[MBTI General] ENFPs pwn INTPs

[Grayscale]

7 = ^

 

[Kiddo]

Logic is not a system. It's not like a meat grinder or something.


What the hell... I'm not wrong.
You have suggested that it's physical. You can't misuse something that's abstract. If you are, then you're using something else. How can that be incorrect?

Well it seems we have come to an impasse. We can't very well debate what logic is if you are going to use your own personal definition.

I'll just conclude by saying that logic is a system, systems are abstract, and they are only as good as the people who use them. Even the most perfectly constructed, objective system would still be limited to the parameters of the experience of the person using it.

 

[Ivy]

Nocapszy: why do we say that someone is using "faulty logic" when they argue badly? If the only thing that qualifies as logic is perfectly applied logic, then there would be no such thing as crappy logic. I'm going with Kiddo here- logic misapplied is still logic. It's just... shitty. And any conclusions drawn from it can't be trusted on the basis of that logic alone.

 

[Nocapszy]

Well it seems we have come to an impasse. We can't very well debate what logic is if you are going to use your own personal definition.

I'll just conclude by saying that logic is a system, systems are abstract, and they are only as good as the people who use them. Even the most perfectly constructed, objective system would still be limited to the parameters of the experience of the person using it.

How is logic a system? Because the dictionary says so?

It's not a system. But you're obviously not going to get it. It's not a tool. It's an absolute. Think of it more like a puzzle.

If you build the right pieces, then they will fit into the cutout. Logic is the cutout. It's not a system. Finding what is logical, might be systematic, but logic is not, in itself, a system.

Can you prove otherwise? I dare you.

 

[Kiddo]

How is logic a system? Because the dictionary says so?

It's not a system. But you're obviously not going to get it. It's not a tool. It's an absolute. Think of it more like a puzzle.

If you build the right pieces, then they will fit into the cutout. Logic is the cutout. It's not a system. Finding what is logical, might be systematic, but logic is not, in itself, a system.

Can you prove otherwise? I dare you.

Yes, we all get it, you define logic as an absolute. Of course, the logic we were talking about is the one we use in the real world, not the idea you have constructed in your mind.

 

[Nocapszy]

Nocapszy: why do we say that someone is using "faulty logic" when they argue badly?

Because we're idiots. We misuse words all the time.

These are the same peolpe who say things like "very unique"

Obviously, if one thing is more unique than the other, then the first thing wasn't unique. Distinguishable, is not the same as unique.

If the only thing that qualifies as logic is perfectly applied logic, then there would be no such thing as crappy logic.

That's my point. It's a myth just like global warming.

 

[Ivy]

Because we're idiots. We misuse words all the time.

These are the same peolpe who say things like "very unique"

Obviously, if one thing is more unique than the other, then the first thing wasn't unique.

That's my point. It's a myth just like global warming.

You've got to be kidding me. Why is a major subset of the study of logic devoted to the logical fallacies, if they're not actually logic at all?

 

[Metamorphosis]

How is logic a system? Because the dictionary says so?

It's not a system. But you're obviously not going to get it. It's not a tool. It's an absolute. Think of it more like a puzzle.

If you build the right pieces, then they will fit into the cutout. Logic is the cutout. It's not a system. Finding what is logical, might be systematic, but logic is not, in itself, a system.

Can you prove otherwise? I dare you.

In the end, it's all about perception. The fact that both of your definitions are different doesn't conclusively make either one wrong. It's like arguing over the name of a color.

 

[SillySapienne]

In the end, it's all about perception. It's like arguing over the name of a color.

QFT

A certain color can be called frank, debbie or mark, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the color that it is.

 

[Athenian200]

ENFP are idealists, not rationals. ENFP's are one of the NF types. All NF's are Idealists, therefore ENFP's are Idealists. Idealists are not Rationals, therefore ENFP's are not Rationals.

Of course, that doesn't mean they can't use logic.

 

[Nocapszy]

You've got to be kidding me. Why is a major subset of the study of logic devoted to the logical fallacies, if they're not actually logic at all?

It wasn't logic. Logical fallacy is different from logic.

You can have a statement, which is logical, and then build off of that in following statement concluding something, that isn't logical. The study is where they go off the rails.

Maybe the end is wrong, but it all worked up until a certain point.

 

[SillySapienne]

ENFP are idealists, not rationals. ENFP's are one of the NF types. All NF's are Idealists, therefore ENFP's are Idealists. Idealists are not Rationals, therefore ENFP's are not Rationals.

Of course, that doesn't mean they can't use logic.

My being idealistic in nature, has to do with me having a positive and hopeful attitude in regards to people and their *potential*.

I can absolutely be both rational in my thoughts and idealistic in my hopes, thank you very much.

 

[Kiddo]

You didn't comply with my request. I'm going to assume it's because you can't.

You want me to disprove the idea you have made up in your head? I'll pass.

Since its different definitions we are dealing with, it's an issue of semantics, and would be pointless to argue about it further. We just aren't talking about the same thing.

 

[ygolo]

My being idealistic in nature, has to do with me having a positive and hopeful attitude in regards to people and their *potential*.

I can absolutely be both rational in my thoughts and idealistic in my hopes, thank you very much.

Athenian was making a joke (indicated with a wink ) I hope you were too.

Technically speaking, if you are classifed as an Idealist, then you are not classified as any of the others (i.e. Guardians, Artisan, or Rationals). Therefore you are not a "Rational."

It's along the lines of:
1) Nothing is better than Oreo Ice Cream.
2) Fried Liver is better than nothing.
Therefore:Fried Liver is better than Oreo Ice Cream.

It follows a "logical" pattern, but is infact illogical.

Well done Athenian. That is about as "Rational" a joke as I've seen here.

 

[SillySapienne]

x_x

 

[Athenian200]

My being idealistic in nature, has to do with me having a positive and hopeful attitude in regards to people and their *potential*.

I can absolutely be both rational in my thoughts and idealistic in my hopes, thank you very much.

Oh. Well, are you saying that you're an ENxP then? NF's are Idealists, NT's are Rationals. Which are you? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

For instance, I'm an INFJ, so I'm an Idealist, and not a Rational.

Are you saying that you're schizophrenic and have both an NT and NF personality at the same time??

Let me just list this out so you can see why I'm confused. This is what I thought was so:

Idealists (NF):

INFJ
ENFJ
INFP
ENFP

Rationals (NT):

INTJ
ENTJ
INTP
ENTP

But now you're saying it's like this:

Idealists (NF):

INFJ
ENFJ
INFP
ENFP

Rationals (NT):

ENFP
INTJ
ENTJ
INTP
ENTP


And that doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[The Ü™]

Idealism is seeing things the way you want to see them be. It is an N trait. Idealizing of people is NF, idealizing of systems is NT. They will both rationalize whatever their ideals are.

 

[nightning]

"CaptainChick is more rational than *most* of you"

I don't know who "most" is referring to... but I like being irrational... An irrational idealist using logical illogically to hold off the logics of these rational rationalists sounds good to me.

So CC... what's wrong with being an irrational idealist?

This thread amuses me a lot.

 

[SillySapienne]

My being idealistic in nature, has to do with me having a positive and hopeful attitude in regards to people and their *potential*.

I can absolutely be both rational in my thoughts and idealistic in my hopes, thank you very much.

Athenian and ygolo:

Where do you see "Idealist", or "Rationalist" mentioned in my statement?

 

[Zergling]

A bunch of posts moved here.