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Gaiman's "Sandman" series

Totenkindly

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I thought there was already a thread on this, since they have been casting.

Here is a comprehensive article including casting decisions from both the first batch (a few months ago) and the second, last week.
Everything We Know About Netflix’s The Sandman Series << Rotten Tomatoes – Movie and TV News

Gaiman has said he is involved more than "American Gods," less than "Good Omens."

To include the most obvious stuff:
Sandman_Cast-Grid_700x380.jpg


Sandman_NewCastAnnouncement_700x700.jpg


There has also been an audiobook reading out there with different cast.

I'm actually happy it's getting done as prestige TV. It deserves a decent treatment. trying to condense too much into a two hour movie would likely not just be disastrous but also not do the concept justice. And now they've had a few trial runs (American Gods, Good Omens, plus tons of other adaptations) to get it all right.
 

Totenkindly

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Apparently there was yet another twitter feed where some idiots got in Gaiman's face about not caring about his work... which is ridiculous. If you know the history of Sandman at all, Gaiman has been fighting the good fight for literal years (decades?) to get this into an AV format that is true to the core of the work.

Neil Gaiman Fires Back at Sandman Netflix Casting Critics

Apparently someone got their undies in a wad over a black casting of Death (she changes shape all the time anyway, depending on where she is, to reflect the dying). Gaiman didn't really take it lying down either.

"I give all the f*cks about the work. I spent 30 years successfully battling bad movies of Sandman," Gaiman wrote. "I give zero fucks about people who don't understand/haven't read Sandman whining about a non-binary Desire or that Death isn't white enough. Watch the show, make up your minds."

If someone is stupid enough to not know that Desire was always non-binary / straddling the gender line, they have no claim to even watching the show. the whole point of desire is that it's not one gender or the other. They appear as both genders (or simply as the in-between gender) throughout the series. Desire impregnates someone as a male (by admission) at one point in the series but regularly could be read as female as well. Gaiman's work is pretty broad in these respects, he had one of the most memorable trans characters that really impacted me, in the "A Game of You" arc, as well as a number of gay and lesbian characters.

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The guy playing Abel, scarily enough, looks just like the comic book version. The Corinthian casting as well, and the guy played Pierce in "Logan" so I think he's up to the task.
 

yeghor

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Now that makes sense why American Gods makes me depressed when watching.

This guy is a nihilist and probably an INTP. In contrast Tim Burton (INFP), Burton's domains are as eerie as Gaiman's yet the former is more about hope and love shown thru a distorted lens and world.

Gaiman's work is also distorted and eerie but more about despair and decay and corruption. He is a warlock or a dark shaman who corrupts the society and souls.

Haven't read the comic, curious about the TV show.

EDIT: Alan Moore's style looks similar to Gaiman's.

EDIT 2: Alan Moore on Rorrchach: “I wanted to kind of make this like, 'Yeah, this is what Batman would be in the real world'. But I had forgotten that actually to a lot of comic fans, that smelling, not having a girlfriend—these are actually kind of heroic! So actually, sort of, Rorschach became the most popular character in Watchmen. I meant him to be a bad example. But I have people come up to me in the street saying, "I am Rorschach! That is my story!' And I'll be thinking: 'Yeah, great, can you just keep away from me, never come anywhere near me again as long as I live'?”

So if Batman is ISTJ and Moore is irked by ISTJs, that would make him INFP?

Maybe Gaiman is also an INFP after all and there are shades to INFPs as there are shades to Fi.

EDIT 3: Also interesting is Niamm Wallsh looks a bit like Naomi Watts both in name and in face?
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Now that makes sense why American Gods makes me depressed when watching.

This guy is a nihilist and probably an INTP. In contrast Tim Burton (INFP), Burton's domains are as eerie as Gaiman's yet the former is more about hope and love shown thru a distorted lens and world.

Gaiman's work is also distorted and eerie but more about despair and decay and corruption. He is a warlock or a dark shaman who corrupts the society and souls.

Corrupting souls is so much fun tho.
 

Totenkindly

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Now that makes sense why American Gods makes me depressed when watching.

This guy is a nihilist and probably an INTP. In contrast Tim Burton (INFP), Burton's domains are as eerie as Gaiman's yet the former is more about hope and love shown thru a distorted lens and world.

Gaiman's work is also distorted and eerie but more about despair and decay and corruption. He is a warlock or a dark shaman who corrupts the society and souls.

Haven't read the comic, curious about the TV show.

EDIT: Alan Moore's style looks similar to Gaiman's.

EDIT 2: Alan Moore on Rorrchach: “I wanted to kind of make this like, 'Yeah, this is what Batman would be in the real world'. But I had forgotten that actually to a lot of comic fans, that smelling, not having a girlfriend—these are actually kind of heroic! So actually, sort of, Rorschach became the most popular character in Watchmen. I meant him to be a bad example. But I have people come up to me in the street saying, "I am Rorschach! That is my story!' And I'll be thinking: 'Yeah, great, can you just keep away from me, never come anywhere near me again as long as I live'?”

So if Batman is ISTJ and Moore is irked by ISTJs, that would make him INFP?

Maybe Gaiman is also an INFP after all and there are shades to INFPs as there are shades to Fi.

EDIT 3: Also interesting is Niamm Wallsh looks a bit like Naomi Watts both in name and in face?

This is not a typing thread, this is the Arts & Entertainment thread. So this is a discussion of the show and things related to the show, so we can focus on the show and story itself, NOT typology. THis is why the two areas exist. Otherwise the story/show discussion would continually be derailed by people arguing about what type the main character or the author is.

You can place typing threads for characters and artists/writers, etc., over in the Popular Culture and Typing area. It should be kept out of Arts & Entertainment threads except obliquely.

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To try to address your main points: Maybe you should actually read the entire Sandman series before you go off about how he's "about despair and decay and corruption." Death is actually an uplifting character in this series, which is why she has been a fan fave. And the reason it's a big draw is because of the catharsis and uplifting quality of the entire 75 issue work. No, it's not all about unicorn farts and light and breezy, it deals with some heavy shit, and maybe that doesn't sit well with you -- where I would simply say, "to each their own." At the same time, it embraces the necessity of change in life, lest we become calcified in un-life. So much trauma revolves around refusal to deal with change and admit that change (with is a form of "mini-death" -- you are leaving behind what exists for something new, something still being born) is required if you want to actually live. The theme of Sandman is, quite literally, "change" -- and change as a form of growth because you have to leave your past behind to move into the future. [To summarize: We "die" regularly in order to continue to live, and if we refuse to change/die, we are dead already.] I personally found so many instances of catharsis over the course of this story. It's the reason the comic series ended in the 90's and yet people have been trying to get an adaptation to the screen ever since.

I've seen the first season of American Gods and have not read the book. AG is darker than than Sandman, based on the first season of the show. Also, it's not clear where any of its going from just that season, other than it being an all-out war between the ancient gods who are becoming obsolete and the newly developing gods of younger countries/cultures, which I found kind of fascinating to think about -- but yeah, it's pretty dark and bloody. It's about a war between beings who are far larger than humans, who need humans to amass power, and who otherwise might not care about humans. I would not misunderstand the show to be totally reflective of the book, so I cannot draw the same comparisons you have from watching some of the TV show.

Tim Burton loses some of his power because he's always going for the whimsical. This is amusing at times, even if it allows him to pull off what would be a sick horror story in lesser hands (like Edward Scissorhands), but sometimes it can rob his work of gravitas. I feel like I enjoyed him in his early years because there were very few unique voices in the film industry, but that has changed a lot over the last 25 years. Burton is also a film director (different medium) than Gaiman, so he directs his own visual manifestation of story; Gaiman can be more abstracted and with his comics work would be reliant on artist pairings. He's worked with a wide range of artists through Sandman, some are darker visualists, some are lighter, some are quite beautiful (Michael Zulli is one in particular that comes to mind).

I'm not sure why you are talking about Watchmen in this thread without better sketching out what point you are trying to make. There is a Watchmen thread somewhere if you want to discuss Alan Moore and Watchmen as its own entity.

Corrupting souls is so much fun tho.

Well, there is that.

What better way to pass the time?
 

Totenkindly

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Sandman iFilm.png


I like this pic, the hair is getting there. :) The more wild the hair, the better. Also interesting is the character of Lucienne -- we knew this version would be a black woman, but the image above still seems to project the character of Lucien from the book despite the external differences.

I too wonder why Gaiman is calling "24 Hours" the "feel good" episode of the season, as I didn't think he was being sarcastic. (If you have read the Preludes & Nocturnes, you will understand why... dear god. It might have been the first issue that emotionally scarred me a bit.)
 

Totenkindly

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Great overview article.... and it clarifies the "Diner" episode is actually #5, not #6, so that one will be dark as hell. In light of that, I bet Episode #6 is "The Sound of Her Wings," starring Death.

The first season will cover Preludes & Nocturnes, plus the Doll's House and part of Dream Country. (I wonder if they will do the cat story. I assume they'll do them in order, from that four-story book, so Calliope + Cats.) Basically Dream Country is four isolated stories that at times reflect on the main arc of Dream (as an outsider who involves himself in the lives of the protagonists) but also extends to his family, including Death.

Since Doll's House is in Season 1, that means Gilbert will show up ... along with the Cereal Convention. I think the idea might have been done more recently and has since become a common joke of sorts, but this was written in the early 90's and was the first time I ran across it. It was pretty crazy at the time.

"A Midsummer Night's Dream" will show up in Season 2, and "Facade" will probably be in Season 2 as well -- the latter's a really painful / beautiful story again highlighting Death and involving a minor silver age DC hero. That also means Season 2 will revolve around "Seasons of Mists," which was the name of my first blog here. I don't want to spoil it, it just deals with Morpheus' descent into Hell and what he finds there. The issue is totally not what anyone expected and resonated strongly with me at that time in my life when I read it.

The TV format is really great for this kind of story. Like in X-Files which had some "monster of the week" episodes and then other "ongoing arc" episodes, Sandman was written the same way with a few issues just being stand-alone stories and others being part of the regular sub-arcs.
 
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Totenkindly

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Pics from EW.com

They're all pretty decent, but as far as spitting image goes, The Corinthian, Gilbert, and Desire are just really great.

Sandman - Burgess.jpg


Sandman - Constantine.jpg


Sandman - Corinthian.jpg


Sandman - Death.jpg


Sandman - Desire.jpg


Sandman - Gilbert.jpg


Sandman - John Dee.jpg
 

JocktheMotie

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I haven't read this yet. I'll have to look into what run the show covers and grab it from the library, but from everything I've seen this looks like my next favorite binge.
 

Totenkindly

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Three more days. It's all dropping at one time (Season 1).

Read Preludes & Nocturnes and The Doll's House 6-8 weeks back. Started reading "Seasons of Mist" yesterday again after years not, and a flood of memories returned. There were two clip drops in the last week, one in Hell and one with Death. I saw Mazikeen show up in the one clip in Hell, although I could understand what she was saying; I was hoping they'd make her only generally intelligible. (She's one of my favorite very minor characters that appears periodically throughout the series.)

Episode list is here. I added a 1-2 sentence note to them without spoiling anything of note, just to tie them to the appropriate comic. But it's basically a map of the season.



So it really looks like they are not going past the end of The Doll's House.

What follows next is a book of four stand-alone stories (all of which are actually really great, as opposed to some of the later one-shot story compilations -- this is like King's "Different Seasons" caliber story telling), then right into Seasons of Mists which I expect would be the topic of Season 2. I wonder if they will just start weaving in the four stories amid the Seasons of Mist arc, I think they could actually pull that off in 10 episodes.
 
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The Cat

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Touche Netflix...way to pull your ass out of my streaming cancellation...I trust I dont have to remind you that a lot is riding on this...HBO max has been eyeing your spot.
 

Totenkindly

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Okay. Rotten Tomato scores were shifting around the day of release. Currently at 85% (61 critics) and 86% (661 audience). That's pretty consistent for fan and non-fan alike.

I have watched the first six episodes which includes (presumably) what are looking to be the best two episodes of the season. Here is my opinion:

Trying to be both a pretty knowledgeable book reader while still trying to view it as a TV show, I would give it a Thumbs Up buy probably only a 3.5-3.75 out of 5 score. There are moments I have enjoyed and overall I think it's decent, but I am coming away feeling mildly disappointed overall for some reason. I'll explain more thoughts in a spoiler when I have time.

It isn't really the actors, it's more the pacing, the writing, some changes made for the screen (even when I understand them), and a loss of some of the edginess of what made the comic good. It's interesting to see that Gaiman was involved and was very supportive of the release, he's totally behind this release, but it's like it just feels "less than" in a lot of ways even with glimpses of its paperback genius.

 
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Totenkindly

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Should note that especially in the first arc or two (i.e., Season 1) there had to be some changes. Gaiman had been forced to incorporate some elements of what was happening in the DC universe at the time, and they tend to be the weakest elements of the story + not directly useful to Gaiman's intentions. So there have been a whole excising of certain DC characters from the storyline and/or replacement with other twists to the subplot. However, there are a few things that do need to be maintained (for example, Daniel's origin is crucial, even if the specifics can be tweaked), so they had to shift rather than excise those elements.

Once you get to Seasons of Mists, Gaiman just really ballasts a lot of the DC holdover stuff. Can't recall if anything survived, he's pretty much off to his own mythology then.

Also, my favorite thing I've seen so far is the Hecataea and how they will manifest as certain collections of female characters throughout Sandman, including multiple times in Season 1. They are being handled pretty well.
 

Totenkindly

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Well, I had watched through episode 8, the promptly forgot to finish the season and it's now almost two weeks after release. Not feeling particularly motivated but will probably get back to it just to wrap it up. I guess it might be more interesting for folks who haven't read the books, or if you are really die-hard and resonate to any mention of the series. the mythos / world-building is great.

For me sadly I've ended up feeling like this, it's like there is a spark missing or something:

 

The Cat

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Well, I had watched through episode 8, the promptly forgot to finish the season and it's now almost two weeks after release. Not feeling particularly motivated but will probably get back to it just to wrap it up. I guess it might be more interesting for folks who haven't read the books, or if you are really die-hard and resonate to any mention of the series. the mythos / world-building is great.

For me sadly I've ended up feeling like this, it's like there is a spark missing or something:

Do you think the show will at least bring more attention to the books at least?
 
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