta get at it while it's fresh)

Personally, I think the ending was a dream but I also think that it doesn't matter. I think the words before Cobb is put under by Yusef was were important and telling: "These people don't come here to sleep....they come here to wake up, who are you to judge them?". After that, he attempts to check his totem but he does not succeed because he was interrupted. He then goes on to use his dream team to make a inception into his own mind, that he no longer needs to be guilty about the death of his wife which is primarily done by Ariadne; Fischer being the bait that allows him to think that the dream he was having was true and Adriane being the individual who leads him out of his own despair. At the end of the movie, he once again tries to check to see if he is in reality but he decides to take a "leap of faith" and just accept that the world he is living in is reality.

Few questions though: All the team members were kicked out of every level of the dream except Cobb and Saito, wouldn't this be an indicator that he was still dreaming? Also...those two drowned as well, correct?
Also, random info I happen to have

Also, quite a few of the names have alternative meanings; Cobb = Another word for Spider. Mal = Bad (luck) Eames = Charles and Ray Eames, famous architects. Ariadne = Mythology Yusef = roughly Joseph from the christian bible, who has the ability to interpret dreams. Fischer = Fisher?

Too much work! I'll just stick to my unanswered/interesting questions.

SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY




Okay, I fully admit that some of the following might've been explained away in all the dialogue I missed. Or perhaps Christopher Nolan doesn't care to explain it, to do so would just drag the story to a halt.

1) Did anyone else have any trouble hearing the dialogue? Esp. the Japanese guy, Saito.

He had quite an accent, but I heard everything he said clearly.

4) Was the first dream within a dream a test by Saito? I thought they were hired by rivals of Saito, but then I read later when I got home it was all a test set up by him. If so, who was chasing Cobb when he went to meet with the Forger, Eames?

He basically manipulated them to see their skills.

5) Am I right that any of the team can alter the dream? Cobb did this subconsciously, but I don't know if this was a rare problem, or if anyone could do it. I assume that the car and guns aren't put there by the architect, hence the line (I heard it!) about dreaming "a bigger gun". Basically, why'd they have a dream machine on the third level? They weren't expecting to go any deeper.

I believe anyone can alter the dream outside of the subject. You generally DON'T alter the dream because the subjects projections would start focusing in on you.

6) Speaking of the dream machine, why do they need it in the dreams other than to fool Fischer? It's all imaginary at that point, why not just take the red pill? Or maybe it was the blue pill...

Hmm. Don't know really. It might have just been so that the viewers would understand what is happening?

7) If they can alter the dream, why don't they do it more often? I'd think a bullet-proof Iron Man suit would come in handy. Why couldn't anyone do what the Forger did? Did that require talent, training?

If you alter the dream, the projections that the subject produces will attack you more vigorously. It would cause the mission to become more difficult and it was also make the subject (Fischer) to become suspicious. Eames (the forger) is your basic impersonator, theoretically speaking anyone can do what he did (conjure weapons and a costume) BUT he is the only person with the adequate skills to impersonate someone well. Also, he is the only person on the team who actually knows what Brown (the kidnapped guy, whatever his name was) acts like. Acting correctly leads to believability.

8) Speaking of conjuring things, was anyone else disappointed by Limbo/Cobb's id? Architecture is great and all, but wouldn't a subconscious have Godzilla stomping thru or something? He was able to dream up his kids and wife. Hardly any sign of life otherwise. I was expecting something more trippy like Eternal Sunshine.

Well. Cobb's limbo is built by him. He's an architect. What else were you suspecting? Plus the very real fear and guilt trumps godzilla stomping around, at least to me.

11) I saw OMW came to the same conclusion I did - does it really matter whether Cobb's life is but a dream or not? Does it matter to you?

Like I said above, no it doesn't. He got rid of his guilt and also took a leap of faith and just took his world to be real. That's the most telling part. Potentially, he'll never know. (I suspect the totem only works when another person tries to reproduce it in a dream, if you're in a dream of your own, then your totem will work as you would want it to)

12) Of course a lot of the above doesn't matter if it's all a dream. I didn't ask myself most of these questions until after, much like you don't question dream logic until you wake up. Was that all on purpose by Nolan?

Some thinks this is all a allegory towards film making. It's meant to be interpretive.

This brings up another question(s) about Limbo: how does one escape? Must it be willing? Why didn't Cobb just kill his wife and himself and wake up? Why bother with inception in the first place? How did Eames know when to use the defib on Fischer? Why didn't Fischer go to his own little Limbo area instead of Cobb's? Saito did.

To escape Limbo, it seems that you need to realize that you're in a dream. Unfortunately, Mal took this idea too far. Hence why is it plausible that Saito and Cobb escaped limbo. Eames heard the music, it's how they tell each other when they need to set up the 'kick'

As explained by the movie, the limbo that is shown is Cobbs because he was the last individual to go to limbo. Saito didn't really go to his own limbo, he was in cobbs, and Saito just created something I assume. Also, I don't think fischer was "dead" I also think that they simply dived into another level and Cobb entered limbo because Mal killed him.

Also, random info, my favorite character was Eames, Saito, and Arthur. Interesting. The ENTP, XNTJ, and the ISTJ.

 

[Totenkindly]

Personally, I think the ending was a dream but I also think that it doesn't matter.

I posted that about 30 seconds before you did.

It's a true postmodern ending. Not only is it unclear what happened, but it also doesn't matter whether it was real or not. It's not about what's "true," it's about what Cobb has decided for himself and values and thus it is his reality.

...He then goes on to use his dream team to make a inception into his own mind,

yes.

that he no longer needs to be guilty about the death of his wife which is primarily done by Ariadne; Fischer being the bait that allows him to think that the dream he was having was true and Adriane being the individual who leads him out of his own despair. At the end of the movie, he once again tries to check to see if he is in reality but he decides to take a "leap of faith" and just accept that the world he is living in is reality.

Yup. I think Ariadne is his personal guide through the labyrinth, a projection of himself (most likely) speaking back to him and telling him what he already knows. It's why he is so open with her.

Few questions though: All the team members were kicked out of every level of the dream except Cobb and Saito, wouldn't this be an indicator that he was still dreaming? Also...those two drowned as well, correct? Another thing is Saito was taken to Cobb's limbo and was severely aged.

The team gets bumped back to level one. They don't need to be kicked out of level 1 because they will be released once the sedation is stopped in the "real world." So they are still dreaming even while Cobb is down in Limbo.

Saito dies in the Ice Fortress. He might have also died in the other two levels, we don't know. (Dying in one level only sends you back to the last... except for this particular dream, because of the sedation; you will get dropped into Limbo if you die anywhere.) Saito is still in the van with Cobb in Yusef's dream. Ariadne travels the kick back up and escapes drowning.

Limbo is Limbo.
Limbo is empty except for whatever stuff that was left there by people within the particular dream.
Cobb was the only one who was there.
Saito goes to a different part of Limbo, and Cobb has to find him. Saito has been there decades by the time Cobb catches up to him. He remembers Cobb despite it being decades, and they share the Inception-like phrase -- "Do you want to die an old man and alone?"

Also, quite a few of the names have alternative meanings; Cobb = Another word for Spider. Mal = Bad (luck) Eames = Charles and Ray Eames, famous architects. Ariadne = Mythology Yusef = roughly Joseph from the christian bible, who has the ability to interpret dreams. Fischer = Fisher?

Fischer shares his entire name with Bobby Fischer, the chess master. The rest are all correct.

He basically manipulated them to see their skills.

Specifically, he learned that a real extraction was going to be aimed at him, but since he was prepared, he allowed it in order to test the culprits since he badly needed to find someone to Incept Fischer.

I believe anyone can alter the dream outside of the subject. You generally DON'T alter the dream because the subjects projections would start focusing in on you.

I'm not sure anyone can, although Eames does dream up a big gun in Yusef's dream. We do definitely see Ariadne in her own dream with Cobb in the French cafe changing lots of stuff, and Cobb (the subject) keeps warning her not to, and his projections kill her.

If you alter the dream, the projections that the subject produces will attack you more vigorously. It would cause the mission to become more difficult and it was also make the subject (Fischer) to become suspicious. Eames (the forger) is your basic impersonator, theoretically speaking anyone can do what he did (conjure weapons and a costume) BUT he is the only person with the adequate skills to impersonate someone well. Also, he is the only person on the team who actually knows what Brown (the kidnapped guy, whatever his name was) acts like. Acting correctly leads to believability.

Yes. Remember the bar scene in Arthur's hotel dream? Cobb is pulling a Mr. Charles gambit on Fischer, and lets him know that he is dreaming. During this, he sees a vision of his own children and falters... and immediately everyone in the bar turns and looks at him. He catches himself and manages to convince Fischer he's on the level

The key seems to be when the subject realizes he's dreaming. If he knows or thinks he's dreaming because someone is mucking with the dreamworld or not acting quite correctly, the projects start to become aggressive.

To escape Limbo, it seems that you need to realize that you're in a dream. Unfortunately, Mal took this idea too far.

She didn't really have a choice.
Cobb went into her "safe," the place where she had hidden her totem because she had wanted to accept Limbo as real (because she wanted so badly for she and Cobb to be together) and he started her totem spinning. The totem is actually inside of her, it's in her "secret place." Thus, in the core of her being, she constantly could sense the spinning totem even if she was ever in the "real world." So she always felt like she was in a false reality.

As explained by the movie, the limbo that is shown is Cobbs because he was the last individual to go to limbo. Saito didn't really go to his own limbo, he was in cobbs, and Saito just created something I assume. Also, I don't think fischer was "dead" I also think that they simply dived into another level and Cobb entered limbo because Mal killed him.

yup, that's right.

Also, random info, my favorite character was Eames, Saito, and Arthur. Interesting. The ENTP, XNTJ, and the ISTJ.

I think I liked Mal and Ariadne the best. I'm not sure what they are (ISFJ in "dark mode" for Mal, and Ariadne is Cobb's Superego projection).

 

[Mole]

Wow!

It's uncanny. And I am still in mild shock after seeing, "Inception".

For years I have been banging on about trance and trances within trance and directing you to the site Trance Institute Courses where Dennis Wier forensically lays out trance for us. But I may as well have been speaking to a brick wall.

And then all of a sudden, here it is, all of it, in accurate detail right down to the perception of reality in the deepest trance.

The only difference is Christopher Nolan uses the word 'dream' instead of 'trance' to make it more accessible to the public.

The secret that I was forced to keep to myself is now up on the silver screen for all to see.

But all is safe. For listening to the patrons as they left the theatre, I could see that they did not understand what they had just seen.

But now the cat is out of the bag and, "Inception", can always to used to illustrate Dennis Wier's Trance Theory.

And what an illustration it is. Wow!

Postscript: you can find Dennis Wier on Facebook by clicking on Trance Research | Facebook

 

[Mole]

The Medium is the Message

Ancient manuscripts were often beautifully illustrated. And the illustrations themselves are works of art. So in the same way, "Inception", illustrates Dennis Wier's Trance Theory.

Of course in a manuscript the writing and the illustrations are on the same parchment. But it would seem that, "Inception", and Trance Theory are not on the same page. And in fact they appear not to be linked at all.

But they are linked here - they are linked by hyper-link.

And hyper-links are links in the noosphere.

So both, "Inception", and Trance Theory are in the noosphere together. Just as writing and illustration are on the same parchment.

So the noosphere and a parchment have something in common - they are both mediums.

And the medium is the message.

So what message does parchment give and what message does the noosphere give?

What sense does parchment extend and what senses does the noosphere extend?

And what form of society does parchment create and what form of society does the noosphere create?

The answer is found at -
http://www.digitalparlor.org/fa07/b..._medium_is_the_message_and_other_writings.pdf

Now don't peek now. Let the questions swill around in your mind like a good wine. And only when you have tasted the full flavour, take another delicious sip.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Just finished and I've got questions ^^'

Did Frischer get killed in Dream World 3? (Ice Fortress) or was he merely dying? In which case, was he essentially revived from Dream 4?

If he is dead. Why did they not repeat the same procedure with Saito?


Otherwise I quite enjoyed it. My interpretation of the ending was that Cobb's never did find Saito in D4, never woke up, instead went to his own dream world where he saved saito and returned home. One problem with D5 or "Limbo" is that it wasn't falling apart despite D4 falling apart due to D3 explosion.

Obviously I didn't take on the interpretation that Limbo is shared consciousness. Instead I interpreted it as in, he is in his own seperate dream and everything else is a projection.

Another thing I was thinking about: It's possible to die in D2 (Drowning) - D3 (Elevator Death) - D4 (Falling building) so if they didn't wake up in time from the deeper level, what would have happened? It appears they can miss 'kicks' since they all stayed in D3 despite D1 having been activated. D2 seemed to have failed due to the gravity sensation?

 

[Lady_X]

saw it...loved it...amazing...i totally had a dream within a dream thing too kinda last night. it was a trip.

 

[Serge]

~~~SPOILERS

Just finished and I've got questions ^^'

Did Frischer get killed in Dream World 3? (Ice Fortress) or was he merely dying? In which case, was he essentially revived from Dream 4?

If he is dead. Why did they not repeat the same procedure with Saito?

I think Fischer was merely dying hence why they couldn't repeat the same process with Saito

Otherwise I quite enjoyed it. My interpretation of the ending was that Cobb's never did find Saito in D4, never woke up, instead went to his own dream world where he saved saito and returned home. One problem with D5 or "Limbo" is that it wasn't falling apart despite D4 falling apart due to D3 explosion.

Limbo isn't based on the dreams of the user like the other levels are, Limbo is simply a terrain that takes the shape of the last individual who has been there which would be cobb. Even still, Limbo doesn't have the same restraint as the other dream levels, the only thing stopping the team from conjuring various weapons and such is that Fischer's projections would start to catch on.

Obviously I didn't take on the interpretation that Limbo is shared consciousness. Instead I interpreted it as in, he is in his own seperate dream and everything else is a projection.

Another thing I was thinking about: It's possible to die in D2 (Drowning) - D3 (Elevator Death) - D4 (Falling building) so if they didn't wake up in time from the deeper level, what would have happened? It appears they can miss 'kicks' since they all stayed in D3 despite D1 having been activated. D2 seemed to have failed due to the gravity sensation?

Limbo doesn't necessarily imply shared consciousness. D1 had two kicks, one being the initial leap off the bridge (I assume) and the second being the crew actually hitting the water. That's the big question, I tend to think that you need to be kicked out of all the levels for you to wake up. With that being said, the rules of Limbo aren't particularly well stated (The characters were merely theorizing in the movie. Cobb did stay in Limbo for fifty years and he did manage to retain sanity)

Also, D2 succeeded iirc, Arthur essentially created a pressure wave which pushed the elevator in a direction that made the crew feel like they were 'falling'

 

[Snow Turtle]

~~~SPOILERS
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[Limbo isn't based on the dreams of the user like the other levels are, Limbo is simply a terrain that takes the shape of the last individual who has been there which would be cobb. Even still, Limbo doesn't have the same restraint as the other dream levels, the only thing stopping the team from conjuring various weapons and such is that Fischer's projections would start to catch on.

Limbo doesn't necessarily imply shared consciousness. D1 had two kicks, one being the initial leap off the bridge (I assume) and the second being the crew actually hitting the water. That's the big question, I tend to think that you need to be kicked out of all the levels for you to wake up. With that being said, the rules of Limbo aren't particularly well stated (The characters were merely theorizing in the movie. Cobb did stay in Limbo for fifty years and he did manage to retain sanity)]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Yeah I'll have to watch for the explanation of Limbo once again since I was a little sketchy on that part. My interpretion was that it was merely the individual who entered their own limbo, thus it'll always be the last person entering only. There are no others.

The interpretation that is being given by others on different websites seem to suggest that Limbo is a dream location that people can enter in together hence the questioning of whether it's meant to be shared consciousness down there.

Did Cobb actually go to Limbo with Mal?
They kinda just claimed... Oh, we explored the deeper dream realm until we found ourselves in Limbo. Yet, it's not actually guaranteed that he's ever been to there since he's the only one that knows. Suppose, a question here is whether it's possible to implant idea in people's memories via limbo world or whether he entered his wife's dream within her dream. They sound as if they were sane the entire time, so it appeared more to be a case of them entering dreams. Just that his wife prefered the dream world to reality.


[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[Also, D2 succeeded iirc, Arthur essentially created a pressure wave which pushed the elevator in a direction that made the crew feel like they were 'falling']]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]


Oh, I was curious whether Arthur failed to do so first time round due to the zero gravity. But, that seems like abit of a blunder given they were expected to do so. The only reference I heard was something along the lines of "The music is playing too early" meaning the timing had messed him up.

Some people have suggested that they require a kick from the shallower level as well as the current level to return back. At least it'd explain why they had to jump off in stage 4 when the world was collapsing. (I'm assuming it's because D3 is experiencing explosions.) though it's kinda weird that D3 wasn't subjected to any of the effects from D2. Someone on this thread already picked that up though.

It's been so interesting reading other people's interpretations of the movie. Some even suggesting the horrible 'It was all a dream' scenario with Cobbs when he wakes up in the plane or that Cobbs is still actually in some form of dream world unwilling to wake up while everyone is suggesting he should do so (Grandfather etc)

I'm curious, I wonder whether the person who made the movie intentionally made it so that there could be many different interpretations or whether he had a set one in mind, but introduced all these other variables to hide the real one.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm not going to hide text, it should be clear that SPOILERS ABOUND in this thread.
Skip my post if you need to.

I think Fischer was merely dying hence why they couldn't repeat the same process with Saito

I've even seen the argument being made that Cobb's Limbo was really just another dream level and Saito's Limbo was actual Limbo. Still, even though Cobb and Ariadne use a machine to get there, Fischer is shot on D4 by Mal and ends up in Cobb's Limbo regardless, just like the rules for Limbo would suggest.

... dunno.

But I think Fischer was dead. You don't get bumped to Limbo until you die in a dream level; normally it kicks you up a level, but the level of sedation required for a triple level dream means the mind can't get back out.

Limbo isn't based on the dreams of the user like the other levels are, Limbo is simply a terrain that takes the shape of the last individual who has been there which would be cobb.

Close. Limbo is "raw space" that is comprised of whatever Limbo experiences anyone in the currently dreaming group has been through. In this group, only Cobb had ever been in Limbo, so the only substance in Limbo was what Cobb had done the last time he was there. Saito goes to Limbo and then begins to construct his own reality around himself.

Anyone understand why Cobb's Limbo is eroding, though?

Even still, Limbo doesn't have the same restraint as the other dream levels, the only thing stopping the team from conjuring various weapons and such is that Fischer's projections would start to catch on.

Yes. When Eames makes the Big Gun, they're already being attacked by projections; no point in holding back.

Limbo doesn't necessarily imply shared consciousness. D1 had two kicks, one being the initial leap off the bridge (I assume)

yes. The inner ear can't really tell the difference between beginning the fall and ending it -- it's the shift in direction and (de)acceleration that matters, that tells us we are falling. Our momentum is shifting very quickly.

So the initial plunge is a kick, and...

and the second being the crew actually hitting the water.

Yes, hitting the water was the "backup" kick.

That's the big question, I tend to think that you need to be kicked out of all the levels for you to wake up. With that being said, the rules of Limbo aren't particularly well stated (The characters were merely theorizing in the movie. Cobb did stay in Limbo for fifty years and he did manage to retain sanity)

Did he?

He was there with Mal, and they had each other. That helped. They had also gone there on purpose, another help.

Saito also managed to stay sane, apparently... but he remembered Cobb. He wasn't completely believing in Limbo, he was just confused enough and needed Cobb's affirmation it was Limbo before he could bring himself to die and get out.

The trouble comes because people think Limbo is reality. Thus, they're trapped there for a long long time, since their physical body is aging far more slowly back IRL... you could spend thousands of years down there... and it's really one big solipsist loop, so the mind just tends to feed on itself and eventually can't distinguish reality from Limbo... and even if they get back, they can't be sure what is true. Frankly, Mal might have been screwed anyway even without Cobb's "push." During their time there, Cobb always seemed to retain awareness of Limbo being "false" but Mal had eventually bought into its reality.

Also, D2 succeeded iirc, Arthur essentially created a pressure wave which pushed the elevator in a direction that made the crew feel like they were 'falling'

Yup. They were in no-grav space, so any quick acceleration in any direction would feel like falling IRL. Gravity (in terms of our human experience) is just a special case of the inner ear being tilted from level and a quick acceleration... but it only ever happens in one direction. The explosions in the no-grav zone can recreate that experience.

Cobbs is still actually in some form of dream world unwilling to wake up while everyone is suggesting he should do so (Grandfather etc)

Actually, this is quickly becoming one of the standard readings. Taking it at face value appears to be considered pretty blase, after 2 weeks into release, lol!

Oh, I was curious whether Arthur failed to do so first time round due to the zero gravity. But, that seems like abit of a blunder given they were expected to do so. The only reference I heard was something along the lines of "The music is playing too early" meaning the timing had messed him up.

Yusef doesn't seem to have a lot of dream experience. (For example, he forgets to use the bathroom beforehand, meaning D2 is stuck in a torrential downpour for most of it... Hmmm, side note -- does the lessening of the rain in that level suggest that he peed his pants while asleep? Just curious! ) He didn't time things right, got stuck early on the bridge, and had to go off or risk being killed / having others killed and jeopardizing the whole mission.

The bombs were supposed to drop them into the hotel room under theirs. The music came early, the hotel went into freefall before Arthur could set off the charges... but he knew the backup plan. It was better that way too, they needed the extra time further down.

More dream layers means more muffling of effects from higher up. What happens to someone who is dreaming plays out in their dreams, but if they dream in their dreams, it's the middle level that will impact them on the lowest level, whereas the highest level has to go through a dream through a dream to reach their consciousness. So the sensations will be muffled.

 

[Snow Turtle]

I'm not going to hide text, it should be clear that SPOILERS ABOUND in this thread.
Skip my post if you need to.













I've even seen the argument being made that Cobb's Limbo was really just another dream level and Saito's Limbo was actual Limbo. Still, even though Cobb and Ariadne use a machine to get there, Fischer is shot on D4 by Mal and ends up in Cobb's Limbo regardless, just like the rules for Limbo would suggest.

... dunno.

But I think Fischer was dead. You don't get bumped to Limbo until you die in a dream level; normally it kicks you up a level, but the level of sedation required for a triple level dream means the mind can't get back out.

I interpreted that he had died as well so was surprised when he managed to get back out all perfectly fine and healthy. The only way I could reconcile this was the belief that... You can't technically die in dream worlds. You'd either just wake up or go to another dream location. "Limbo" seems to be the only location where they're all a little fuzzy on memory upon arrival?

Did they actually hook up Fischer to the dream device? Otherwise it wouldn't be so farfetched to suggest that Cobb is the dreamer while Fischer is like Ariadne etc, people that have followed him into his dream. The only thing I wasn't entirely clear on was why they didn't seem to hook up Saito in that case... Was Cobb planning on finding Saito in the collapsing world? (This would suggest that this world is Limbo I guess) but it just seems a little silly to me why they'd enter Limbo rather than just another dream world. What's so special about the number 3?

The only reason they mentioned 3 was because it was unstable from the previous 2 dream levels. But theoretically they should be able to go down as many dream levels providing the world didn't collapse on them.

Close. Limbo is "raw space" that is comprised of whatever Limbo experiences anyone in the currently dreaming group has been through. In this group, only Cobb had ever been in Limbo, so the only substance in Limbo was what Cobb had done the last time he was there. Saito goes to Limbo and then begins to construct his own reality around himself.

Anyone understand why Cobb's Limbo is eroding, though?

This would have us believe that he's the only individual that's ever ventured down Limbo when countless of people across the world could have done so though. It's why I have difficulty believing in this shared reality, but am more likely to believe in personal dream reality. How did Cobb enter Saito's Limbo anyhow? Assuming Cobb's falling world is Limbo. Would death send them back to reality? Or send them into a deeper Limbo (Saito's world), or are Cobb's falling castle (xD) and Saito's place connected.

I assumed his place is falling apart because of how he was interpreting his dream world. It started deconstructing alot more when the explosions started occuring in the IceTower. Now, the question is whether Limbo is meant to be affected by other dream levels.

Did he?

He was there with Mal, and they had each other. That helped. They had also gone there on purpose, another help.

Saito also managed to stay sane, apparently... but he remembered Cobb. He wasn't completely believing in Limbo, he was just confused enough and needed Cobb's affirmation it was Limbo before he could bring himself to die and get out.

The trouble comes because people think Limbo is reality. Thus, they're trapped there for a long long time, since their physical body is aging far more slowly back IRL... you could spend thousands of years down there... and it's really one big solipsist loop, so the mind just tends to feed on itself and eventually can't distinguish reality from Limbo... and even if they get back, they can't be sure what is true. Frankly, Mal might have been screwed anyway even without Cobb's "push." During their time there, Cobb always seemed to retain awareness of Limbo being "false" but Mal had eventually bought into its reality.

Pretty nice description
There are people out there who believe that Mal was right about them still being in another dream state.

But I think I prefer the idea that Cobb just basically trapped in a Coma from Dream State 4 (Assuming Reality is 0) and that everything after his death with Mal is just his own dreams (Limbo) being played out to him. In that he saves Saito and returns back to his children.

Even though I'd love to believe he escaped... I'll need to watch the film again.
Hehehe.

 

[The Outsider]

This is a very good movie.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with Ni. Get over yourselves already.

 

[Totenkindly]

I interpreted that he had died as well so was surprised when he managed to get back out all perfectly fine and healthy. The only way I could reconcile this was the belief that... You can't technically die in dream worlds. You'd either just wake up or go to another dream location. "Limbo" seems to be the only location where they're all a little fuzzy on memory upon arrival?

Well, remember, they are all coached on the Architect-constructed levels. They all knew what each dream would look like, they had a plan, etc.

Limbo is a crapshoot -- either nothingness, NOTHING to grasp with your mind, or it's stuff that someone else has built or that you have built from your own memories. Unless you have been there before, you have no foundation to start with to understand what you are seeing.

To add to the above bit about Limbo getting mixed up with reality: Remember that Cobb said never to incorporate your memories into a dream, or you'll get confused. But Limbo as Cobb had made it with Mal was full of memories -- the houses they'd lived in, things they experienced together, etc. That confused the issue for Mal.

When you die in a dream, you typically get bumped out of THAT dream. Which will send you "one level up" -- you wake up, and either you are now in reality, or you're back in the dream from which you had been dreaming the now-defunct dream.

Did they actually hook up Fischer to the dream device? Otherwise it wouldn't be so farfetched to suggest that Cobb is the dreamer while Fischer is like Ariadne etc, people that have followed him into his dream.

Fischer was never hooked up, I thought; I thought only he and Ariadne were hooked up.

The thing is that if Cobb is an unreliable narrator... he might be inadvertently telling us mistruths about how the dream logic works. If EVERYTHING in the movie is yet one big dream, the inconsistencies don't actually matter.

It's a sweet deal for Nolan; even if he makes a mistake or decides not to reconcile something, the rules of the story itself can "cover" for him!

The only thing I wasn't entirely clear on was why they didn't seem to hook up Saito in that case... Was Cobb planning on finding Saito in the collapsing world? (This would suggest that this world is Limbo I guess) but it just seems a little silly to me why they'd enter Limbo rather than just another dream world. What's so special about the number 3?

The only reason they mentioned 3 was because it was unstable from the previous 2 dream levels. But theoretically they should be able to go down as many dream levels providing the world didn't collapse on them.

Theoretically. But remember what the sedation does -- it knocks you out IRL. To keep the body out for good (to keep all three dreams stable, so that external stimulations can't disturb and wake you, an extremely high dose of sedative has to be taken.

At some point, the person's vitals are taken so low by a sedative that they just die.

I'm not sure they realistically go further than three levels without being drugged to death.

This would have us believe that he's the only individual that's ever ventured down Limbo when countless of people across the world could have done so though.

No, as stated earlier, Limbo is raw space filled with stuff ONLY from the people who are sharing the dream state.

There were only seven people (Eames, Yusef, Cobb, Ariadne, Fischer, Saito, and Arthur) in this shared dream. Cobb was the only one who had been in Limbo before.

Think of Limbo not as a tangible place that is external to everyone's head, it's a shared space formed by the meeting of the currently connected minds. If you've been there before, you have a contribution to make; if not, all you have is raw space to offer.

It's why I have difficulty believing in this shared reality, but am more likely to believe in personal dream reality. How did Cobb enter Saito's Limbo anyhow? Assuming Cobb's falling world is Limbo. Would death send them back to reality? Or send them into a deeper Limbo (Saito's world), or are Cobb's falling castle (xD) and Saito's place connected.

It's all the same Limbo. Saito just built his stuff in a different corner of it.

I assumed his place is falling apart because of how he was interpreting his dream world. It started deconstructing alot more when the explosions started occuring in the IceTower. Now, the question is whether Limbo is meant to be affected by other dream levels.

I don't know.

I was also wondering if it was eroding because Cobb had denied the reality of it... and was about to reject it completely as part of freeing himself from Mal. IOW, he was finally "letting go" of that reality he had joint-constructed with her. And, also, if it had been there for thousands of years during the time he and Mal had come back vs the Inception against Fischer, maybe it was just collapsing naturally.

Definitely the kicks and upper-level dream were getting through to Cobb's area of Limbo though (if it was Limbo); the sky is torn by lightning (from Fischer getting jump-started), the ground is shaking (from the collapse of the Ice Fortress), it's acting less like a detached Limbo and more like yet another dream level.

Even though I'd love to believe he escaped... I'll need to watch the film again. Hehehe.

I'm not sure he escaped anything, I think rather he embraced something of his own choosing... and in the end, since reality is not to be discovered (as something existing outside oneself) but to be chosen (within oneself), it doesn't matter whether it was true or not.

EDIT:
Another link:
Inception Ending Explained (and Discussion) - Screen Rant

One interesting comment:

At the end, Cobb’s kids seem to be the same age and are seemingly wearing the same clothes as they were in his memory of them – is it “proof” he’s still dreaming? As carefully documented by our own Vic Holtreman, at the end of the film Cobb’s kids are wearing similar outfits to the ones he remembers, but their shoes are different.

rofl, really? Wow. Someone has sharper eyes than me.

EDIT EDIT:
Also, in regards to the soundtrack, which a YouTube clip shows that the brooding part of the musical theme is actually the Piaf song slowed down (it really is, lol!), Hans Zimmer 'fesses up.
Inception soundtrack created entirely from Edith Piaf song | Music | guardian.co.uk
Hans Zimmer Extracts the Secrets of the ‘Inception’ Score - ArtsBeat Blog - NYTimes.com

(which is actualy really a cool idea. Since the music coming from higher levels should be slower in lower levels, it might actually sound like this)

Is The FogHorn In ‘Inception’ A Clue To The Film’s Meaning? | Pink is the New Blog | Everybody's Business Is My Business

And since the music bookends the movie as well as permeates it... the entire movie is the "wakeup music." Which suggests the entire movie was a dream, and at the very end of the credits, the song translates back into its normal tempo and the film stops rolling... meaning the audience has now been kicked back into real life and can walk out the door.

EDIT EDIT EDIT:
Another graphic of the movie dream levels, this one a 3D representation.
The Inception Timeline: A Pretty Adventure in Hand-Holding | Film School Rejects

EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT:
More links.
Dissecting 'Inception': Six Interpretations and Five Plot Holes - Cinematical
I agree with the assessment on plot holes. If the whole movie is a dream, then Nolan is home-free. If not, then the last one in particular is a sticking point.

I also like the discussion about "What is the audience's totem so that we know we are in a dream or not?" The answer: There isn't one... there is no establishing shot or item that really tells us... Even the kids are slightly different.

The Volokh Conspiracy
The proposal that Cobb is not even an Inception agent but merely someone dreaming and working through a cathartic moment.

Sammy Jankis Shares His Thoughts on Inception | /Film
A past memento shares his thoughts.

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

SPOILER

In relation to whether or not the entirety of the movie was a dream:

They made it a very big point that in order to wake up from the deepest layer immediately, from layers of sleep, you would have to be kicked from every layer simultaneously.

The biggest problem I had with believing anything really happened was the part when Cobb and his wife decide to kill themselves in Limbo...

That decision would have only been enough to either peel one layer or would send them into limbo...again. (Ariadne had to be kicked from Limbo afterall)

But even further was the issue of Cobb and his wife's initial limbo experience. For one they would have to have been properly sedated to reach that point... If that's the case, what does "killing" yourself in limbo really do? (One of the points was that killing yourself/dying when deeply sedated would send you into limbo so its paradoxical... Either the place they were in wasn't really limbo and killing themselves sent them to the real one...or it wasn't really limbo and just a fourth level and they receded to the 3rd)

I think there is a distinct option that this movie could have taken:

Cobb and his wife get to a 4th(?) level of dreaming and kill themselves, which would take them one layer out which would be enough time for the events of the movie to take place.

The funny thing about that would be that Mal would have been right; they would have still been dreaming.

Oh yeah, I really liked the movie by the way

 

[Totenkindly]

Cobb and Mal used a machine to get to Limbo. You can see it behind Cobb when they wake up from their first Limbo excursion. I don't think they had an extra dream levels to go through, they likely got there via sedation of some sort.

I think what happens is that if you are still sedated when you kill yourself in Limbo, it wouldn't really do anything, would it? You'd still be out. I think you only can wake up once the sedative is stopped. So if you die in Limbo after the sedative is done, you wake up immediately; otherwise, I would intuit that you're in a blank sleep until the sedative runs out, whereupon you awake... but you wouldn't know that time had elapsed in the "real world" since you wouldn't know what time in the real world syncs up with your death in Limbo... it would be perceived just like killing yourself and waking up in reality.

In the movie, Cobb and Saito woke up 20 minutes before end of flight, when the sedative apparently ran its course.

But you would think if ALL of it was a dream (and the whole Inception concept was authentic), that getting out of Limbo by dying would bump them the WHOLE way out to the very top, rather than leaving them in a dream world of any sort.

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

Hmm, I never saw that machine, good observation Jennifer. But how do you explain the 50 years they spend in limbo? They would have had to have gone into a dream within a dream. In fact Cobb even says that this is what they did (saying the two of them were really interested in the idea of dreams within dreams but didn't realize the change in time would be so vast.)

I'm really curious to understand why you think dying in limbo would be a complete insta bump?

If this were the case, would the cast have freaked out when they found out they would go to limbo if they died in any of the dream worlds? They would have known to kill themselves when/if they reached that point...(Of course, this is assuming they understand what you are thinking: that dying in limbo would be enough to break the dream)

But hmmm, the idea of dying in limbo is still baffling... especially under sedation. I like your idea of the blank sleep but that seems to negate the fact that they fell asleep to get there in the first place... It would be like a wormhole that jumps from x levels of dreams to reality, it's hard to imagine that it would be that easy.

One thing that really seemed to make me question the real world were the totems.. the conscious/unconscious control over them in dreams seemed to be what made them certain the world was real but it could have actually been a point of confusion for dreamers and such. The "reality" we see throughout the movie could have just been a layer that cobb's unconscious thought was reality and that would seem to be enough to make that top stop spinning i would think..