[Type 9] Eights, What's Your Take On This?

[kyuuei]

It almost sounds like Zen samurai-mentalities.. Maybe Type 8s can become more healthy through the art of the samurai.

But really.. There's nothing wrong with those qualities, and looking to them. There's a balance with everything. Puppy mentioned 8's having to notice that what drives them is also what can destroy them.. this is absolutely true. It's almost like having an absolute power.. At the risk of sounding like I'm in a movie or something, I don't think type 8s are totally healthy when they indulge into their type completely. Finding any description of a "great leader" from others will give you the type 8s at their best. Uncorrupt, ideal, just, kind, honorable and respectful leaders can give off an innocent, yet courageous vibe that can make others go "Ugh.. what a chump." But really, these ideals are what keep us tamed. We want to lead, in some shape or form. Finding good leadership strategies, and using them with everything we do in life, helps keep us at peace.

Like I said before.. my thought was that these just sound SO impossible and comic-book-like, that striving for them would almost set us up for failure. Type 8s are probably WAY more often average-health than they are healthy.. It's a daunting task to say "You'll be healthy when you're a perfect leader or have the qualities of superman." The description is an ideal shot for from way afar.. but I think it ought to be more down to earth and attainable. No one will be able to completely agree to or be compatible with a majority of the description without being self-absorbed and delusional to an extent. We'll always fall way short of that post.

As far as this "Fe" debate on those bolded texts.. The description is assuming that the 8 wants to serve others and be a part of society.. but it's saying that, I feel, because type 8s DO have a desire to leave their mark on people or their environment in some way, shape, or form. It's difficult to find a type 8 that wants to be reclusive from society because of that. They don't want to be harmed or controled, they want to be the one pulling the strings. It's a lot of potential responsibility.. not being drilled into whats best for society is like asking someone selfish to take command of an area. It IS assuming whats right or wrong for society.. but As type 8s, we need to acknowledge that we need that. We always know what's best for us, or so we think.. so we need to invest more time into what's good for others and how our actions impact them.

 

[rav3n]

At the level of integration, it's not about becoming a 2, but learning how certain traits of the 2 can become part of the 8. They are not blindly subsumed, but used to flesh out the natural strengths of the 8 in order to create balance and dimension to their personalities. They are integrated.

Here's what I'm wondering. 8s value independence through skilled use of personal effort. 8s are self reliant, and respect other people who are the same. Do 8s feel that to be level 1, they have to give that up? Do 8s believe that level 1 directly contradicts what an 8 is supposed to be about?

Because that's not how I'm reading the Enneagram description at all, but perhaps I'm the one misreading it.

You're not paying any attention to what I've previously written about moving towards a two. The integration is one that I personally refuse to make since it means embracing Fe beliefs which I fully reject as what's considered emotionally healthy for an 8, by Riso and Hudson. Heroes and martyrs are about as far from being emotionally healthy as you can get.

I like those emotional health levels. You can take it with a grain of salt - a general framework in a sense from really unhealthy to really healthy.

What I'd like to know is why the Level 1 language bothers you so much. I've tried to glean it from your postings here but haven't really been able to discern an answer to that question.

Breaking it down:

Level 1 (At Their Best):

Become self-restrained - assumes that 8s require self-restraint. Not everyone will be nutbar 8. Some of us do have control over ourselves already.
and magnanimous, - this word bleeds condescension. Superior to inferior.
merciful and forbearing - more condescension. Superior to inferior.
mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. - complete and utter religious or spiritual horse pucks.
Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. - More posturing. Who cares about self-sacrifice and lasting influence? Martyrs need their heads examined.
May achieve true heroism and historical greatness. - Who cares? Not sure how many times I need to say that I have zero interest in becoming a narcissistic hero.

 

[A window to the soul]

Balance

Breaking it down:

Level 1 (At Their Best):

Become self-restrained - assumes that 8s require self-restraint. Not everyone will be nutbar 8. Some of us do have control over ourselves already.
and magnanimous, - this word bleeds condescension. Superior to inferior.
merciful and forbearing - more condescension. Superior to inferior.
mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. - complete and utter religious or spiritual horse pucks.
Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. - More posturing. Who cares about self-sacrifice and lasting influence? Martyrs need their heads examined.
May achieve true heroism and historical greatness. - Who cares? Not sure how many times I need to say that I have zero interest in becoming a narcissistic hero.

^Nobody here is talking (or alluding to) extremes like that. There's an optimum state of being and once you discover it for yourself, you'll understand.

 

[rav3n]

^Nobody here is talking (or alluding to) extremes like that. There's an optimum state of being and once you discover it for yourself, you'll understand.

Oh, so everyone is basically saying that the quoted Level 1 which came from the Enneagram Institute, is full of it just like what I'm saying. Glad to hear this!

 

[A window to the soul]

Oh, so everyone is basically saying that the quoted Level 1 which came from the Enneagram Institute, is full of it just like I'm saying. Glad to hear this!

No. I think level 1 sounds balanced. A strong person capable of doing what's best for the overall well being of society as a whole. Self-restraint is not nutbar, it's an attractive quality. Merciful is beautiful. Self-surrender is so humbling to witness. Heroism is truly admirable. If the world would be more like this, it would be like heaven.

 

[rav3n]

No. I think level 1 sounds balanced. A strong person capable of doing what's best for the overall well being of society as a whole. Self-restraint is not nutbar, it's an attractive quality. Merciful is beautiful. Self-surrender is so humbling to witness. Heroism is truly admirable. If the world would be more like this, it would be like heaven.

Not even sure why you're even in this thread. As a 9 even with an 8 wing, it's like an INFP trying to be an ENTJ. Not going to happen.

 

[A window to the soul]

Not even sure why you're even in this thread. As a 9 even with an 8 wing, it's like an INFP trying to be an ENTJ. Not going to happen.

I'm as equally 9 as I am 8. I can run circles around you. My guess is, IRL, I already have.

 

[rav3n]

I'm as equally 9 as I am 8. I can run circles around you. My guess is, IRL, I already have.

Debating with you is like winning the Special Olympics. It's always retarded!

 

[Hate]

I'm as equally 9 as I am 8. I can run circles around you. My guess is, IRL, I already have.

Weren't you like the biggest self-proclaimed INFP in the world before? Yes, I remember.
Now all of a sudden your an INTP type 8.. lol.. that's hilarious.

What's even more funny is that you think you could actually run circles around Metaphor. She would eat you for breakfast.

 

[A window to the soul]

Weren't you like the biggest self-proclaimed INFP in the world before? Yes, I remember.
Now all of a sudden your an INTP type 8.. lol.. that's hilarious.

What's even more funny is that you think you could actually run circles around Metaphor. She would eat you for breakfast.

I'm a senior level software developer that cares about people. I'm happy to entertain you. Yes, I could run circles around anyone that does not operate at optimum (level 1); it's not up for debate; it's a fact.

 

[rav3n]

I'm a senior level software developer that cares about people. I'm happy to entertain you. Yes, I could run circles around anyone that does not operate at optimum (level 1); it's not up for debate; it's a fact.

And being a senior level software developer is a big deal?

 

[Hate]

I'm a senior level software developer that cares about people. I'm happy to entertain you. Yes, I could run circles around anyone that does not operate at optimum (level 1); it's not up for debate; it's a fact.

This thread is for 8's, btw... not 9's trying to be 8's.

 

[JocktheMotie]

I can see why you don't like it. It does have the heavy tinge of type 2 in it, while the description for the healthiest 5 for example just seems like, well, a 5. I guess at the healthiest level the 8 should be able to feel like they can be those things without fear: without feeling that they will be taken advantage of and controlled by opening up. They can let up with the constant vigilance. I definitely don't think they're like the description above all the time, like it implies.

The second level does sound better.

 

[highlander]

You're not paying any attention to what I've previously written about moving towards a two. The integration is one that I personally refuse to make since it means embracing Fe beliefs which I fully reject as what's considered emotionally healthy for an 8, by Riso and Hudson. Heroes and martyrs are about as far from being emotionally healthy as you can get.

Breaking it down:

Level 1 (At Their Best):

Become self-restrained - assumes that 8s require self-restraint. Not everyone will be nutbar 8. Some of us do have control over ourselves already.
and magnanimous, - this word bleeds condescension. Superior to inferior.
merciful and forbearing - more condescension. Superior to inferior.
mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. - complete and utter religious or spiritual horse pucks.
Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. - More posturing. Who cares about self-sacrifice and lasting influence? Martyrs need their heads examined.
May achieve true heroism and historical greatness. - Who cares? Not sure how many times I need to say that I have zero interest in becoming a narcissistic hero.

Yeah. Take a look at Ghandi. The unhealthy, condescending, narcissistic and superior bastard. Who did he think he was?

No. I think level 1 sounds balanced. A strong person capable of doing what's best for the overall well being of society as a whole. Self-restraint is not nutbar, it's an attractive quality. Merciful is beautiful. Self-surrender is so humbling to witness. Heroism is truly admirable. If the world would be more like this, it would be like heaven.

Not even sure why you're even in this thread. As a 9 even with an 8 wing, it's like an INFP trying to be an ENTJ. Not going to happen.

I agree with perfectgirl.

 

[slowriot]

im not going to read all the comments. You do know level 1 and 2 is something only very few 8s gets to, right? Usually level 3-5 is the normal 8 description.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I agree with perfectgirl.

^ seconded.

 

[Jaguar]

I agree with perfectgirl.

So do I.

 

[slowriot]

I can see why you don't like it. It does have the heavy tinge of type 2 in it, while the description for the healthiest 5 for example just seems like, well, a 5. I guess at the healthiest level the 8 should be able to feel like they can be those things without fear: without feeling that they will be taken advantage of and controlled by opening up. They can let up with the constant vigilance. I definitely don't think they're like the description above all the time, like it implies.

The second level does sound better.

to bolded, yes if you are Einstein

 

[JocktheMotie]

to bolded, yes if you are Einstein

Yeah they're all like that. They're basically describing the upper limits of the types. I don't think many get that far, but it seems like they sell these "levels of health" as though everyone hits them at some point. IMO, Helen Palmer's spectrum of healthy/unhealthy is far more realistic in terms of scope.

 

[rav3n]

There is a distinct gender divide and I, as a woman feel the enneagram descriptions for 8's doesn't address this at all. The generalised description of 8's are easy to relate to, to some degree. That's why I don't question that I'm an 8w7 but one who believes that moving towards a 5 is more applicable to myself, for the purposes of self-actualisation.

Balance shouldn't be towards more instinctual levels, which includes emotions, especially Fe based expectations for Level 1.

So, ultimately, I reject the upper health levels and find them, as well as the unhealthy levels, too over-the-top. I have no interest in becoming a martyr and a hero. Very emotionally unhealthy.