[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[Kalach]

You people are so negative.

Cleavage.




Oh. That doesn't make any sense sat next to my avatar.

 

[Kambro]

...
I bet there is one of you out there that's fantastic, but damn, I've just had a bad streak. ):

OK move over to Africa, Ct is beautiful

 

[garbage]

OK move over to Africa, Ct is beautiful

dibs

 

[Fecal McAngry]

There are some nice INTJs out there. My INTJ friend Lauren, for example, sent me Omaha Steaks for Christmas. Who wouldn't like a woman who expresses her affection by means of a shipment of frozen cow chunks?

Admittedly, I am not an ENFP. Maybe the dynamic is easier between introverts.

 

[the state i am in]

i feel threatened by enps, but growing up i did imagine that i would end up with an efp. the first entp girl i did meet shook me hard in less than 48 hrs. i could see the change from my pockets jingling on the pavement.

once i learned typology, i felt my disposition change to intuitive first, and probably dominant intuitive for ease and depth of communication. but i think i'm sort of evening out on this as well and recognizing a wider range of possibilities with each type.

i'm not sure if i hate it (and i do hate most of keirsey), but i think the mindmate, soulmate, and whatever else are pretty good designations (+ bodymate, and lifemate?). i always liked when the love languages write-ups were kicking around. there are obviously a lot of ways relationships can work, and be beneficial, promote growth, etc. timing is important, context, cultural history, psychological health, trials, etc. the whole jackpot mentality is frustrating and ultimately self-destructive.

i've also learned that ltr or not, s.o. type relationship or not, i fucking need enps in my life very very badly. i think juggling all factors, sx/sp/so, your values, your articulation of those values aesthetically, your vision of the world, your projects commitments investments and inspirations, your needs and desires and wildest fantasies, your sense of self and sense of purpose/place, your sense of where you've come from and where you want to go, your friends and family and your (current) lover and the love of your life and your spiritual ties and your forms of knowledge, all of this is an immensely complex problem that we're all trying to solve. it's an impossible riddle. it's what is ultimately at stake for us in our lives, but what may only be a side-effect text-book margin on the page of what context human life takes on in a more cosmic, the universe + the earth kind of way. each experiment called life reaches and strives for something somewhat undefined and difficult to describe, but perhaps the intelligence of the whole makes more sense, achieves more success, etc. a successful and elegant solution, when combined with others, adds up.

i don't know how to balance the fucking monstrosity of my life, that keeps teetering and tottering and threatening total fucking ecological collapse. worry worry. but i know enps are a huge part of that solution. i'm sure they always will be. i don't personally see how an inj could think otherwise. they help me see a better future when i am trapped in a bleak/black, violent, destructive past. it's pure inspiration.

 

[evilrobot]

All I’m gonna say is that ENFPs take a long time for any type to recover from. And INTJs, more than most, are simply not wired to handle them.

 

[the state i am in]

All I’m gonna say is that ENFPs take a long time for any type to recover from. And INTJs, more than most, are simply not wired to handle them.

this is the scary part.

what's weird is that i feel like i identify with both parties. i can easily imagine myself floundering as a spurned intj. totally fucking imploding from the inside. yet i am as fickle and unpredictable as an enfp. i do not know what i want or will want, or if my so-called wants are grounded in anything viable/sensible/feasible. i do not know what is best for me, tho i know what is best for others. therefore, i am crazy.

enps can be destructive night-terrors, and when entranced and when their desires are unbalanced i think they would destroy me. and how could a relationship not have these moments? and how would these moments not destroy me? and shouldn't these moments be free to occur, to test the limits, boundaries, truth of the situation? i don't know, but it would destroy me (so i say to myself).

on the other hand, enps are the most capable of empathizing with me as i really am. as a perfect blend of what i really am and what i really could be, ought to be, might be, etc.

i see laddered rings of the tree, spiraled where they fall. the tree keeps trying, growing, climb up, climb up. the distance is really a matter of perspective, and if there's still more to go.

 

[Thalassa]

yet i am as fickle and unpredictable as an enfp. i do not know what i want or will want, or if my so-called wants are grounded in anything viable/sensible/feasible...

enps can be destructive night-terrors, and when entranced and when their desires are unbalanced i think they would destroy me.
.

I don't think all ENFPs don't know what they want. We may have a more flexible attitude toward life plans, and can sometimes get lazy and sidetracked and ADD, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we don't know what we want.

Though you do say that ENPs can get "entranced" and "when their desires are unbalanced i think they would destroy me."

So what I'm getting here is that ENPs seem dangerous whether we're flexible or fixed?

I understand that young ENPs can be incredibly fickle, but I don't think that's true for all areas of life, especially as we grow up a little bit. I know from one previous experience that I have the ability to become extremely fixed and loyal within a relationship. I'm sure that's true of other ENPs as well.

I think all people can be terrible, no matter their type. There's a lot of fear in this thread from both sides. I think sometimes people are just frightened by intimate relationships in general.

 

[Amargith]

INTJ-ENFP rules (at least, if yo uconsider me an ENFP)

They're endeared and indulging of my crazy quirks as long as I involve them in it, take them on that journey, and I am in utter awe of their competence and intelligence. Though I have met INTJs where there was no instant click, I find it in general to be almost naturally there.

 

[the state i am in]

I don't think all ENFPs don't know what they want. We may have a more flexible attitude toward life plans, and can sometimes get lazy and sidetracked and ADD, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we don't know what we want.

Though you do say that ENPs can get "entranced" and "when their desires are unbalanced i think they would destroy me."

So what I'm getting here is that ENPs seem dangerous whether we're flexible or fixed?

I understand that young ENPs can be incredibly fickle, but I don't think that's true for all areas of life, especially as we grow up a little bit. I know from one previous experience that I have the ability to become extremely fixed and loyal within a relationship. I'm sure that's true of other ENPs as well.

I think all people can be terrible, no matter their type. There's a lot of fear in this thread from both sides. I think sometimes people are just frightened by intimate relationships in general.

i think some of it is just the outward appearance of the relationship. enps move on easier, entps especially. tho enfps may struggle very much on the inside, they don't seem to get that awful trapped chernobyl feeling as much as injs. we tend to think (however inaccurately) that it's much easier for us to see the worst, and stay with the worst, and live the worst, and become the worst. and personally, i feel like i have trouble with everything on the outside collapsing when my interior is seriously shaken. and my instinct is not to get help OR to power thru it, it's just to withdraw and retreat. i feel even less in control of the world around me, my immediate surroundings, etc, and am more pessimistic about them bc of this. we see too much all-at-once saying no (the filtration is too singularly focused), rather than taking it in one yes at a time.

enps seem dangerous to injs bc their cost analysis is so different than ours. we recognize the problems and focus on the costs of the past. they see the potential in the future. they see potential everywhere, but are generally less sensitive to the costs of all those infinite potentials bc they are not dwelling in them or spending nearly as much time trapped there, in the wreckage of the past, when their own interior space is terrorizing them and forcing them to retreat from the world that they cannot find solace in.

also it's a misread to say that i am saying that this perception of enps equates to "terrible enps." it's the insecurities, weaknesses, and vulnerabilities of many injs that are at stake. ESPECIALLY the 5w4s. they're often counterphobic and paranoid. my impression is that e5 loves e7 bc it is freeing, but it is dangerously free when see as the hysterics that are a deep unconscious stream running thru our own self-image, our own projections, lurking in the shadows of e5.

but again, it's just a different form of cost analysis that sounds scary. and we can easily feel in a disadvantaged position.

 

[evilrobot]

enps can be destructive night-terrors...
on the other hand, enps are the most capable of empathizing with me as i really am. as a perfect blend of what i really am and what i really could be, ought to be, might be, etc.

ENFPs, especially if they’re also 4s, can crack your emotional codes better than any other type. Almost right off the bat, you feel like you can tell them anything, all your secrets you’ve never told anyone else. It’s not something ENFPs even have to think about, it comes naturally, effortlessly; look what Vesper (a clear cut ENFP) did to James Bond (a hardcase ISTP) in Casino Royale; he was totally in her power by the end of that movie.

INTJs are especially vulnerable because ENFPs connect with and activate the INTJ’s tertiary Fi, which is like their Achilles heel; before he knows it, the INTJ "mastermind" is in her thrall. INTJs are vulnerable in the emotional realm; even for more emotionally aware 5w4 INTJs, it’s still alien terrain. A mysterious and fascinating moonlit world to explore from the armchair, to be sure. But it unravels them, causing them to lose their bearings, when they’re forced to experience it firsthand with someone who reigns supreme there.

Put simply, INTJs are out of their depth with ENFPs.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I'm afraid we might all complain all day about how opposite ENFPs and INTJs are. But ultimately there is a lot of shared ground; its just wired up to see the world in the opposite light thanks to flipped intuition.

Mutual pedagogues will always attract.

 

[Kalach]

ENFPs, especially if they’re also 4s, can crack your emotional codes better than any other type. Almost right off the bat, you feel like you can tell them anything, all your secrets you’ve never told anyone else. It’s not something ENFPs even have to think about, it comes naturally; look what Vesper (a clear cut ENFP) did to James Bond (a hardcase ISTP) in Casino Royale; he was totally in her power by the end of that movie.

INTJs are most vulnerable because ENFPs connect with and activate the INTJ’s tertiary Fi, which is like their Achilles heel, and before he knows it, the INTJ is in her thrall. So much for being a “mastermind”. INTJs are too vulnerable in the emotional realm; even for more emotionally aware and expressive 5w4s, it’s still alien terrain, a place that fascinates them from the armchair but unravels them, causing them to lose their bearings, when they’re forced to experience it firsthand with someone who's right at home there.

Put simply, INTJs are out of their depth with ENFPs.

I agree, but I think it's half the story. If you go totally over to their side, F and nothing but the F, then you're screwed, or in a position to be screwed when they get bored or frightened or careless. But... presumably this is part of the maturation... like what State was saying a post or two back... an opportunity to expand who you are. Being led into a place where you have to abandon your T, that's bad. Real bad. But being able to bring your T to bear on what your F is up to...


Yes, fraught with peril, it is. Fraught. With Peril.


Warm and fuzzy is... memorable... and fleeting. It's value rises and falls.

 

[evilrobot]

I agree, but I think it's half the story. If you go totally over to their side, F and nothing but the F, then you're screwed, or in a position to be screwed when they get bored or frightened or careless. But... presumably this is part of the maturation... like what State was saying a post or two back... an opportunity to expand who you are. Being led into a place where you have to abandon your T, that's bad. Real bad. But being able to bring your T to bear on what your F is up to...


Yes, fraught with peril, it is. Fraught. With Peril.


Warm and fuzzy is... memorable... and fleeting. It's value rises and falls.

Okay, let me rephrase it. The ENFP match (at least from the male INTJ perspective) has the greatest potential for the INTJ, but is also the greatest risk.

 

[CzeCze]

I went on a date with an INTJ (one date) and there is another INTJ amongst our group of friends. I would say my ISTJ and INFJ and ESFP friends are much harsher about the INTJ (they thinks she is awkward, rude, etc.) but I don't have any problems with her and have been invited to her house a couple times. At my last corporate job, an INTX male was the only person I could stand working with on the research team (his ENTP boss - we did *not* see eye to eye)

How old are you? Maybe most of the folks you're meeting, and including yourself, are growing into all your functions and that's why you're feeling friction.

In general, I have no problems with INTJs. The only type I would say I tend to dislike or butt heads with consistently irl are ENTPs, but even with that the cross section has been sooooooooo tiny I couldn't say.

 

[sculpting]

Yes, fraught with peril, it is. Fraught. With Peril.


Warm and fuzzy is... memorable... and fleeting. It's value rises and falls.

Which is why you complement it with mutual Te commitment and intellectual interaction. Dont be a quitter! ENFPs are flighty and absent minded, but you just need to bluntly remind them you are there and we will hold onto you as our foundation and drag you out into the world-just a bit.

It will only hurt a little.

 

[Waffle]

I went on a date with an INTJ (one date) and there is another INTJ amongst our group of friends. I would say my ISTJ and INFJ and ESFP friends are much harsher about the INTJ (they thinks she is awkward, rude, etc.) but I don't have any problems with her and have been invited to her house a couple times. At my last corporate job, an INTX male was the only person I could stand working with on the research team (his ENTP boss - we did *not* see eye to eye)

How old are you? Maybe most of the folks you're meeting, and including yourself, are growing into all your functions and that's why you're feeling friction.

In general, I have no problems with INTJs. The only type I would say I tend to dislike or butt heads with consistently irl are ENTPs, but even with that the cross section has been sooooooooo tiny I couldn't say.

I see everyone's possible reasons. It's probably the INTJs I've met have either been immature in their own ways or decided off the bat not to like me. Either way, meh.
ENTPs... Well, my mother. We drive each other nuts, and often don't work well at all together. Same with my ENTP friend and I. They're very very stuck on their principles, and have almost no room for compromise.
It has helped me grow up faster though, and learn that I will *almost* never get my way.
I do however admire the ENTP's principole to take them as they are or hit the highway. i do way more bending than I should.
I will admit that the INTJ can hold intellectual conversations with a lot more focus and actual interest about the subject.

 

[Kalach]

Which is why you complement it with mutual Te commitment and intellectual interaction. Dont be a quitter! ENFPs are flighty and absent minded, but you just need to bluntly remind them you are there and we will hold onto you as our foundation and drag you out into the world-just a bit.

It will only hurt a little.

And the other side of the coin... well, there is another side of the coin, but I've been not finding ways to express it for two days now. Something about INTJs being hypersensitive to hints and clues of rejection and childishly (childlikely?) willing to pick up their armor and go home, calling the whole thing off. That tertiary temptation trick of "This will mar my soul!" tends to drive up the introverted feeling stakes.

"Like a Band-Aid, right off! *zzzzzzitch*"

It only hurts the once.




And in other news, Vesper Lynd was ENFJ. You can tell by the way irony requires her to sabotage a mission when she would have anyway. And the eye makeup. "Look into my pained eyes and see the yearning depths of your soul."

 

[boondocked]

ENFPs, especially if they’re also 4s, can crack your emotional codes better than any other type. Almost right off the bat, you feel like you can tell them anything, all your secrets you’ve never told anyone else. It’s not something ENFPs even have to think about, it comes naturally, effortlessly.

This. Sometimes I feel like a repository for secrets. I've got secrets from people I've known for minutes, secrets from people who swore they'd never tell a living soul, secrets from both sides of a fight I was caught between...etc. If I had a cupcake for every person who's given me a sheepish smile and said "I have no idea why I'm telling you this, but..." I'd be a very happy 300 lb. woman.

Also, I'd love to know why you, evilrobot, consider Vesper an ENFP. Very interesting typing! I'd love to call her one of our own...

To answer the OP, I bring my 5 years experience dating an INTJ. We didn't work out because I simply needed to date around some more and experience adult life without him. Stand on my own two feet or something.

Up until that point, we worked out marvelously well. If I had only met him later in life, after I'd ironed out all my restlessness...

What worked:

-Unlike the INTJ you mention (the rude git!), this INTJ was unfailingly polite and thoughtful. This was less a personality trait, and more an aspect of his good character. People from his family, from his hometown, from his soccer team were always coming up to me to tell me what a great guy he was. Loved this.

-The connection was instant and superb. The night we met (Valentines Day), I had two dates set up, which scared him off initially, but we soon got together for dinner and talked all night. And talked all night the next night. We slept the night after that, but talked all night for the next two. Like I said, instant connection. I loved his brilliant, idiosyncratic brain, the fascinating bends and turns of it. I loved how precise it was, whereas my brain is so wishy washy and impressionistic. And he made me laugh harder than anyone ever had. He was just so bright, so sharp. He liked my abstractions and theories and how I expressed myself, from the way I phrased things to my over-emotive facial expressions :rolli: We both just found the whole thing unbelievably exciting

-We were great partners. For instance, I'm a better writer than he, so I wrote his law school entrance essay. He's a MUCH better organizer and go-getter than me, so he helped me in the job search. We acted as each other's sounding board perpetually. He understood all the important things, without me having to explain. If there was something wrong with what I was working on, he'd instantly mention it and he'd almost always be right.

-His passion for self-improvement rubbed off on me. That and a huuuuge respect for music (the guy was in a band).

-When I moved to Thailand, he was the most devoted boyfriend imaginable, calling and mailing birthday/Christmas gifts. The greatest thing about an INTJ in love is that he's decided on you. He wouldn't love you if he hadn't decided that you're the one he wants. Once that decision is made, it's damn near irrevocable.

-He was so motivated. I mean, gawd, the FORCE of that man's willpower.

What Didn't Work

-Sometimes, even as a high N, you just want some S flavor in your life. You get tired of living on cloud. You want someone with more of a physical presence. I don't know. Someone good with their hands.

-I got too much of my own way, and became bratty. Maybe that's not ENFP/INTJ-related? My INTJ wanted me to be in every respect happy and free from any rules that he had any power over. Wasn't the best thing for us.

-When he'd get into his work-horse mode, NOTHING could snap him out of it. I mean, during such times I could have covered myself in whipped cream and he would just have told me to stop playing with my food. He was infuriating cold when he was hot on some brain trail.

Verdict

Can TOTALLY work. It's a fascinating combo.

 

[Kalach]

^ I wonder if this is not the merciless inferior.

The total connection comes when both partners are up-ended. They've worked their way down through the functions, the IXTJ engaging Fi, the EXFP engaging Te, and then what? The inferior. If it were INTJ, he'd activate Se; but if it were ISTJ, he'd activate Ne, and speak directly to the ENFP's dominant function, and the connection is complete... for when the ISTJ takes the role of the Ne user, the ENFP can take the role of the Si user. The whole person is engaged. The meaning (found in Ne) of all that has been done (found in Si) is shared.

Whereas the INTJ would say, let's go dancing.