[MBTI General] F mystery debunked

[SolitaryWalker]

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[Totenkindly]

What's always interesting to me is when a T-based person can write an F-based rant while cloaking it in enough T-rationale so that they can fool themselves as to the origin of their discomfort, even if others can recognize it easily enough.

Your discomfort with F-driven folks is just yet another personal value, and this response to your discomfort is not objective at all. If you were objective, you could step beyond your personal experience and give F people as much validity in regards to approaching life in their own instinctive way as you give your own more T-style approach. Assuming your own approach is more valid seems horribly myopic to me.

So what terribly personal experience with F's who have failed you has preceded this particular rant, or is it just another periodic general culmination of your disappointment with F people?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

What's always interesting to me is when a T-based person can write an F-based rant while cloaking it in enough T-rationale so that they can fool themselves as to the origin of their discomfort, even if others can recognize it easily enough.

Your discomfort with F-driven folks is just yet another personal value, and this response to your discomfort is not objective at all. If you were objective, you could step beyond your personal experience and give F people as much validity in regards to approaching life in their own instinctive way as you give your own more T-style approach. Assuming your own approach is more valid seems horribly myopic to me.

So what terribly personal experience with F's who have failed you has preceded this particular rant, or is it just another periodic general culmination of your disappointment with F people?

Personal values are fine so long as you can clearly explain what your personal values are, why you have them and what role they will play in your relationship with the other person.

Jennifer, I have doubts that you are a T. I ask that you refrain from posting in this thread again. I did not say that Fs have no value, only that I have a problem with them.

 

[Totenkindly]

Personal values are fine so long as you can clearly explain what your personal values are, why you have them and what role they will play in your relationship with the other person.

I don't think you do that.

And if you do, you haven't yet realized it's more a sign of immaturity in regards to your personal development than any wonderful assess of the other person. The values one holds and how one chooses to express them and apply them to others is a litmus test for one's own progress in life.

(Sorry, that's blunt; but I figure you're T enough to take it.)

I mean, honestly, purposefully associating F people with Bin Laden, a known terrorist, speaking gibberish, out of all the examples you could have offered: That wasn't very T at all, that was definitely an emotional kneejerk reaction. Among other ways you chose to say things.

Part of me feels like the thread belongs in the Graveyard because of its underlying intent. But maybe it's also good in the NT section, where you placed it.. more as an example of some of the stresses T's undergo when dealing with F people as well as some of the typical but unproductive reactions T's might have.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

And if you do, you haven't yet realized it's more a sign of immaturity in regards to your personal development than any wonderful assess of the other person. The values one holds and how one chooses to express them and apply them to others is a litmus test for one's own progress in life.

(Sorry, that's blunt; but I figure you're T enough to take it.).

This is the reason I asked you to stop posting here.

It is a sign of immaturity to express your principles in clear, definite terms?

Interesting...

Another reason I ask you refrain from posting here.

I mean, honestly, purposefully associating F people with Bin Laden, a known terrorist, speaking gibberish, out of all the examples you could have offered: That wasn't very T at all, that was definitely an emotional kneejerk reaction. Among other ways you chose to say things..).

Bin Laden had nothing to do with the message. The message was all about speaking 'jibberish'.

I have explained this in great detail. Jibberish is a term used to depict Fs failing to give logical structure to the thoughts they express. Is jibberish an exaggeration an inaccurate term to depict logically inconsistent statements? I do not think so, as arguments that are logically inconsistent are unsound by definition. They are simply non-sense. In order to make sense of them we need to restructure the argument and purge the logical inconsistencies.

 

[Uytuun]

I shall quote here what I also put in the INTP appreciation thread yesterday:

they are limited in what they can see *Ti* and seem to have a problem with acknowledging they don't have the überperspective on things. I've also found them to be a type that can be very unaccepting of other kinds of types.

Speaking of value judgements...

Ironically, you reproach feelers for not being able to/not making the effort to hold up to your principle-based standard, but at the same time you refuse to acknowledge the validity of their perspective.

It is incredibly frustrating how self-assured they may be and how on a heat of passion they may assert their opinions with great vehemence hardly paying attention to the fact that what they say has very little, if any basis in objective reality.

More irony.

You're entitled to rant, but you've hardly debunked the F mystery.

As is the case for Fs with Ts, every T under the sun probably has had issues with F-style processing, myself included.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I shall quote here what I also put in the INTP appreciation thread yesterday:



Speaking of value judgements...

Ironically, you reproach feelers for not being able to/not making the effort to hold up to your principle-based standard, but at the same time you refuse to acknowledge the validity of their perspective.

I am okay with whatever values they have (which often is compassion and the great fruit this yields) as long as they are able to state this clearly and stay consistent.

 

[WobblyStilettos]

I am okay with whatever values they have (which often is compassion and the great fruit this yields) as long as they are able to state this clearly and stay consistent.

I think, if you believe that feelings/values can actually be consistent, let alone put into words in a satisfactory manner, then you are a long, loooong way off debunking the F mystery.

 

[Uytuun]

I am okay with whatever values they have (which often is compassion and the great fruit this yields) as long as they are able to state this clearly and stay consistent.

Yes, of course you are, because then they become similar to your own inner principles. But as you well know, there are many other functions besides Ti and they often are very different in their being fluid and whimsical rather than consistent and clear.

It so happens that I had a conversation about Ti vs. other functions with my ESTP brother last night and it seems to be exceedingly difficult for Ti to go beyond itself because that would be almost self-destructive since it appears to be the foundation of your existence. It seems to be a vicious cycle of sorts. My bro said it was very interesting to see how people could have such a different stance in life nonetheless. Interestingly, I had the opportunity to link this theoretical exercise to practice this morning. My brother thought that I was lying to him because I had done something that to him seemed illogical and it took me an emotional outburst+reasoning and explanation to convince him that I was not lying, but had simply done something that didn't follow a+b=c. He commented on something specifically INTJ the moment before, so we learn a lot from one another.

 

[Owl]

I do not think so, as arguments that are logically inconsistent are unsound by definition.

Only if the conclusion is inconsistent with the premises. If the premises themselves are inconsistent then the argument is trivially sound because there is no instance where such an argument can have (all) true premises, and a sound argument is defined as an argument such that if the premises are true, then the conclusion cannot be false.



Edit: Trivially valid. Corrected by Orangey.

 

[Totenkindly]

This is the reason I asked you to stop posting here. It is a sign of immaturity to express your principles in clear, definite terms? Interesting... Another reason I ask you refrain from posting here.

Sorry, chuck. You wanted to diatribe, then you leave yourself wide open to rebuttal. Any T knows that and accepts it.

Badgering, sleight of hand, bullying, and whatever else you have stored in your bag of tricks doesn't behoove a mature T. Let's discuss your post instead, shall we?

Your response again is a kneejerk one... coming more out of your feelings than your logic.

Bin Laden had nothing to do with the message. The message was all about speaking 'jibberish'.

One large problem with T's is that, when young, they do not dig into their feelings enough to realize when their feelings impact their "T" style statements.

Now, as I said, you could have picked myriad examples to convey the idea that you could not understand what a person was saying. Instead, you chose one of the most notable and publicly despised global terrorists (from an American POV). Step outside your framework, and see what you DIDN'T select. You didn't even have to post a video trailer. But you did.

Drama queen. Seriously. You wanted to lash out at people you're upset with, and you wanted to make a splash.

And it's only the most obvious example in your diatribe.

A lot of your post is coming from unresolvable frustration with the F people in your life; but you seem to run from that thought, because it's emotional and unsettling, and instead use your stronger T sense to weave some sort of disguise for it so that you can actually articulate it without being ashamed that you too have values and deep-seated emotions.

I have explained this in great detail. Jibberish is a term used to depict Fs failing to give logical structure to the thoughts they express. Is jibberish an exaggeration an inaccurate term to depict logically inconsistent statements? I do not think so, as arguments that are logically inconsistent are unsound by definition. They are simply non-sense. In order to make sense of them we need to restructure the argument and purge the logical inconsistencies.

Rationalizations. See above. You reveal more about your inner workings by what you did NOT choose, rather than necessarily the path you did.

 

[Orangey]

Only if the conclusion is inconsistent with the premises. If the premises themselves are inconsistent then the argument is trivially sound because there is no instance where such an argument can have (all) true premises, and a sound argument is defined as an argument such that if the premises are true, then the conclusion cannot be false.

No, it is trivially valid, not sound. Soundness is when an argument is valid and has true premises.

 

[Economica]

Bin Laden had nothing to do with the message. The message was all about speaking 'jibberish'.

I have explained this in great detail. Jibberish is a term used to depict Fs failing to give logical structure to the thoughts they express. Is jibberish an exaggeration an inaccurate term to depict logically inconsistent statements? I do not think so, as arguments that are logically inconsistent are unsound by definition. They are simply non-sense. In order to make sense of them we need to restructure the argument and purge the logical inconsistencies.

Hello BW (& BW ),

I have to say I agree with Jennifer that the Bin Laden injection is an expression of feeling, that feeling being your contemptuous frustration with Feelers. I acknowledge that the injection also contains a wry humorous element, but the feeling is expressed nevertheless through the comparison. Emotional content doesn't go away just because you're oblivious to it. (I should know. :blushing (Blackwater, wouldn't Foucault back me up here?)

I'd add that I actually sympathize with much of your OP, BlueWing, but I don't want to rub you the wrong way by expressing empty agreement, thereby implying that I expect you to respond to it on an emotional level.

Just FYI I'm off for tonight but I'll be back tomorrow.

 

[Orangey]

A lot of your post is coming from unresolvable frustration with the F people in your life; but you seem to run from that thought, because it's emotional and unsettling, and instead use your stronger T sense to weave some sort of disguise for it so that you can actually articulate it without being ashamed that you too have values and deep-seated emotions.

Speculation as to his psychological motivations for making the original post can only function as a tool to discredit the OP personally. Even if if were true that this stems from "frustration with the F people" in his life, it would have no bearing on the arguments he presented in his first post. Just saying.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Speculation as to his psychological motivations for making the original post can only function as a tool to discredit the OP personally. Even if if were true that this stems from "frustration with the F people" in his life, it would have no bearing on the arguments he presented in his first post. Just saying.

This is why I dont want Fs posting here. They, like Jennifer arent interested in ideas and arguments that back them up, only in personal motivations of people who propound them.

 

[01011010]

You know feelers function a certain way. Other thinkers know it as well. That's obvious given they operate from a completely different cognitive function. It's your subjective opinion that they're negative. This really comes off as an emotional (dislike) thread against feelers. Thinkers aren't superior to feelers. If feelers didn't exist, the entire world would be a completely different place. A less colorful place.

I won't pretend to understand the motivations or actions of a feeler, but I appreciate that they exist. I admire their passion and depth of emotion. Feelings are not a weakness. The exception is if negative action accompanies it.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Read more carefully.

I won't pretend to understand the motivations or actions of a feeler, but I appreciate that they exist. I admire their passion and depth of emotion. Feelings are not a weakness. The exception is if negative action accompanies it.

That is all great stuff, my problem with them is that they dont express their values clearly and dont stick to them. Tired of saying this over and over again...

 

[colmena]

I finally pluck up the courage to read a BlueWing post, and this is what I get.


I wish you'd just called them a bunch of cocks.

The irony is too much.

*runs away crying*

 

[01011010]

That is all great stuff, my problem with them is that they dont express their values clearly and dont stick to them. Tired of saying this over and over again...

Do you think that is true of every single one of them? I'm just curious.

 

[Uytuun]

That is all great stuff, my problem with them is that they dont express their values clearly and dont stick to them. Tired of saying this over and over again...

I refer you back to my last post, BlueWing.