Depression as a failure of creativity?

[ygolo]

I am struck by some parallels of living life and making art.

Imagine some artists and composers face blank canvases or blank scores. A lot of things can happen.

1) They can be stuck, "what should I create?" they ask themselves. They can stay stuck like that for a long time. Nothing comes of it.

2) They can drudge along. Start with a rectangle, or a single note or whatever. Look at it, make some artistic judgements and continue editing. On and on they can go. Eventually, they have a work of something. Is it art? Is it crap? Their editing gets tiring and wearisome. They can just stop at any time, declare "vicotry," and move on. But it strikes them that it is empty, hideous, and not at all what they wanted to create.

3) They can be a practiced hand, and just crank out whatever. After all they are skilled and honed in their craft. They have always shone, and have many awards to prove their skills are acknowledged by many. But they know inside, no mater how satisfied their public is of their work, nothing of themselves has gone into it. They are nothing more than skilled crank-shafts, turning out what they were trained to do.

4) They can be "happy" turning out trite works, that their friends and families will compliment them on. Some people will admire their handy-work. But nothing really special, or of-note, has come of it. They are amateurs. They love what they do, which is a plus. But a small part of them will always wonder, "what can I do to be better?"

5) Perhaps a blessed few can be professional ameteurs. Loving what they do, and doing it really well.


Now imagine a person, who has enough maturity, and explored enough of the spiritual beliefs available, to have come to realize that they make their owm meaning in life.

What does this person face? Is it not the same as the situation facing artists with blank canvases?

They can get stuck, drudge on without ever being satisfied, crank out what comes naturally to them without investing anything of themselvs, live a life of ignorant hapiness, or perhaps be one of the blessed few who live happy AND productive lives.

In this situation, then, depression seems likely. That is unless one's creative abilities can create a truly meaningful life.

 

[Mole]

I am struck by some parallels of living life and making art.

Imagine some artists and composers face blank canvases or blank scores. A lot of things can happen.

1) They can be stuck, "what should I create?" they ask themselves. They can stay stuck like that for a long time. Nothing comes of it.

2) They can drudge along. Start with a rectangle, or a single note or whatever. Look at it, make some artistic judgements and continue editing. On and on they can go. Eventually, they have a work of something. Is it art? Is it crap? Their editing gets tiring and wearisome. They can just stop at any time, declare "vicotry," and move on. But it strikes them that it is empty, hideous, and not at all what they wanted to create.

3) They can be a practiced hand, and just crank out whatever. After all they are skilled and honed in their craft. They have always shone, and have many awards to prove their skills are acknowledged by many. But they know inside, no mater how satisfied their public is of their work, nothing of themselves has gone into it. They are nothing more than skilled crank-shafts, turning out what they were trained to do.

4) They can be "happy" turning out trite works, that their friends and families will compliment them on. Some people will admire their handy-work. But nothing really special, or of-note, has come of it. They are amateurs. They love what they do, which is a plus. But a small part of them will always wonder, "what can I do to be better?"

5) Perhaps a blessed few can be professional ameteurs. Loving what they do, and doing it really well.


Now imagine a person, who has enough maturity, and explored enough of the spiritual beliefs available, to have come to realize that they make their owm meaning in life.

What does this person face? Is it not the same as the situation facing artists with blank canvases?

They can get stuck, drudge on without ever being satisfied, crank out what comes naturally to them without investing anything of themselvs, live a life of ignorant hapiness, or perhaps be one of the blessed few who live happy AND productive lives.

In this situation, then, depression seems likely. That is unless one's creative abilities can create a truly meaningful life.

It's simpler. When you are creating, you are flowing. You are completely 100% satisfied with what you are doing.

 

[nanook]

we don't create anything, we facilitate what is there.
in live its damn more complicated, because what needs to be facilitated is interpersonal potential: rather than just choosing an arbitrary canvas for your live, you need to position yourself in a proper place. it's like when an artist would have to ask his pencil: would you mind, working with me? there is no interpersonal potential, without a setting that allows interpersonal cooperation. you don't create a meaningful life out of thin air.
(okay, .... there might be ONE exception )

 

[Gamine]

If you live for your art, and your art lives for you.... isn't that the measurement of the artist's life?

What about those pieces that come forward to you when you are the hungriest for inspiration? Desperate, depressed, manic?

Don't we all face those moments? Where we don't just want an answer or a decision, but need one?

What about an alternate frame that an artist lives so their art can live through them?

 

[01011010]

Now imagine a person, who has enough maturity, and explored enough of the spiritual beliefs available, to have come to realize that they make their owm meaning in life.

If an individual has enough sense to create their own meaning for life, surely they can create any type of art they please. It takes a certain thought process to come to that conclusion in the first place. When a person is capable of that...

 

[527468]

If an individual has enough sense to create their own meaning for life, surely they can create any type of art they please. It takes a certain thought process to come to that conclusion in the first place. When a person is capable of that...

Suicide.

 

[01011010]

Suicide.

It's obvious. A person that opens their mind enough to create and accept their own path, is theoretically capable of giving life to great art.

 

[Lasting_Pain]

I am no artist but I am a poet and sometimes I can stare at a blank piece of paper for 20 minutes without writing a single line. I sometimes get mad myself for not being able to come up with anything, but I put it to the side and come back to it later. Usually then, I am able to come up with some fresh Ideas.

 

[Mole]

I am no artist but I am a poet and sometimes I can stare at a blank piece of paper for 20 minutes without writing a single line. I sometimes get mad myself for not being able to come up with anything, but I put it to the side and come back to it later. Usually then, I am able to come up with some fresh Ideas.

I rather like starting with one word, then seeing what is says and writing it down. Then I have two words who are having a conversation and all I have to do is eavesdrop.

 

[Journey]

I am struck by some parallels of living life and making art.

Imagine some artists and composers face blank canvases or blank scores. A lot of things can happen.

1) They can be stuck, "what should I create?" they ask themselves. They can stay stuck like that for a long time. Nothing comes of it.

2) They can drudge along. Start with a rectangle, or a single note or whatever. Look at it, make some artistic judgements and continue editing. On and on they can go. Eventually, they have a work of something. Is it art? Is it crap? Their editing gets tiring and wearisome. They can just stop at any time, declare "vicotry," and move on. But it strikes them that it is empty, hideous, and not at all what they wanted to create.

3) They can be a practiced hand, and just crank out whatever. After all they are skilled and honed in their craft. They have always shone, and have many awards to prove their skills are acknowledged by many. But they know inside, no mater how satisfied their public is of their work, nothing of themselves has gone into it. They are nothing more than skilled crank-shafts, turning out what they were trained to do.

4) They can be "happy" turning out trite works, that their friends and families will compliment them on. Some people will admire their handy-work. But nothing really special, or of-note, has come of it. They are amateurs. They love what they do, which is a plus. But a small part of them will always wonder, "what can I do to be better?"

5) Perhaps a blessed few can be professional ameteurs. Loving what they do, and doing it really well.


Now imagine a person, who has enough maturity, and explored enough of the spiritual beliefs available, to have come to realize that they make their owm meaning in life.

What does this person face? Is it not the same as the situation facing artists with blank canvases?

They can get stuck, drudge on without ever being satisfied, crank out what comes naturally to them without investing anything of themselvs, live a life of ignorant hapiness, or perhaps be one of the blessed few who live happy AND productive lives.

In this situation, then, depression seems likely. That is unless one's creative abilities can create a truly meaningful life.

Why do you assume that the only path for a person with maturity is "to come to realize that they make their own meaning in life?" That is rather presumptuous of you, don't you think? Perhaps it isn't the most mature route. (That could be a cause for depression.)

 

[ygolo]

Why do you assume that the only path for a person with maturity is "to come to realize that they make their own meaning in life?" That is rather presumptuous of you, don't you think? Perhaps it isn't the most mature route. (That could be a cause for depression.)

I appreceate your sentiment, and thank you for your concern.

Not to offend anyone, but I've known devout Chiristians, and devout believers of every major religion, who were quite a bit more depressed than I am (Besides, mine seems to be rooted in biology).

I've studied the major religions. I spent almost 4 years (and 4 churches) on Chiristianity.

It maybe presumptuous to believe that we make our own meaning in our lives. But it is presumption I've come to believe after a lot of thought and study.

Anyone who has beliefs about meaning in life, is being presumptuous.

 

[Hirsch63]

Artworks contain a number of elements (line, mass, color etc.) and these elements are arranged into a composition using the principles of art (balance, rhythm, etc.). Our artworks or compositions are under our control; we choose to engage in the artistic process and also the materials we may use. So, there is a framework and a process to artistic efforts even "folk" art can be described using the commonly understood elements and principles.

Could the elements and principles of art find relatives in philosophical theory? Or could they find a relationship to Maslow's hierarchies?

We can certainly try to make our lives an art; a practised way of being that requires deliberate reaction to the reality we find ourselves within. Unlike our art where we are "in control" the practice of our lives may be subject to forces beyond our influence and our lives become "collaborative" artworks, like it or not.

Finding a framework within which to live, a religious or political philosophy can certainly allow us to find meaning with minimal effort; it is a paint-by-numbers sort of existence living as a rigid adherent. Choosing a prescribed path does not imply Good vs. Bad or right vs. wrong...that is still up to the individual. To create a life outside of commonly (or familiarly) accepted modes is to invite scrutiny (usually from the aforementioned rigid adherents)...Frida Kahlo may serve as an unconventional example for her time and not suprisingly her life is immersed in art and her art in her life. Jesus son of Joseph too...very unconventional in his interpretations of the spirit of the law over the letter, an adherent to be sure but not rigid as much as impassioned. I am confident that history is full of examples from every culture.

There is more freedom in the creation of our art than in the creation of our lives. I do not mean to say that a meaningful life cannot be created; just that it may require from us our greatest depths of imagination and commited effort; with this it is almost inevitable that art will be produced as a side effect.

Is our depression a result of an undefined goal or our inability to achieve an end long sought? How do we hit our target when it may always be movng or not there at all? In choosing our purpose we are allowed our greatest latitude and opportunity for creativity. What if we fall short, repeatedly? Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over yet expecting for a different result? Is that dogged pursuance of the apparently unobtainable a noble quest? Conciet? Immaturity? Can we have everything, anything we want damn the expense? Is our depression a form of pouting? As someone personally affected by depression I have wieghed this idea many times...I believe much of our meloncholies can be a physical phenomena...yet when we are ill, compromised there is an opportunity for less desireable traits to works their way into our behaviour and thought serruptitiously compounding our frustration and undermining our focus.

 

[Lasting_Pain]

I rather like starting with one word, then seeing what is says and writing it down. Then I have two words who are having a conversation and all I have to do is eavesdrop.

lol, that was quite funny.

 

[Journey]

I appreceate your sentiment, and thank you for your concern.

Not to offend anyone, but I've known devout Chiristians, and devout believers of every major religion, who were quite a bit more depressed than I am (Besides, mine seems to be rooted in biology).

I've studied the major religions. I spent almost 4 years (and 4 churches) on Chiristianity.

It maybe presumptuous to believe that we make our own meaning in our lives. But it is presumption I've come to believe after a lot of thought and study.

Anyone who has beliefs about meaning in life, is being presumptuous.

We'll have to agree to disagree on who is being presumptuous.

 

[Mole]

lol, that was quite funny.

I do have a problem.

Quite often when I am being literal, I come across as funny.

I have often wondered why.

At first I thought it was the fault of the listener, in that perhaps they didn't understand what I was saying, so kind of, laughed.

But now I don't think this is correct.

I think the humour is somehow in the way I say things and what I say.

But the my problem is that I can't see it myself.

It seems to me that I am just saying what is literally true.

 

[matmos]

I do have a problem.

Quite often when I am being literal, I come across as funny.

I have often wondered why.

At first I thought it was the fault of the listener, in that perhaps they didn't understand what I was saying, so kind of, laughed.

But now I don't think this is correct.

I think the humour is somehow in the way I say things and what I say.

But the my problem is that I can't see it myself.

It seems to me that I am just saying what is literally true.

A few may mock. But I believe you are deadly serious, whatever the affectations ascribed.

In comedy lurks the things we don't want to hear, just as the interwebs beckon come-hither. Like a bar with blacked-out windows that yells, Stay out. But go in for a pint.

As you know, with every festival comes a certain amount of cruelty. And there's the paradox.

 

[ygolo]

Artworks contain a number of elements (line, mass, color etc.) and these elements are arranged into a composition using the principles of art (balance, rhythm, etc.). Our artworks or compositions are under our control; we choose to engage in the artistic process and also the materials we may use. So, there is a framework and a process to artistic efforts even "folk" art can be described using the commonly understood elements and principles.

Could the elements and principles of art find relatives in philosophical theory? Or could they find a relationship to Maslow's hierarchies?

We can certainly try to make our lives an art; a practised way of being that requires deliberate reaction to the reality we find ourselves within. Unlike our art where we are "in control" the practice of our lives may be subject to forces beyond our influence and our lives become "collaborative" artworks, like it or not.

Finding a framework within which to live, a religious or political philosophy can certainly allow us to find meaning with minimal effort; it is a paint-by-numbers sort of existence living as a rigid adherent. Choosing a prescribed path does not imply Good vs. Bad or right vs. wrong...that is still up to the individual. To create a life outside of commonly (or familiarly) accepted modes is to invite scrutiny (usually from the aforementioned rigid adherents)...Frida Kahlo may serve as an unconventional example for her time and not suprisingly her life is immersed in art and her art in her life. Jesus son of Joseph too...very unconventional in his interpretations of the spirit of the law over the letter, an adherent to be sure but not rigid as much as impassioned. I am confident that history is full of examples from every culture.

There is more freedom in the creation of our art than in the creation of our lives. I do not mean to say that a meaningful life cannot be created; just that it may require from us our greatest depths of imagination and commited effort; with this it is almost inevitable that art will be produced as a side effect.

Is our depression a result of an undefined goal or our inability to achieve an end long sought? How do we hit our target when it may always be movng or not there at all? In choosing our purpose we are allowed our greatest latitude and opportunity for creativity. What if we fall short, repeatedly? Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over yet expecting for a different result? Is that dogged pursuance of the apparently unobtainable a noble quest? Conciet? Immaturity? Can we have everything, anything we want damn the expense? Is our depression a form of pouting? As someone personally affected by depression I have wieghed this idea many times...I believe much of our meloncholies can be a physical phenomena...yet when we are ill, compromised there is an opportunity for less desireable traits to works their way into our behaviour and thought serruptitiously compounding our frustration and undermining our focus.

This is rather insightful Hirsch. You've given me a lot to ponder. Thankyou.

We'll have to agree to disagree on who is being presumptuous.

Certainly. I hope you know that I wasn't trying to mock your faith.

 

[heart]

Working creatively will put a person in direct contact with their inner most emotions, I think and so it may actually increase feelings of depression at times in very sharp focus.

...yet when we are ill, compromised there is an opportunity for less desireable traits to works their way into our behaviour and thought serruptitiously compounding our frustration and undermining our focus.

Absoultely.

 

[Venom]

We'll have to agree to disagree on who is being presumptuous.

you do realize that he included himself in the
"Anyone who has beliefs about meaning in life, is being presumptuous"?

further, even if one particular religion did get to dictate "the meaning of life", the majority of the world would not be a part of that religion (is islam or christianity over 50% of the world yet?) and so when the true meaning of life is waged on to those who followed it, the rest will be screwed. For those people left out, in the most practical sense, the meaning they made up for themselves will be the closest thing they had to a meaning (since they missed out on the true one).

 

[nightning]

Sounds strange coming from an NJ... but the process of creating to me is about letting go of your expectations and just immerse yourself in the creativity process. It's true that the final product matters... but in order to create something that's meaningful to you... you have to experience the process... to "fully live it".

I don't know about anybody else... but for me... being depressed leads to the fear of failure. Worrying over how something is going to turn out badly... and that hampers with the creative process.