ENFP / ENTP Superficiality

[Ghost of the dead horse]

That's a bunch of comments that don't pertain to any issue at all. It's all about the "style" of arguments - wrong people arguing, people arguing an "unlikeable" point, etc.. So we've now got that you hate the idea Gabe. Is there anything in the means of arguments you would do to convince us otherwise?

We haven't hated you nor trashed your type down. You don't have to act as if it were. Blackwater hasn't challenged you to a fight here, and his comments have done nothing to persuade me think anything less of ENFP's than I've thought so far (and ENFP, is per latest test, the type I'm romantically inclined to).

It's also clear that you don't like this for whatever reason. You must know (per type theory) that we're not that much affected by dramatic arguments with style over substance - we're rather analytical.

It's ok that you let everything out. Could you move on to convincing us please? None of us here has impossible standards for convincing arguments. If you just start, maybe we'll eventually get convinced of your views.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

I don't think that ENxP's are superficial. Perhaps it is only my experience. I have been called many things in my life, but superficial is not one of them.

 

[Athenian200]

Ok, so ENTPs are usually accused of being somewhat superficial and haphazard in their speculations and opinions. I can understand that.

But what I can't understand is why these charges are only rarely leveled at our ENFP siblings. I know quite a few ENFPs IRL and almost all of them have this tendency to splatter inconsistant and superficial points about them yet, in the case of ENFP, people are more like "oh they're just being silly" or even from an MBTI textbook I once read: "When ENFPs try to verbalize their insights the result often comes out cluttered and imprecise".

So basically, isn't this the same behavior from ENFPs as you've seen from ENTPs only with a different motive? Why then, should there be another discourse for dealing with ENFPs?

Personally, I think they're (both) just haphazard in throwing out opinions and speculations as they come. I would guess they're much less haphazard in ideas they've already defined and worked through. It's just that they process things externally first.

But I guess it's considered less superficial because ENFP's are using Fi secondary, and ENTP's are using Fe tertiary. People are more likely to consider Fe superficial, especially when it's weaker (although I don't think it's true). Also, ENFP's don't usually try to approach topics seriously enough to be accused of being superficial because there's no threat of people taking most of their ideas seriously, and they often manage to cheer people up, so people don't really want to criticize them for that.

 

[CzeCze]

Maybe so, CzeCze, but I don't get it. You're basically saying that because another thread with a different premise that I did not even read was not to your taste I shouldn't post my inquiry now?

No...I was joking and even then I was not implying you shouldn't have posted. Does noone get my dry and high-brow if I do say so myself, humor?

I meant that other thread, ostensibly about determining the 'Most Objective Type' and which I redubbed the "NT Smackdown" reminded me of your OP. Answering the age old question, Who's The [insert superlative] of MBTI?

Except in that thread, the NTs and a valiant ST were duking it out amongst themselves to determine the title (though not necessarily for themselves, because that wouldn't be very objective now would it?), whereas I think this one is not gonna have any enthusiastic takers. And that thread did greatly amuse me for that reason.

Speaking of this thread:

I understand a little better from the responses what is meant by 'superficial'. I guess having a lot of interests or cycling through many hobbies or topics of conversation can seem "superficial" to others (like an ISTJ!) As in light? With bad connotations? I think Substitute has complained on another thread that more introverted or just shy types dismiss 'chit chat' as mindless or 'stupid' instead of a valid social mechanism. So perhaps it's a matter of POV of what is 'necessary' and what is 'unecessary' etc.

But I still don't understand the 'most superficial' title.

When I think superficial, I think of what your values are. As in valuing appearances and the trapping of life like popularity and posh surroundings above things considered 'substance' i.e. love, meaningful relationships, character building tribulations, etc.

And I think trad type theory acknowledges that ENTPs think deeply about their plans and why the world works? Wheras ENFPs feel deeply committed to causes or beliefs ("plans") and feel a cosmic pull to the world?

I think another reason why ENFP is not quoted as most superficial is because we're typed as being the opposite of superficial in that we have the 'crusader streak' (which is similarly found in our INFP brethren) and apparently look at everything in terms of good and evil and the world through the lens of our cosmic view. Now that's deep.

Also, we're the cheerleaders of the MBTI! And we all know cheerleaders aren't superficial.

And Gabe and Captain, I didn't read this OP as being bashing or ENFP bashing at that just because it was 1) directed at ENTPs (which I don't mind, it's nice to see some variety!) and 2) this is nothin' compared to the actual character assassinating hard-core (and dareisay at times bitter) posts I've seen since coming here!

Now carry on.

 

[substitute]

Oh, one other thing I learn from arguing with my brother is that when an ENTP and an ENFP argue, neither of them will ever see the other's point of view entirely. It's a lost cause. Something keeps getting lost in the translation, as though there were some naughty pixie standing between us that twists our words somewhere en route from our mouths to the other person's ears. No other outcome is possible, apparently, than the ENTP walking away thinking the ENFP is an unreasonable and hysterical person, and the ENFP thinking the ENTP is mean and cruel and arrogant. In actual fact, none of these judgements is correct, most of the time.

We're better off teaming up our formidable persuasion skills to use on others, than trying to persuade each other of anything.

 

[Gabe]

That's a bunch of comments that don't pertain to any issue at all. It's all about the "style" of arguments - wrong people arguing, people arguing an "unlikeable" point, etc.. So we've now got that you hate the idea Gabe. Is there anything in the means of arguments you would do to convince us otherwise?

We haven't hated you nor trashed your type down. You don't have to act as if it were. Blackwater hasn't challenged you to a fight here, and his comments have done nothing to persuade me think anything less of ENFP's than I've thought so far (and ENFP, is per latest test, the type I'm romantically inclined to).

It's also clear that you don't like this for whatever reason. You must know (per type theory) that we're not that much affected by dramatic arguments with style over substance - we're rather analytical.

It's ok that you let everything out. Could you move on to convincing us please? None of us here has impossible standards for convincing arguments. If you just start, maybe we'll eventually get convinced of your views.

I suggest that you stop pretending like you have to filter my words an put all of them in a context of 'feeling language'.

Let me start again. Blackwater believes that both extraverted intuition types can be superficial superficial, yet he believes that ENTPs get punished and ENFPs get away with it. Which is why I hate this thread already, because this means it's about bias (no matter what you preferences are).

I also don't experience this. However, I do remember a thread titled "ENFX hypocracy", where blackwater had a nice unfair and unfounded chance to bitch about ENFPs. There. problem solved.

Also, I forgot to ask, but what do you mean by superficiality, Blackwater. I'm not even sure superficial is the exact right word. Incoherent speech isn't superficial. Interest in everything isn't superficial. When you mention the Jung qoute, you must draw up the most superficial people you've ever met or something. And if your 'superficial' is the same as the 'hypocritical' you talked about earlier, than you're wrong, and you're not even talking about type. So, what about these ENFP's you know is so superficial?

 

[Athenian200]

It's a pity so many threads have to degenerate into arguments like this against the person's motives instead of having real discussions and talking about the presented information. This has happened countless times, a thread is started and people start questioning the motives of the person starting it instead of actually responding to what was said.

I really wish you would all just stop arguing on this level and try to discuss the topic rather than each other, okay?

 

[Nadir]

It's a pity so many threads have to degenerate into arguments like this against the person's motives instead of having real discussions and talking about the presented information. This has happened countless times, a thread is started and people start questioning the motives of the person starting it instead of actually responding to what was said.

I really wish you would all just stop arguing on this level and try to discuss the topic rather than each other, okay?

But I thought they were illustrating the concept with a live example!

 

[substitute]

athenian and Nadir: here, here!

Gabe - I don't think he was saying he "believes" ENFP's get away with it and ENTP's don't, I think he was more trying to say that it's his perception that this tends to be the case, and he's asking for input to help him figure out whether this is true or not. C'mon man, surely you know it's a sorta fundamental Ne thing to not start out with a theory, but to start out with a hunch that you want to scrutinize and turn into a theory with the help of outside input. EP types in my experience very rarely actually believe that their perceptions = reality. I can understand you getting the wrong end of the stick but it really does look to me as though you're fighting against a non-existant attack/enemy... the guy is asking for other people's perceptions on the subject, not pontificating with pre-existing opinions

At least, that's what I get from it - am I right Blackwater?

Your reaction does kinda remind me of my brother though; he tends to spit feathers a bit, too, much to my bewilderment... I wish he'd just calm down and tell me clearly and specifically what he thinks I said so that we can clear up the misunderstanding (and it almost always is just a misunderstanding - we nearly always discover EVENTUALLY that we're batting for the same team all along!!), rather than sit there covering us both in feathers! Not that it does much good a lot of the time anyway, because when I try to explain that he got the wrong meaning, he just seems to spit even more feathers and say I'm lying to 'get out of it' or accusing him of lying when I'm just saying that he's mistaken (then of course, I'm saying he's stupid, IHO ), and stuff that amounts to "I know what you think and mean better than you do" ... which hardly helps his case...

 

[substitute]

Having said all of that first paragraph there, I've just realized that all that stuff about the OP is stuff I pretty much extrapolated intuitively... haha... there's actually just as much evidence there that Gabe could be right as there is that I could be. Maybe I just recognized the workings there and went straight to the heart of what he was wondering about when he phrased the question... or maybe my intuition is having an off-day and I was actually wrong!

Never mind, carry on!!

 

[The Ü™]

The way I can imagine ENTPs as superficial is their tendency to make jokes and witticisms about everything. Some people, particularly xSFJs, tend to see them as shallow and unemotional. But I hardly see that as a bad thing...

To sum it all up, N's think S's are shallow, S's think N's are shallow. They're both shallow in different ways.

 

[targobelle]

A little late to this party I must admit, but being an enfp who is married to an entp I felt that I could have some limited insight to the topic. BTW Subbie I agree 100% with the idea that an enfp and an entp seem to NEVER be able to get the others point of view. And ironically enough they are so similar yet approached from a different view, one Ti and one Fi. At least that is how I have seen it to be



I have some thoughts that come from a different angle or point of view here as I look at the idea of being superficial. And one thing I need to say is that it really depends on the individual and their life experiences. I believe that the entp is way more sensitive than they let on to be, I believe that they mask and hide a lot behind that playful spontaneous persona, as do enfps. Yet the difference comes in with the 'F' factor, it is I suppose easier to see an enfp's emotion and therefore chalk their views up to emotions. As the emotions of an enfp are hard to pin down and understand.


I also think that the idea and the role of coming off as superficial is like a security blanket. The desire in these two types to be well liked and loved and please others is very strong, yet it leads to a lot of hurt as others can and do take advantage of it. So I believe that a way to protect themselves is to never really let anyone in, is to never really share who you are there is the constant Ne being pushed yet the real entp or enfp lies in the Ti/Fi personality trait. If you as an individual can over look the idea of them being superficial or acting superficial and stand the test of time you will begin to see who they really are, and I think you would probably be more shocked at who an entp really is as opposed to who an enfp really is.




Just some of my thoughts as I walk through a time in my life of personal growth and discovery.

 

[Varelse]

Targs.

Part of it could be...I'd expect an ENFP to be hurt more easily by any criticism I'd give. Which then just makes things worse....

 

[targobelle]

yes varelse that is true too!

Have you ever had a heated discussion with an entp? They are set to win, set to make all be persuaded to their point of view, they are strong willed and strong minded.

 

[substitute]

yes varelse that is true too!

Have you ever had a heated discussion with an entp? They are set to win, set to make all be persuaded to their point of view, they are strong willed and strong minded.

Targo, you just described my brother as well! lol I admit that I have been that way too, and have had to work hard on myself to try to restrain that side of me and still only succeed about 40% of the time, but he does it JUST as bad as I ever did, and what's more he has no intention of changing it because he believes he's completely justified.

I think perhaps what Varelse said about expecting an ENFP to be more hurt by criticism rings somewhat true... I might also (controversially and really asking for it, I know!) add that this could lead to the ENTP being more likely to correct this fault, being made more aware of it by others' reactions and criticisms, whilst ENFP is more likely to carry on, oblivious to it or believing it's okay, because people are less willing to lay into them about it... putting any criticisms that do come in down to people "being mean" or "having it in for them" (see above... ha...) rather than considering any validity in the words.

In my brother's defence, he does consider the things people say and mull it over later on when he's on his own, and sometimes he does admit he's wrong. But he very rarely apologizes - his version of an apology is to just swan up like nothing happened and expect everyone to forget all about it and never mention it again (if you do, then you're "holding grudges"). He never actually publicly admits to any fault in himself, whilst I know I do and can produce witnesses!

I don't mean to sound as though I measure all ENFP's by my brother - I know that he's not a particularly healthy example (though I love him dearly! ), though I've seen worse. And I'm not the best example of how ENTP's handle this kinda thing because I've had the last few years of pretty strict external discipline forcing me to restrain and meditate on these faults in myself and so have been working on them perhaps harder and faster than many other ENTP's might - certainly more than I would've of my own volition, without that external force.

But I've only mentioned the issues with my brother where they chime in with what I've read about ENFP's when they're not at their best (as I have read up a lot, in an effort to sort things out with him!!), and where they also tally with other experience I've had with other ENFP's. Granted I've only known three people in my life that I can confidently type as ENFP, but I doubt members here can say truthfully that they've met that many ENTP's either; we are rare, comparatively.

Going back to the part in your post that I bolded above, I have to say that yes, I have known ENFP's to have exactly that mindset as well, but they tend to be more covert about it - perhaps in denial about it to themselves, even. It's harder to detect it in ENFP's because whilst the ENTP is fairly obvious and up front about "this is my point and I'm right, just admit it", the ENFP's "point" isn't always an intellectual or verbal one, but a more subtle, personal one, that might not be easily recognized as a point at all, amongst all the empathy and stuff.

It can often be more a case of wanting desperately the gratification that comes from someone saying "Yes, you're right!" and taking their advice and stuff, I know my brother gets carried away with a train of thought, a series of events he expects to happen: they'll agree with me - they'll do what I suggest - everything will be wonderful - they'll thank me and I'll be able to bask in the glory! But then sometimes it falls down because he gets too wrapped up in that plan and anticipating the wonderful events to come, to be able to focus on what that person really wants and what's realistic and feasible for them where they're at right now.

 

[targobelle]

Targo, you just described my brother as well! lol I admit that I have been that way too, and have had to work hard on myself to try to restrain that side of me and still only succeed about 40% of the time, but he does it JUST as bad as I ever did, and what's more he has no intention of changing it because he believes he's completely justified.



**********************************************************


Going back to the part in your post that I bolded above, I have to say that yes, I have known ENFP's to have exactly that mindset as well, but they tend to be more covert about it - perhaps in denial about it to themselves, even. It's harder to detect it in ENFP's because whilst the ENTP is fairly obvious and up front about "this is my point and I'm right, just admit it", the ENFP's "point" isn't always an intellectual or verbal one, but a more subtle, personal one, that might not be easily recognized as a point at all, amongst all the empathy and stuff.

2 excerpts that I found particularly interesting from you.


I am so the complete opposite of that I roll over and play dead and concede EVERY time, never am I consistent except to say that i will always stop first and I will always let you (which ever opponent) railroad yourself over me. I will always admit to be wrong, even if I am not and I will always apologize, I will as a matter of fact do anything to return peace even at my expense. It's not healthy I know, but it's what I do to fit in and deal with life. *sigh*


as for the bolded part *ding ding ding* we have a winner here! that is so me. In my mind and in my heart I have the passion for what I am trying to say and if you could just please see me you would understand what I am trying to argue but I can't put words to the emotions and I can't make you hear or see what i am trying to say. I then feel like a failure and back away from it all and go into hiding. *sigh* I am problematic at the other end of the spectrum I suppose *sigh*

 

[substitute]

Just goes to show how much variation there is between people in the same type, huh?

Maybe it has something to do with expectations socially on males being different to females. In my thread about T women and F men, I wanted to explore that sort of thing, how it might cause the same temperament characteristics to manifest in different ways, so that perhaps my brother reacts more kinda defensively against himself. As a man, he knows he's expected to be certain, sure, confident, bold and assertive, but perhaps as an Fi type he knows that really he's quite sensitive and even insecure. It could be that social conditioning has caused him to feel embarrassed about his own tendencies, whilst maybe a female might be more willing to embrace them or simply own up to them. I don't know, this is pure speculation, but it'd be fascinating to thrash it out and see what others might make of the concept.

I think this might also be one reason why female ENTP's don't seem perhaps as "superficial" as male ones, because they could feel more comfortable with balancing things with a bit of feeling, whilst men might worry that doing so makes them weak. A female ENTP would possibly be more willing to show the passion behind the "superficial" joking and casual theorizing, whilst at least in British culture that's just not really cricket for a man to do. So you're right - there is an element of hiding something more complex and deep behind the jester facade.

 

[Gabe]

It's so funny how I can even have a different idea of superficial than other people. For instance I consider argueing for the sake of 'winning' to be extremely superficial.

 

[substitute]

Hm, but I wouldn't say that it's purely for the sake of winning, when I feel the need to win - it's because I genuinely believe in what I'm arguing and feel totally sure that if the other person just climbs the stairs (from my earlier post, the Lego staircase lol) then they'll SEE when they get to the top, something that I simply can't explain to them in the sorta ISTJ styleee stages kinda presentation style. It's not because I'm being superficial - it's because I'm not superficial and have thought about it a great deal and know what I'm talking about and believe in it so strongly, that it's so important to me that the other person sees it. The winning isn't what's important to me - it's what I hope to be the result of winning: their enlightenment.

It's not superficiality, but arrogance I guess, that makes me so sure that when they do see it, they'll have no choice but to agree

(edit - in my defence, they usually do )

 

[Gabe]

Targo, you just described my brother as well! lol I admit that I have been that way too, and have had to work hard on myself to try to restrain that side of me and still only succeed about 40% of the time, but he does it JUST as bad as I ever did, and what's more he has no intention of changing it because he believes he's completely justified.

I think perhaps what Varelse said about expecting an ENFP to be more hurt by criticism rings somewhat true... I might also (controversially and really asking for it, I know!) add that this could lead to the ENTP being more likely to correct this fault, being made more aware of it by others' reactions and criticisms, whilst ENFP is more likely to carry on, oblivious to it or believing it's okay, because people are less willing to lay into them about it... putting any criticisms that do come in down to people "being mean" or "having it in for them" (see above... ha...) rather than considering any validity in the words.

In my brother's defence, he does consider the things people say and mull it over later on when he's on his own, and sometimes he does admit he's wrong. But he very rarely apologizes - his version of an apology is to just swan up like nothing happened and expect everyone to forget all about it and never mention it again (if you do, then you're "holding grudges"). He never actually publicly admits to any fault in himself, whilst I know I do and can produce witnesses!

I don't mean to sound as though I measure all ENFP's by my brother - I know that he's not a particularly healthy example (though I love him dearly! ), though I've seen worse. And I'm not the best example of how ENTP's handle this kinda thing because I've had the last few years of pretty strict external discipline forcing me to restrain and meditate on these faults in myself and so have been working on them perhaps harder and faster than many other ENTP's might - certainly more than I would've of my own volition, without that external force.

But I've only mentioned the issues with my brother where they chime in with what I've read about ENFP's when they're not at their best (as I have read up a lot, in an effort to sort things out with him!!), and where they also tally with other experience I've had with other ENFP's. Granted I've only known three people in my life that I can confidently type as ENFP, but I doubt members here can say truthfully that they've met that many ENTP's either; we are rare, comparatively.

Going back to the part in your post that I bolded above, I have to say that yes, I have known ENFP's to have exactly that mindset as well, but they tend to be more covert about it - perhaps in denial about it to themselves, even. It's harder to detect it in ENFP's because whilst the ENTP is fairly obvious and up front about "this is my point and I'm right, just admit it", the ENFP's "point" isn't always an intellectual or verbal one, but a more subtle, personal one, that might not be easily recognized as a point at all, amongst all the empathy and stuff.

It can often be more a case of wanting desperately the gratification that comes from someone saying "Yes, you're right!" and taking their advice and stuff, I know my brother gets carried away with a train of thought, a series of events he expects to happen: they'll agree with me - they'll do what I suggest - everything will be wonderful - they'll thank me and I'll be able to bask in the glory! But then sometimes it falls down because he gets too wrapped up in that plan and anticipating the wonderful events to come, to be able to focus on what that person really wants and what's realistic and feasible for them where they're at right now.

So what's 'the fault' again. I think it was being 'haphazard' or something, or something. Of course, I don't even consider what the OP mentioned to even be a sin.
Now, this is NOT an attack, but I should mention that I don't have a good reason to believe that you are right and your brother is wrong. I also have any good reason to 'reasonably doubt' your brother's type. Also, a bandwagon (people 'chiming in') is never a reason to believe you're right, which is another reason that I'm always extremely suspicious of conclusions drawn about type from these threads. You're the realistic, sensible, ENTP, and your brother is just the loony, overemoting ENFP.
By the way, as much as this thing gets drawn up, I take criticism just like you do. I listen, then decide if it's at all justified or not. Frankly, I'm sick of hearing about this 'F' factor, because I think people percieve it as something wildly different from how feeling actually behaves.

So I have this friend, and he's this really shallow ENTP.....
the reason why I don't tell those stories is because it's not about type anymore, it's just about bias.