[MBTI General] F mystery debunked

[SolitaryWalker]

Do you think that is true of every single one of them? I'm just curious.

No.

 

[Eileen]

This is why I dont want Fs posting here. They, like Jennifer arent interested in ideas and arguments that back them up, only in personal motivations of people who propound them.

I'm interested in both ideas/arguments that back them up AND personal motivations. Motivation is totally relevant. If an author has a particular goal, he will use particular words and examples to achieve that goal. It's not that hard to detach oneself emotionally from a specimen of "argument" and see what the human behind the argument is trying to do. The ability to do this is not a weakness or a drawback in any way. The ability to see what it is that you're trying to accomplish with the examples that you use and the tone that you take is a strength. If you discount the importance of understanding motivation in argument, you make yourself vulnerable to manipulation.

 

[Orangey]

[QUOTE: bluewing]Thus when they say the wall is red, they are not talking about the actual wall, but about their feelings about the wall. And of course whether or not they be saying it is red depends on their mood and the moods of those around them. It all depends on whether or not they like red or those they converse with do, and of course a myriad of subjective emotional implications that go along with this.

Why would the feeling function affect a person's ability to correctly perceive reality? Do we decide what to accept as real? For instance, when I look at a Coke can, do I have to consciously decide that it is red? I don't think that perception has anything to do with judgment because it's only after we perceive that we can make a judgment on anything at all. When looking at a red wall, both a thinker and a feeler would take in the same sensory data (granted, of course, that they are not under the influence of hallucinogens) and note that the wall is red. A feeling judgment can then be made with this data, and we can either like or dislike the color of the wall, given our particular tastes. Making a feeling judgment is not necessary in the situation (in which case we may neither like nor dislike the color of the wall), but if we do make one it will only tell us whether we like the red wall or not- not whether the wall is red.

 

[Orangey]

I'm interested in both ideas/arguments that back them up AND personal motivations. Motivation is totally relevant. If an author has a particular goal, he will use particular words and examples to achieve that goal. It's not that hard to detach oneself emotionally from a specimen of "argument" and see what the human behind the argument is trying to do. The ability to do this is not a weakness or a drawback in any way. The ability to see what it is that you're trying to accomplish with the examples that you use and the tone that you take is a strength. If you discount the importance of understanding motivation in argument, you make yourself vulnerable to manipulation.

It isn't a drawback, but it also isn't an argument in itself. One can note the possible motivations behind an argument in order to guard oneself against manipulation, but to simply state what you believe to be the motivation is not a counterargument.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Why would the feeling function affect a person's ability to correctly perceive reality? Do we decide what to accept as real? For instance, when I look at a Coke can, do I have to consciously decide that it is red? I don't think that perception has anything to do with judgment because it's only after we perceive that we can make a judgment on anything at all. When looking at a red wall, both a thinker and a feeler would take in the same sensory data (granted, of course, that they are not under the influence of hallucinogens) and note that the wall is red. A feeling judgment can then be made with this data, and we can either like or dislike the color of the wall, given our particular tastes. Making a feeling judgment is not necessary in the situation (in which case we may neither like nor dislike the color of the wall), but if we do make one it will only tell us whether we like the red wall or not- not whether the wall is red.

Because Feeling is entangled in our personal preferrences which easily deludes us into thinking that things are the way we wish they were.

 

[htb]

While we're making demands for consistency: mysteries are solved; claims, assertions or statements are debunked.

 

[Eileen]

It isn't a drawback, but it also isn't an argument in itself. One can note the possible motivations behind an argument in order to guard oneself against manipulation, but to simply state what you believe to be the motivation is not a counterargument.

Well, okay. It's not (in itself) an argument to understand the motivation that someone has while making an argument. That information cannot itself discount facts. But I read this "argument" of Bluewing's here and, like you (Orangey), note that the "red" paragraph seems bizarre and illogical and (like Jennifer) note that BW is somehow presenting Bin Laden as the posterchild for NF communication. More interesting to me (an NF?) is what it is that he's trying to accomplish here. I typed out a paragraph similar to yours re: the argument regarding color, but it seemed so illogical that I didn't feel that it was even necessary to tear it down because it's so apparently flawed. What's more interesting to me is WHY Bluewing would make such a strange argument.

Bluewing doesn't want this type of conversation in his thread at all, as he has explicitly stated. I suppose what he wants is for everybody to contribute to why NFs are a bunch of assholes? I'm not entirely sure.

Edit: contribute "logically" of course. Make sure all examples make sense. Please model them after the argument regarding the red wall.

 

[phoenix13]

Feelers tend to make decisions not based on objective reality, but on value judgments. On their feelings about reality.
...

Ha! So, what you're saying is: I'm pissed. Here's a box. Let's put Fs in it.

Well, against your will, I'll reply at your level: Screw you ! All intps are lame, cold heartless bastards. You're all inferior to my master social manipulations, and are thus worthless. QED.

Note: That was not representative of my true feelings which can only be described as happy or sad and thus good or bad because I only make decisions based on emotions, as that's all I'm capable of. Where's my box?! Oh, here it is *hops in*

 

[colmena]

All intps are lame, cold heartless bastards. You're all inferior to my master social manipulations, and are thus worthless.

This is a self-fulfilling prophecy for me, anyway.

 

[cafe]

Ha! So, what you're saying is: I'm pissed. Here's a box. Let's put Fs in it.

Well, against your will, I'll reply at your level: Screw you ! All intps are lame, cold heartless bastards. You're all inferior to my master social manipulations, and are thus worthless. QED.

Note: That was not representative of my true feelings which can only be described as happy or sad and thus good or bad because I only make decisions based on emotions, as that's all I'm capable of. Where's my box?! Oh, here it is *hops in*

C'mon, cut the guy some slack. It's obvious someone has hurt his feelings.

 

[colmena]

for bluewing

*squeezes*

 

[phoenix13]

Aw, no! Don't go mushy on me! I want combat! for BlueWing!

 

[Blackwater]

Follow up on Bin Laden.

Why don't you include this as a footnote in your OP, Bluewing?

More on this thread later.

 

[SillySapienne]

Ha! So, what you're saying is: I'm pissed. Here's a box. Let's put Fs in it.

Well, against your will, I'll reply at your level: Screw you ! All intps are lame, cold heartless bastards. You're all inferior to my master social manipulations, and are thus worthless. QED.

Note: That was not representative of my true feelings which can only be described as happy or sad and thus good or bad because I only make decisions based on emotions, as that's all I'm capable of. Where's my box?! Oh, here it is *hops in*

 

[Orangey]

Well, okay. It's not (in itself) an argument to understand the motivation that someone has while making an argument. That information cannot itself discount facts. But I read this "argument" of Bluewing's here and, like you (Orangey), note that the "red" paragraph seems bizarre and illogical and (like Jennifer) note that BW is somehow presenting Bin Laden as the posterchild for NF communication. More interesting to me (an NF?) is what it is that he's trying to accomplish here. I typed out a paragraph similar to yours re: the argument regarding color, but it seemed so illogical that I didn't feel that it was even necessary to tear it down because it's so apparently flawed. What's more interesting to me is WHY Bluewing would make such a strange argument.

Bluewing doesn't want this type of conversation in his thread at all, as he has explicitly stated. I suppose what he wants is for everybody to contribute to why NFs are a bunch of assholes? I'm not entirely sure.

Edit: contribute "logically" of course. Make sure all examples make sense. Please model them after the argument regarding the red wall.

Yes, it does seem as though he wants to provoke people more than actually "argue" the point. He made a similar thread somewhere else (I'm too lazy to link to it at the moment). I just don't think that it proves much of anything to keep on saying that he's just "frustrated with an F in his life".

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Yes, it does seem as though he wants to provoke people more than actually "argue" the point. He made a similar thread somewhere else (I'm too lazy to link to it at the moment). I just don't think that it proves much of anything to keep on saying that he's just "frustrated with an F in his life".

No! No! It is a matter of feel! Don't know exactly, but you're wrong! I am feeling tired, maybe now I'm not in the mood, but if I wasn't right it wouldn't be so hard to explain why you're not!

You ought to feel this way, just trust me I know what I am talking about, nothing great has been done in the world without passion!

 

[Orangey]

Because Feeling is entangled in our personal preferrences which easily deludes us into thinking that things are the way we wish they were.

If this is true, then we must all be deluded because we all have a feeling function (even if it's not preferred). Or are you saying that it's the degree to which one is a feeler that affects the level of perception distortion?

 

[Zergling]

Yes, it does seem as though he wants to provoke people more than actually "argue" the point. He made a similar thread somewhere else (I'm too lazy to link to it at the moment). I just don't think that it proves much of anything to keep on saying that he's just "frustrated with an F in his life".

There are several similar thread on these forums, though from a year or so ago.

 

[Orangey]

No! No! It is a matter of feel! Don't know exactly, but you're wrong! I am feeling tired, maybe now I'm not in the mood, but if I wasn't right it wouldn't be so hard to explain why you're not!

You ought to feel this way, just trust me I know what I am talking about, nothing great has been done in the world without passion!

While I do enjoy the theatrics, I'm still not convinced that the feeling function alone (or at all) is responsible for what you're illustrating. That just seems like pure emotion (and laziness). The decisions that the feeling function would be responsible for fundamentally elide logical justification. Take aesthetic preference as an example. How am I supposed to logically justify why I don't prefer Dadaism? I can't, and it isn't appropriate to that type of decision anyway.

 

[phoenix13]

While I do enjoy the theatrics, I'm still not convinced that the feeling function alone (or at all) is responsible for what you're illustrating. That just seems like pure emotion (and laziness). The decisions that the feeling function would be responsible for fundamentally elide logical justification. Take aesthetic preference as an example. How am I supposed to logically justify why I don't prefer Dadaism? I can't, and it isn't appropriate to that type of decision anyway.

Here is the heart of cognitive process appreciation. It is not appropriate to use feeling to evaluate the empirical formula of a monosaccharide just as it is not appropriate to use impersonal reasoning to nurse a broken soul back to health. As Oprah would say, both are valuable and you need both to function in this world.