[Fe] ESFJ e2 "The People's ENFP"

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

^Maybe kids simply gang up on the smarter, more inquisitive children in some age-old battle of royalty vs peasant.

Just as they can gang up on the retarded or challenged ones.

Like a bell curve, those that fall at either side become ostracized by society.?

 

[prplchknz]

Isn't the lovability/affirmation thing part of just being a 2, though?

I agree with your thing about "life force." I am not an ENFP, but I relate myself.

I was an inquisitive child who basically fed off possibilities and patterns and stuff - but it wasn't to entertain; I was just being me and expressing my desire for life and its answers. People actually criticized me for that sort of thing. One time a girl made me her enemy because I annoyed her with too many "what if" questions. And I did not understand why. There are many examples of this in my childhood. I was not trying to be funny or to gain lovability; I was trying to process, express myself, and find answers.

But, I know part of this thread is about feeling upset about NFP mistypes trying to speak for other NFPs, or representing their struggle. Some people here do not agree with my NFP typing (even though I am settled on it), so you can disregard what I say then. I do not speak for other NFPs anyway. I represent myself alone.

I am really just posing a question for the NFPs to see if this is on the mark for you guys. Not trying to make an assertion about everyone. Again, it's just me.

i think you're young and should stay with NFP until you get older and more developed brain and reass but keep an open mind like don't change your type because some one goes OMG your a ESFJ aahhhh but consider it. i do that and usually i go nope and sometimes that makes them mad, but the thing is we're not your brain so we can't say 100% certaintiy.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

The whole thing about ESFJs basking in tradition...

That's why this continues to happen. I have met people of all types who to some degree adhere to some form(s) of tradition in various aspects of their lives. Anyone who wears socks is adhering to a tradition. I vote that the word "tradition" be banned from all xSxJ type profiles. It's become a hot word that people associate with a specific type or types, not unlike how people associate words like "authenticity" with NFPs or "analytical" with any IxTx type. A more constructive endeavour would be to examine how different types might approach and regard various traditions.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

I think this happens because the general idea of an ENFP is fairly inaccurate. They are usually described as the people people, the ones who are loved everywhere they go and the ones who can adapt to any social situation and handle it with style. Many people think that ENFPs are those happy go lucky rainbow vomiting unicorns who don't have a trouble in the world. I can imagine how many ESFJs would relate to such characteristics as those ideas are close to their Fe.

The truth is ENFPs can be real weirdos. Their Ne makes them fascinated with everything weird, unusual and innovative which can seem provocative for a lot of people and their curiosity and sense of wonder can be too much to handle.
Fi makes them want to connect only with the special few, with "their" people and it also makes them emotionally vulnerable and prone to difficult feelings so they really are far from being those happy go lucky butterflies.

When you look only at the superficial behaviors of ENFPs they can often seem as happy and charismatic people, but when you go deeper there is actually far more to this type than that.

 

[thoughtlost]

Isn't the lovability/affirmation thing part of just being a 2, though?

I agree with your thing about "life force." I am not an ENFP, but I relate myself.

I was an inquisitive child who basically fed off possibilities and patterns and stuff - but it wasn't to entertain; I was just being me and expressing my desire for life and its answers. People actually criticized me for that sort of thing. One time a girl made me her enemy because I annoyed her with too many "what if" questions. And I did not understand why. There are many examples of this in my childhood. I was not trying to be funny or to gain lovability; I was trying to process, express myself, and find answers.

But, I know part of this thread is about feeling upset about NFP mistypes trying to speak for other NFPs, or representing their struggle. Some people here do not agree with my NFP typing (even though I am settled on it), so you can disregard what I say then. I do not speak for other NFPs anyway. I represent myself alone.

I am really just posing a question for the NFPs to see if this is on the mark for you guys. Not trying to make an assertion about everyone. Again, it's just me.

Well, I am not upset that there are mistypes. I know that I am bad at typing, so I don't blame other people if they get it wrong (or at least I try not to because I don't enjoy being unfair). It's kind of useless to be annoyed with people mistyping themselves because at the end of the day, you are who you are.

Anyway, I am like you in that way too. My sisters HATE it when I asked too many questions as a kid. I also could not understand why they would get so impatient with me asking too many questions. My dad hates it too lol. My mom just looks at me like I am crazy, but she is nice about it. I am definitely known to be inquisitive. I joke with my friends saying that I wish I could get a degree studying everything (but sometimes, I am not joking). I am sort of happy that I am in a place in my life where I can get paid to learn and then share it xDDD

Oh, and the affirmation thing. I am not a core 2 (but I am sure that I am a core 6 ...but I could have 2 in my tritype idk yet). Even as a 6, I feel that I need affirmation. Not in the, "am I loved/wanted??" sense (although I can feel that once in a while), but in another sense that I cannot articulate. I will have to think about that more....

edit: AAH!! [MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] said something that sparked my thoughts. So affirmation is not just a 2 thing. As a non-2, affirmation is not about creating an identity and wanting people to admire/love me for it. And that's all I got for now.

...Damn it... I still need to think about my thoughts. Something isn't coming out right haha.

 

[HongDou]

Isn't the lovability/affirmation thing part of just being a 2, though?

Yeah, that's the core motivation. But with the ESFJ part I talked about it in my conversation with prpz. ESFJs focus on how they can influence the feelings of others, so if they want to bring a positive mood to the room and be an upbeat social facilitator (which is most of the time - Get Things Going) that's the direction these people's ENFPs will go.

Most ENFPs are 7s so we're not some sort of anti-joker or anything. I think we learn at an early age to not take life too seriously and relish in our idealized aspect (The Yellow) to escape from feelings of pain and deprivation. But the difference is 2 is an image type and wants to feel love for the identity its created for itself. This kind of ties into my text-heavy post on page 3 about how ESFJ 2s will vibe consistently more Pe than ENFJ 2s, because ESFJs have an overall "lighter" and "softer" approach than the rest of the ExxJ types. So the ESFJ silliness is much more steady than the ENFP silliness as its been incorporated into their image, while 7s will explore a multitude of pursuits to avoid pain. Hell, some 7s can even appear 4ish and use introspection as a distraction tool if they're still dancing around their real problems. In that sense I think 2 is much more consistently Positive Outlook than 7.

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] feel free to clarify or jump in on any of the stuff I'm saying haha

 

[Hawthorne]

Isn't the lovability/affirmation thing part of just being a 2, though?

Oh, and the affirmation thing. I am not a core 2 (but I am sure that I am a core 6 ...but I could have 2 in my tritype idk yet). Even as a 6, I feel that I need affirmation. Not in the, "am I loved/wanted??" sense (although I can feel that once in a while), but in another sense that I cannot articulate. I will have to think about that more....

Hornevian triads, specifically the super-ego compliant group, seems to be the shared element. There was a decent excerpt from one of the Riso-Huds books but I'd have to actually look for it and oh dear that's a problem, but i will try.

 

[thoughtlost]

Hornevian triads, specifically the super-ego compliant group, seems to be the shared element. There was a decent excerpt from one of the Riso-Huds books but I'd have to actually look for it and oh dear that's a problem, but i will try.

If you cannot find it, don't worry! I found something that talked about it. But only a little:

Enneagram Triads: 2. Hornevian Groups - enneagram philosophy

Yes, both of us seem to be of the same triad. I have always known how much I am influenced by other people's perspective; so the only thing I don't relate to is how "unaware" they are for knowing that society influences them.

...Baby, I know.

However, there is a 2 in my life who REALLY doesn't know how much she is influenced by the opinions outside of her. It's quite scary, actually. I mean, I guess she realizes it ...but still WANTS to go with it. Like, I feel like I am always in a battle with society/other's desires. She tells me that is one way in which she differs from me. She is comfortable accepting how things are whereas I am not. I am always challenging things.

 

[Starry]

The whole thing about ESFJs basking in tradition...

That's why this continues to happen. I have met people of all types who to some degree adhere to some form(s) of tradition in various aspects of their lives. Anyone who wears socks is adhering to a tradition. I vote that the word "tradition" be banned from all xSxJ type profiles. It's become a hot word that people associate with a specific type or types, not unlike how people associate words like "authenticity" with NFPs or "analytical" with any IxTx type. A more constructive endeavour would be to examine how different types might approach and regard various traditions.

Thank you. Whoever you are.


*sprinkles angry dust*

 

[Starry]

I think this happens because the general idea of an ENFP is fairly inaccurate. They are usually described as the people people, the ones who are loved everywhere they go and the ones who can adapt to any social situation and handle it with style. Many people think that ENFPs are those happy go lucky rainbow vomiting unicorns who don't have a trouble in the world. I can imagine how many ESFJs would relate to such characteristics as those ideas are close to their Fe.

The truth is ENFPs can be real weirdos. Their Ne makes them fascinated with everything weird, unusual and innovative which can seem provocative for a lot of people and their curiosity and sense of wonder can be too much to handle.
Fi makes them want to connect only with the special few, with "their" people and it also makes them emotionally vulnerable and prone to difficult feelings so they really are far from being those happy go lucky butterflies.

When you look only at the superficial behaviors of ENFPs they can often seem as happy and charismatic people, but when you go deeper there is actually far more to this type than that.

Great post

 

[Cellmold]

What did [MENTION=6723]phobik[/MENTION] do to you? lol

Released mi 4ull poetunshul.

Frm noaw un, th1ss w3l beeea mah tru4lyfe styal.

 

[EcK]

There are statements on this site that are very un-pc to say...but I'd probably give my right arm about now to be ESFJ. Likewise, I have good tobacco and it's not for your ugly nose.


Does the ENTP have any of these?

We've got a large population (ESFJ) with one of the shittiest, most limiting descriptions...that so many of these brilliant, dynamic folks can't even begin to relate to...

with a smaller population (ENFP) that has a (currently) flattering(?) description and/or a description that *feels* like it fits...it is easier to squeeze into (which is easier to do if you are an image type on the enneagram).

Due to the fact we're dealing with a larger population...the mistypes can theoretically out-number the accurately typed and change what we understand to make-up the type.

Not sure how to react to that as the post was a tad confused/confusing.
Also I don't smoke..and my nose is fine.

In case of descriptions I guess that would depend on the test. I doubt every test has unflattering discriptions of ESFJs and flattering descriptions of ENFP.

As a matter of fact no description should be flattering, if it is it should probably be discarded due to bias. The purpose of a description is NOT to be flattering but to be as accurate as possible for the greatest number of people testing within that type. (discounting borderline cases with weak preferences for which the mbti should not be used)

So when you talk about it as if it's some kind of universal .. it's doubtful that that's true.
Regarding the mistypes... not sure what you mean. If the MBTI doesn't describe someone they shouldn't use it. I guess it's as simple as that.

The system has 16 types, there are bound to be borderline types etc. that are not represented by either type.

 

[Starry]

i think you're young and should stay with NFP until you get older and more developed brain and reass but keep an open mind like don't change your type because some one goes OMG your a ESFJ aahhhh but consider it. i do that and usually i go nope and sometimes that makes them mad, but the thing is we're not your brain so we can't say 100% certaintiy.

Here's another great point and one that weighs heavily on my mind because I don't know which side to error on.


I'm NFP. And so how much of a shit do you think I actually give when it pertains to who types themselves as what? We come from the land of individual and thus multiple realities. If someone insists they are ENFP and I insist they are ESFJ...both are now true to me on some level and I'm absolutely fine with that.

As unfortunate as it may be for NeFi, Typology does appear to cry out for some degree of collective understanding. What the hell am I supposed to do now? Collective understanding requires honest and ongoing discussion. And so now I'm thinking there should be something in the FAQs that states outright "if discussing type...including your own causes you distress...then this is not the place for you"

In this specific example (ESFJ 2) the challenge is compounded. I'm not just suggesting an individual may be incorrect...I am suggesting they are a type that is plagued with more negative stereotypes than I can even identify in my mind at the moment (and I'm most likely suggesting it to someone that has an image investment in being seen in a particular way.)

^^No ENFP or INFP challenges individual members that we suspect are part of our "common mistype" because our common mistype just happens to also be a massive insult. Because of this...we start to feel no one understands who we are as a type to begin with. So why have typology? If it doesn't work for everyone? You know...the usual questions are running through my mind.

 

[Masokissed]

All I have to say is that I could never mistake an ESFJ for ENFP. But also, they are far more flexible then their stereotypes. I have met some that are ExFP-ish, but the difference is that their attention is always focused on people at large, while mine is always zeroed in on me. This difference in our views has often caused friction with me and ESFJs, sometimes a little (like, enough for us to get over it and get along) or sometimes a lot. I also really don't find people acting like ENFPs 'cute'. Say, pretending to have a super short attention span for laughs, since my attention span is something I've actually struggled with my entire life.

 

[Starry]

Not sure how to react to that as the post was a tad confused/confusing.
Also I don't smoke..and my nose is fine.

In case of descriptions I guess that would depend on the test. I doubt every test has unflattering discriptions of ESFJs and flattering descriptions of ENFP.

As a matter of fact no description should be flattering, if it is it should probably be discarded due to bias. The purpose of a description is NOT to be flattering but to be as accurate as possible for the greatest number of people testing within that type. (discounting borderline cases with weak preferences for which the mbti should not be used)

So when you talk about it as if it's some kind of universal .. it's doubtful that that's true.
Regarding the mistypes... not sure what you mean. If the MBTI doesn't describe someone they shouldn't use it. I guess it's as simple as that.

The system has 16 types, there are bound to be borderline types etc. that are not represented by either type.

Thanks for this...this helps because I agree and can see where I'm not explaining myself properly. I will try to eventually fix.

 

[prplchknz]

Here's another great point and one that weighs heavily on my mind because I don't know which side to error on.


I'm NFP. And so how much of a shit do you think I actually give when it pertains to who types themselves as what? We come from the land of individual and thus multiple realities. If someone insists they are ENFP and I insist they are ESFJ...both are now true to me on some level and I'm absolutely fine with that.

As unfortunate as it may be for NeFi, Typology does appear to cry out for some degree of collective understanding. What the hell am I supposed to do now? Collective understanding requires honest and ongoing discussion. And so now I'm thinking there should be something in the FAQs that states outright "if discussing type...including your own causes you distress...then this is not the place for you"

In this specific example (ESFJ 2) the challenge is compounded. I'm not just suggesting an individual may be incorrect...I am suggesting they are a type that is plagued with more negative stereotypes than I can even identify in my mind at the moment (and I'm most likely suggesting it to someone that has an image investment in being seen in a particular way.)

^^No ENFP or INFP challenges individual members that we suspect are part of our "common mistype" because our common mistype just happens to also be a massive insult. Because of this...we start to feel no one understands who we are as a type to begin with. So why have typology? If it doesn't work for everyone? You know...the usual questions are running through my mind.

I absolutly agree with the bolded and it's frustrating because some of the mistypes rub others the wrong way and i get you're not like the other INFPs on the site which i hate. and it's like ugh and I've been guilty of that shunning all NFPs because of this. But I'm more INFP then your mothers finger, which may or may not be very INFP i dunno. and i get a lot of oh infps are sensitive special snowflakes and yeah i'm sensitive but i don't often let it show and i don't go around the forum going my feeeeelings oooh you hurt my feeelings i will tell you if i think you're a dick but once its dealt with and you don't keep at me i'll probably forget about it. so I see a lot of that. and that's where the issue is for me trying to say that's not how i am at all. I like ESFJs i actually get along with healthy people of any type, but then again i'm able to do that.

 

[EcK]

Thanks for this...this helps because I agree and can see where I'm not explaining myself properly. I will try to eventually fix.

You're welcome. And in case it was taken personaly: my initial post was a joke.

 

[Starry]

You're welcome. And in case it was taken personaly: my initial post was a joke.

Fi

yes, I totally understood you were joking haha

 

[Starry]

ok! I am back.

The reason why I am interested in this thread is because when I was starting out, I always got typed as ENFP/INFP and occasionally ISFP. Of course, some people got closer to the truth. But the overwhelming opinion was that I was NFP or ...at least FP.

At first, I rolled with it, but it didn't feel like me. I mean, I am "bouncy". I tend to feel awkward because notice I have more "energy" than most people and sometimes I feel ashamed/embarrassed about it (because I notice that I am different from people in that way and people do point that out. I roll with it when they do that and continue being playful/silly/expressive ...but deep down I am ashamed of how I come across in social settings). And yes, people do comment on how strange/quirky I am (again, I roll with that).

At the end of the day, when I read Fe descriptions, I relate to that the most. The shame comes from worrying that my actions prevent me from the one thing that I want ...which is a deep connection. Being playful and silly, while it keeps people laughing (and it's nice because you don't create enemies ...and even if you don't like a person ...you can just put on that mask and keep things chill), doesn't get me what I want. And then I constantly wonder what is wrong with me.

Basically, my finger is always on the pulse of how I am relating to others.

...somehow, I don't see this as a Fi thing.

Trying to go through this linearly and read some of these posts with more thoughtfulness. And I just wanted to say that I loved this. Simply beautiful.

I wanted to add that my finger is not always on the pulse of how I'm relating to others haha. This doesn't mean that I don't care deeply for others or that I do not wish for powerful connections (which I know you recognize - this is not something I'm "telling" you) but I do sorta view those things as being subsequent to me first being true to myself. There is a bit of an uncompromising element to Fi which all humans alike adore or so I'm told (haha.)
Thank you for your meaningful contribution.

 

[Starry]

Just noticed [MENTION=13646]Haven[/MENTION] liked the OP which kinda makes my evening. I miss your presence mister.