Envying "assertive" people.

[tony_goth]

Many people, especially those who suffer from shyness or excessive people-pleasing, will think "I wish I was more assertive".

Even people who've got average to high assertiveness think it's an absolute and ultimate value.

Here is my point of view :

Generally, it's the best not to show extremely low or high degrees of assertiveness, "extremely high" being the worst.

Basically because "assertiveness", I think, is "willingness to take risks".

And when you take a risk of a loss, you may be proud of yourself in the moment, but when the risk of loss becomes a certain loss, it HURTS. Period.

I knew countless "pushy" people who had been in relationship-related or social troubles, and who ended up lonely and withdrawn. Striving against shyness or excess of adaptation to people is fine. But seeking pushiness for itself may get you hurt in some way. Risks should be taken in a calculated and rational way, because emotionally-based risk-taking is usually a gamble. And gamblers know you might win sometimes, but on the long-term you lose all your money.

There are some lifestyles that do require being pushy (i.e. higher tolerance to risk), but even in those cases, risks should still be rationally measured, even approximately and/or quickly if appropriate. And in most cases these people should not imitated, and imitating their stereotypes is even worse.

The more you're aggressive the more you're likely to get incarcerated or face other kinds of penalties.

Do not be a fool.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I've been told for years to be more assertive, and recognize it would have helped my career. Internally I'm okay with who I am and resent people assuming I need to change. I'd rather find a way to live in the world naturally and true to who I am without feeling forced to pretend like I'm someone else. I even had someone tell me to practice the physical mannerisms of successful people in front of a mirror.

 

[Yara the Corpse]

I'm arguably less happier when I'm more assertive... it's far easier to be impatient with other people and notice everything wrong with a situation when you assert yourself more.

aka I'm naturally 9 with anger but when I become more assertive like an 8 I feel like I can't be at peace anymore, and become frustrated at everything

 

[Earl Grey]

The more you're aggressive the more you're likely to get incarcerated or face other kinds of penalties.

Do not be a fool.

Assertiveness is the quality of being self-assured and confident without being aggressive. In the field of psychology and psychotherapy, it is a skill that can be learned and a mode of communication.

Source: wikipedia.

Aggressiveness seems to be more about risk-taking. Here's more about assertiveness:

Assertiveness is a communication skill that can be taught and the skills of assertive communication effectively learned. Assertiveness is a method of critical thinking where an individual speaks up in defense of their views or in light of erroneous information. Assertive people are able to be outspoken and analyse information and point out areas of information lacking substance, details or evidence. Assertiveness supports creative thinking and effective communication.

[...] a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view.

You seem to be making a point, but you're pointing at the wrong thing, or the wrong definition. Folks shouldn't be brainlessly aggressive or dominating, this isn't the stone age. Folks could stand to be more assertive: forthright with their analyses, honest, and respect that comes with effective communication. It's not about bending someone down to your will, it's recognizing yourselves as equals and putting forth your fair share on the table.

 

[Earl Grey]

Oh, and my post above is why I'm very leery over people who spout left and right about being assertive and bending people to their will and getting their own way. They're a cheap walking caricature, usually, and once you pull the rug out from beneath them they just cry. It's fear-driven, and rather pathetic to watch. It's like a prey animal that decided to emulate the tiger, because it knows that it would be squished otherwise. It's broadcasted weakness.

If you only get 'assertive' because you fear losing something, or out of shame- might want to check your definition of assertive and what on earth you're doing.

 

[Maou]

I get described as assertive all the time, yet I do not identify that trait in myself. It is definitely a communication thing, and in how you say something. I believe why people say I am assertive, is how I do not beat around the bush with my statements. I say what's on my mind, regardless of the other person's feelings.

This also seems to often be a "The grass is greener on the other side of the fence." deal. "Non-assertive" people wish to express themselves more freely, but I am like "Why?". Being assertive does nothing but open you up to criticism from the group, and makes you responsible for everything you say, even if you didn't intend it a specific way. Aka, you single yourself out. If you don't have the mental fortitude to go against the group, you will have a bad time.

But like everything, moderation is important. Even assertive people are weak in some areas of life. It really isn't fine to think all assertive people are just fine with whatever insults you throw at them.

 

[Earl Grey]

[...] This also seems to often be a "The grass is greener on the other side of the fence." deal. "Non-assertive" people wish to express themselves more freely, but I am like "Why?". Being assertive does nothing but open you up to criticism from the group, and makes you responsible for everything you say, even if you didn't intend it a specific way. Aka, you single yourself out. If you don't have the mental fortitude to go against the group, you will have a bad time.

But like everything, moderation is important. Even assertive people are weak in some areas of life. It really isn't fine to think all assertive people are just fine with whatever insults you throw at them.

I've been in places / points in life where I got pressure for standing up and saying the right thing, even losing connections over it on a social level, to the point of becoming a social pariah. I must say, however, that personally- the freedom to choose the path I know is right for myself completely outweighs peaceful compliance, which does not give me any peace or enjoyment at all. I enjoy that simply existing the way I like is enough to invite criticism; it also opens up an avenue for me to refute their claims and turn it on them, to explain myself where applicable. I enjoy being responsible for the things I say.

For some reason as well, folks who are scared of me tend to only get scared initially, but then cozy up after. I do think that it's a symptom of assertiveness and aggressiveness/general assholery being mucked up and conflated with each other on a societal level. I do believe that it is possible to not be compliant, yet in a way that is not harmful or distasteful to others. I think people assume a correlation between assertiveness and blind, disrespectful, discourteous aggression too much, though it is not without cause.

However, I have since found that not many can find peace in living this way. As you say, everyone has 'weakness', even assertive people. I don't think folks who don't speak up are necessarily lacking in mental fortitude, but rather that it is possible that their strengths are elsewhere- I truly think so- not as a "Okay everyone is special and strong!" lip service. One may have mental fortitude in speaking up, but they only do so because keeping quiet is more painful. I think that if one wants to think about these in terms of fear and pain, people fundamentally just are more naturally motivated to choose things that are less painful and less fear-inducing for themselves.

 

[Maou]

I've been in places / points in life where I got pressure for standing up and saying the right thing, even losing connections over it on a social level, to the point of becoming a social pariah. I must say, however, that personally- the freedom to choose the path I know is right for myself completely outweighs peaceful compliance, which does not give me any peace or enjoyment at all. I enjoy that simply existing the way I like is enough to invite criticism; it also opens up an avenue for me to refute their claims and turn it on them, to explain myself where applicable. I enjoy being responsible for the things I say.

For some reason as well, folks who are scared of me tend to only get scared initially, but then cozy up after. I do think that it's a symptom of assertiveness and aggressiveness/general assholery being mucked up and conflated with each other on a societal level. I do believe that it is possible to not be compliant, yet in a way that is not harmful or distasteful to others. I think people assume a correlation between assertiveness and blind, disrespectful, discourteous aggression too much, though it is not without cause.

However, I have since found that not many can find peace in living this way. As you say, everyone has 'weakness', even assertive people. I don't think folks who don't speak up are necessarily lacking in mental fortitude, but rather that it is possible that their strengths are elsewhere- I truly think so- not as a "Okay everyone is special and strong!" lip service. One may have mental fortitude in speaking up, but they only do so because keeping quiet is more painful. I think that if one wants to think about these in terms of fear and pain, people fundamentally just are more naturally motivated to choose things that are less painful and less fear-inducing for themselves.

Well said.

 

[Coriolis]

Many people, especially those who suffer from shyness or excessive people-pleasing, will think "I wish I was more assertive".

Even people who've got average to high assertiveness think it's an absolute and ultimate value.

Here is my point of view :

Generally, it's the best not to show extremely low or high degrees of assertiveness, "extremely high" being the worst.

Basically because "assertiveness", I think, is "willingness to take risks".

And when you take a risk of a loss, you may be proud of yourself in the moment, but when the risk of loss becomes a certain loss, it HURTS. Period.

I knew countless "pushy" people who had been in relationship-related or social troubles, and who ended up lonely and withdrawn. Striving against shyness or excess of adaptation to people is fine. But seeking pushiness for itself may get you hurt in some way. Risks should be taken in a calculated and rational way, because emotionally-based risk-taking is usually a gamble. And gamblers know you might win sometimes, but on the long-term you lose all your money.

There are some lifestyles that do require being pushy (i.e. higher tolerance to risk), but even in those cases, risks should still be rationally measured, even approximately and/or quickly if appropriate. And in most cases these people should not imitated, and imitating their stereotypes is even worse.

The more you're aggressive the more you're likely to get incarcerated or face other kinds of penalties.

Do not be a fool.

Any time you approach others, it involves risk. You might be rebuffed, rejected, misunderstood, taken advantage of, or worse. Assertiveness is just one manner of interacting. NOT asserting yourself - not approaching - can also be a risk. You are risking not getting what you want by leaving the outcome to the actions of others, or to chance. You risk being misunderstood by leaving your wishes and viewpoint for the other person to assume.

Your comment above blurs the lines among assertiveness, pushy-ness, and agression. Are you equating pushy-ness with one or the other - or both, but in different degrees? I have always seen assertiveness as simply standing up for yourself and what you want, need, or believe in. This can be done with gentle firmness, or with more outspoken bluntness. It can be done in personal relationships, in social situations, in practical transactions, and professionally. Assertiveness is quite distinct from aggression. The latter focuses more on the other person and their response; the former focuses on yourself and your own expression. This is related to the idea that ultimately the only person whose behavior you can control is yourself.

If assertiveness is inherently pushy, that starts with pushing yourself, to speak up, to go after what you want rather than sit back and hope it falls into your lap. The degree to which you push someone else depends on the circumstances: what you are trying to get, how important it is, and how resistant the other person is. If anything, risk is associated with how high the stakes are, however you choose to approach the situation, including complete inaction.

I suppose the ideal situation is two people who are both assertive, each speaking their mind and hearing the other out, and working to reach some mutually beneficial outcome.

I've been told for years to be more assertive, and recognize it would have helped my career. Internally I'm okay with who I am and resent people assuming I need to change. I'd rather find a way to live in the world naturally and true to who I am without feeling forced to pretend like I'm someone else. I even had someone tell me to practice the physical mannerisms of successful people in front of a mirror.

If you are satisfied with how your life is progressing, others have no cause to pressure you to change what you are doing. If you are dissatisfied, it is worthwhile at least considering such advice, picking and choosing what you might be able to incorporate without compromising your own values and integrity.

This also seems to often be a "The grass is greener on the other side of the fence." deal. "Non-assertive" people wish to express themselves more freely, but I am like "Why?". Being assertive does nothing but open you up to criticism from the group, and makes you responsible for everything you say, even if you didn't intend it a specific way. Aka, you single yourself out. If you don't have the mental fortitude to go against the group, you will have a bad time.

We are all responsible for what we say, and what we do. We are responsible for our share of every interaction we have with others. Sometimes the other person has a problem in reception, but if it is important to us for our message to be understood, we must try different modes of transmission until we find one that will get through. Yes, expressing yourself can leave you open to criticism. Only you can decide whether it is better to field the criticism, or stay silent.

 

[Mole]

I've been attracted to assertive women all my life, and have spent time with some wonderful women.

So I understand how Harry feels about Meghan.

And although I have been attracted to assertive women, invariably I could see that underneath the assertiveness was a weak inner life. I made the mistake of thinking I could help make their inner life more satisfying and stronger, but really they didn't want that, and preferred to keep their assertiveness and avoid their inner life.

My attraction to assertive women was genuine, and I feel sad that I bounced off their assertiveness.

 

[Earl Grey]

I've been attracted to assertive women all my life, and have spent time with some wonderful women.

So I understand how Harry feels about Meghan.

And although I have been attracted to assertive women, invariably I could see that underneath the assertiveness was a weak inner life. I made the mistake of thinking I could help make their inner life more satisfying and stronger, but really they didn't want that, and preferred to keep their assertiveness and avoid their inner life.

My attraction to assertive women was genuine, and I feel sad that I bounced off their assertiveness.

So... Do you like their assertiveness, or what you think it implies about their inner life?

 

[Mole]

So... Do you like their assertiveness, or what you think it implies about their inner life?

Yes, I find assertiveness in women attractive. It may be because my mother was assertive.

I have found though that assertive women tend to dismiss their inner life, and to dismiss the inner life of others. They do this unconsciously and not maliciously, as a form of psychological defence. Unfortunately falling in love I tended to walk blindly into these defences. Just as Harry has walked blindly into Meghan's defences.

 

[Earl Grey]

Yes, I find assertiveness in women attractive. It may be because my mother was assertive.

I have found though that assertive women tend to dismiss their inner life, and to dismiss the inner life of others. They do this unconsciously and not maliciously, as a form of psychological defence. Unfortunately falling in love I tended to walk blindly into these defences. Just as Harry has walked blindly into Meghan's defences.

I don't always agree with the things you post, but I must say, I wished less assertive people did, too.

 

[Mole]

I don't always agree with the things you post, but I must say, I wished less assertive people did, too.

It is true, I consciously make assertions, and I consciously try not to manipulate others.

Many come here to manipulate and be manipulated, because they don't like themselves, and are hoping others will like them to fill the void.

The advantage of making assertions is that we discover who we are, and the downside of making assertions is that we take a risk with each assertion.

But the more assertions, the stronger we get.

 

[ceecee]

Oh, and my post above is why I'm very leery over people who spout left and right about being assertive and bending people to their will and getting their own way. They're a cheap walking caricature, usually, and once you pull the rug out from beneath them they just cry. It's fear-driven, and rather pathetic to watch. It's like a prey animal that decided to emulate the tiger, because it knows that it would be squished otherwise. It's broadcasted weakness.

If you only get 'assertive' because you fear losing something, or out of shame- might want to check your definition of assertive and what on earth you're doing.

There are a lot of these people. And they back down when challenged, almost without exception. I wish more people would understand that aggressive people should not be looked to as leaders because they aren't. They make poor decision and generally don't take anyone but themselves into account. And it's fear-driven, you are absolutely right. So are the people that look to them as leaders.

 

[Lia_kat]

There are a lot of these people. And they back down when challenged, almost without exception. I wish more people would understand that aggressive people should not be looked to as leaders because they aren't. They make poor decision and generally don't take anyone but themselves into account. And it's fear-driven, you are absolutely right. So are the people that look to them as leaders.

I agree. All the people I've met that have been considered "assertive" were actually just rude, loud, and obnoxious. No consideration for anyone else. And some people feel like they're walking on egg-shells around them. That's not leadership.

 

[Coriolis]

I agree. All the people I've met that have been considered "assertive" were actually just rude, loud, and obnoxious. No consideration for anyone else. And some people feel like they're walking on egg-shells around them. That's not leadership.

Now we are just getting into the differences between perception and reality, or spin vs. calling a spade a spade. The idea of leadership, mentioned above, is also distinct though not unrelated. We have different words for "assertive" and "aggressive" because they in fact mean different things, however much people may confuse the two, or want to excuse the latter as the former. I'm not sure I would say all aggression is fear-based. Many highly successful military leaders could be considered aggressive; also accomplished athletes. Sure - they might feel fear, but they act in spite of it, often in an extreme fashion, in order to reach their objective. Assertive people can easily be leaders, too, though they will have a different style, more example-based from what I have seen. This relates again to the notion of controlling themselves vs. controlling others. Other, more passive or fearful people see an assertive person and are inspired to take action themselves, especially when the example shows how they can stand up for something without crossing the line into aggression and betraying personal values like respect for others or desire for harmony.

 

[anticlimatic]

Now we are just getting into the differences between perception and reality, or spin vs. calling a spade a spade. The idea of leadership, mentioned above, is also distinct though not unrelated. We have different words for "assertive" and "aggressive" because they in fact mean different things, however much people may confuse the two, or want to excuse the latter as the former. I'm not sure I would say all aggression is fear-based. Many highly successful military leaders could be considered aggressive; also accomplished athletes. Sure - they might feel fear, but they act in spite of it, often in an extreme fashion, in order to reach their objective. Assertive people can easily be leaders, too, though they will have a different style, more example-based from what I have seen. This relates again to the notion of controlling themselves vs. controlling others. Other, more passive or fearful people see an assertive person and are inspired to take action themselves, especially when the example shows how they can stand up for something without crossing the line into aggression and betraying personal values like respect for others or desire for harmony.

It's very difficult to act within an arena you're afraid of. Even if you can manage the bravery to do so, it's like running under water, in a dream where you're being chased. Odds of effectiveness and success are low. The trick employed is to avoid those arenas, and combat- with full mental faculty- the possibility of confronting those arenas directly, from other proxy arenas that cause less fear. This is why narcissists like General Patton, whose greatest fear could have been simply losing or being bested by another, could bring his full intellect, grit, and perseverance to the arena of strategic combat to such great effect.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I don't envy the stereotypical assertive people. Especially since for me it all revolves around order and competency with ability to maintain it. Therefore I judge assertive people based on where they stand in that sphere. Since I am more focused on how much people are pushing what I see as factually/morally right direction instead of how much they are really pushing. Since if it is right direction the results should stack up pretty quickly over time.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

The first answer (to opening post) that came to mind is that I guess sometimes I envy people who balance conscientousness with self-possession - but when in its most impressive form, it doesn't incite jealousy so much as humbling respect. Carl Jung (supposedly) once said, "The kernel of jealousy is a lack of love." I've been the object of someone else's aggression due to their feelings of envy/jealousy enough for me to actually find that emotion menacing - both in myself and others. So I'm reluctant to label it envy. But seeing a healthy balance of conscientousness and self-possession - where a person has a strong sense of boundaries and a healthy sense of entitlement (their assertiveness isn't used to take resources that don't rightfully belong to them, and they have a very healthy and appropriate sense of what resources are theirs for the taking) - definitely makes me long to hone that balance in myself, to arrive at a balance that works better for me.

There are a lot of these people. And they back down when challenged, almost without exception. I wish more people would understand that aggressive people should not be looked to as leaders because they aren't. They make poor decision and generally don't take anyone but themselves into account. And it's fear-driven, you are absolutely right. So are the people that look to them as leaders.

It's bizarre how widely the human conception of strength can default to something psychopathic in nature. I agree fear is always at play in such dynamics.