Demanding Fakeness

[FemMecha]

My biggest pet peeve is when people impose on me to show happiness of excitement.

Amen brother!

Actually, I dated a guy/family who had those types of expectations. The guy was a kind of yuppy Joel Oetkin type fellow. (please don't ask why I dated him ) One time they asked me how my day was. It was not a good day and I had a headache. I said something like, "Oh, not the best, but i'm surviving". An awkward silence fell like I had said something terribly wrong. Another time some news was shared with me and I calmly replied "oh, that's really great". I was later taken aside and scolded for not showing more excitement. Later he asked me what I thought about something and I said, "hey that's pretty nice" He replied indignantly, PRETTY nice!? It was VERY nice! :steam:

Smiley, cheerful, and yet VERY anal retentive people. What the hell happened during potty training?


Edit: I don't really mind neediness or validating people. What I don't care for is people thinking the very worst possible thing about me. Yeah, I just get away from them quick and spend time with my cat who thinks i'm VERY nice.

 

[SillySapienne]

After reading a few responses...

One thing I don't understand is why everyone is so bothered by the "false" nature of interactions. Don't you realize that if we didn't have that in place, we'd actually have to get down in there and interact with everybody to keep them appeased? Which takes a lot more energy/thought than a standardized response. Honestly, just imagining trying to deal with so many individual, unpredictable demands on a regular basis makes me terrified. :horor:

Giving people nothing but basic symbols of acceptance/politeness is an easy way to keep them "off your back" emotionally. If you give them all the right responses (which almost never change), you barely have to think about or interact with them, and they don't even dislike you for it. They'll probably even think you're a nice person. What's the downside?

I'd think it would actually seem like a good thing, because you aren't expected to really deal with the person, you can just give them a quick, standard response, and go back to your thoughts.

My dear, there is a difference between being neutral, and being phony.

 

[cafe]

I guess I'm just not around that many people who don't know me well or something. I don't get a lot of that kind of crap. Somehow I seem to emit an icy/spacey vibe or something when I'm not feeling chatty and when I'm really not feeling chatty and I have to be around people, I pop in my earbuds and most people take the hint. Around here, people are friendly, but it's rare that they are pushy about it.

OTOH, I'm not all concerned about being sincere or whatever. If someone is asking for affirmation in some way, I try to give it to them. I don't have to feel like it. I mean, to me, not giving someone who needs affirmation what they need because I'm not feeling it would be like not feeding my kids because I'm not feeling nurturing today. If a relative or friend needs something and I have it in my power to give it to them, they are going to get it. It's just not a big deal and it's not about me. It's about them.

Now if they keep at it and keep at it eventually I'm going to tire of it and play dumb like I'm not picking up the signals. They can decide if they want to seek affirmation elsewhere or they want to keep talking to me. *shrug*

As far as showing enthusiasm goes, I'm a quiet person and I'm not bubbly. I am genuinely pleased and happy for people when good things happen for them or they accomplish something, etc and I will show it, but it's going to be "Are you serious?? That's great! I'm so happy for you!" Not screaming or jumping or anything, though if it's a big deal like a much hoped for pregnancy, I'll probably cry.

To me, people who are overly concerned with being honest, etc with people all the time just end up dumping their crap on everyone for them to have to deal with instead of being considerate and using a little restraint. Really, most people do not care what you honestly think or feel. They are just trying to get through their day and do their thing. Your opinion, my opinion? Not that important.

That doesn't mean I will not respond in kind if someone is being a bully or whatever. My default is generally cooperative and polite. If that is met with something above and beyond, I will probably go above and beyond myself. If someone is snotty or rude, I'll try to make sure it's not just a misunderstanding first, but then I figure that is the tone they want to set for the encounter and act accordingly. They tend to back off and behave themselves then, which is just more pleasant for everyone.

 

[white]

My biggest pet peeve is when people impose on me to show happiness of excitement. There are subtle ways and not-so-subtle ways. No-so-subtly, people will ask me occasionally if I'm ok, why I'm not not smiling, why I'm not happy, why I look so sad, etc. Most of the time I'm actually just calm and reflecting on things which makes the inquiry not only imposing, but offensive, as if to say there's something wrong with not talking or not engaging. Fuck off. Even if I was sad, there are better ways to get a person to open up than to "accuse" them of violating social norms.

Then of course there are the less obvious ways people demand artificiality:

Validation requests. There people Some people will leave clues for you to validate them and show you how much you appreciate them. Even if you're not feeling it, their hints force you to seek or feign feelings that aren't necessarily there. These people lack a strong, stable self-image and need the validation of others to rid them of feelings of worthlessness.

The "yay!!!!" and other tools. Watch a group of people when one of them starts to yay!, and the rest will start yay!ing with them. Yay!ing is a way of forcing others to mirror one's level of fake enthusiasm and return it. A failure to respond with another yay is often taken as a social rejection. Yay!ing, of course, is only one way people force energy levels to go up. Another way is through constant, stentorian laughter, post-joke glaring that force the listener to laugh, or even blasting techno music all day. These folks can't tolerate quiet and calm environments and need to pump the atmosphere with "positivity," even if it's contrived.

It's interesting to see how people who are more dominant tend to reject these demands to approval or excitement, while submissives accede to these requests. I personally can't tolerate this (even when I make my own requests for validation), and think it's a great introvert-marker. It drains me like nothing else.

Part of it is this learnt behaviour. Somehow the pursuit of happiness seemed to have ended up as an inalienable right to be happy. So everyone seems to be in a rush to be happy, and for everyone around to be "all right", as if being sad is not being normal.

Whatever normal means.

But it is the flip side of the coin, isn't it. Methinks to achieve that quiet state of centredness, where one is happy in spite of, requires walking through much sadness actually... But seems like a lot of people think fake happiness is better than sadness, and is the path to true happiness. "Fake it till you make it"

Hence the imposition on anyone who is down. You're breaking their illusion.

Usually, to anyone who asks if I'm ok. I don't lie. I just answer, "I'll be ok."

Re validation. It depends on the person. Sometimes I give it. Life is sometimes hard as an extrovert, because the sense of self comes from external (which was why my other thread asking how to develop Fi). The lack of balance means a need for affirmation from external, no matter how much a person believes they can do without it. If the words you say, whether or not you mean it, matter to another, would you utter them with care? The lie only comes about if you do not care about the person. The words then could be a lie, but overall, if that is the relationship you want to maintain for the next 50 years, what words would you utter? It is also a question of what is important to you. Truth at what cost.

The whiteness of lies.

But perhaps. Sometimes those who ask, truly care. So, even if I need that space and time alone, I tend to let them in. Some people need to care for others to feel ok.

lol. Edahn. Am I out of point. *shakes head*

 

[raindancing]

Nice thread.

Validation and me:

I have a bit of trouble giving validation when someone has shown not-so-subtle signs that they want some. When I sense/notice it, I immediately feel on edge and have an impulse to sarcastically say the opposite of what they want. I think a lot of this stems from my childhood though. My mom has always been quite manipulative, ok 'quite' is probably an understatement. She has always employed the 'subtle' form of manipulation (I put subtle in quotes because she thinks no one notices it).
So now, whenever someone seems to be asking for validation I instantly interpret it as "they're trying to manipulate me into saying what they want, I'll say something sarcastic so they know I'm onto it."

I'm slowly learning that this isn't actually the intention of most people (with help from my INTP husband), but it's hard. Partially because I'm not actually sure it isn't their intention (conscious or not).
And to make it even harder, every time I talk to my mom I have to reapply all that I've been (sort of) trying to unlearn, because yes, that really is manipulation.
(Of course my husband and I always have a very good time picking apart the entire conversation and laughing about it afterwards.
Somewhere on this forum someone said that one of the great things about an INTP is that they allow you (an INFP) to be nasty sometimes. So true. )

Ok, this was longer than I intended... and hopefully not too off topic.

 

[proteanmix]

To defend some Fs, a lot of women, and I'm guessing most mothers, when in the company of someone you care about and they *appear* down/sullen/not-ok, it is damn near instinctual for, at least me, to ask what is wrong.

In regards to other people, and more pertinently, in regards to people I care about, I can only know what they show me, and what they tell me. If there is confusion, or discrepancy between these two things, then my desire to truly understand them urges me to ask.

^ I don't know how much that relates with your OP, but that's what it made me think of.

Also, listen to all you "I"s go!!!!!

I can't tell you how often my E-ness has been appreciated by purposeful, or unpurposeful alienated introverts.

When I don't want to be bothered, I'm not. I am a girl, and even I have perfected the art of "stay the hell away from me" vibes.

Also if you want to be left alone, do what I do, *be* alone.

I have a general rule of asking three times, (mind you, I only do so to close friends/family members, and only when I truly *feel* like something is up...and usually, there is).

However, after the third time I ask and they insist they are fine, I leave them be.


* Also, it should be noted if, and when, someone says, "I just want to be left alone." I *always* respect their wishes!!!

Well, gotdamn, I'm going to have to agree with CC on all these points.

I guess I'm one of the annoying people in the OP. If I see someone who's *looks* despondent I ask them if anything's wrong. My experience is there's usually something wrong and even though they may not tell me immediately a few weeks down the line they'll say that that particular time period wasn't good for them. I don't think I demand happiness that they don't feel, but I am genuinely concerned if anything is wrong.

There are a few women at my job who ALWAYS look depressed. They walk around with their heads down, mutter to people, ignore you in the elevator even though they know you work with them. I figured this is their general disposition and I don't say anything to them at all and I notice I've begun to dislike one of them. They have expressed little interest in those around them and even when given the chance to reciprocate to at least signal non-malicious intent, they've done nothing. The one I'm beginning to dislike I've tried to draw her out, joke with her, or find some way into her and she seems completely humorless and bland.

I'm more than willing to leave people like this alone and my time on the forum has taught me that when I see people like this, just ignore them because they're probably happy as larks. If I see someone in a corner at a party sitting alone I ignore them and continue chillin with my friends. When I'm at my film group and someone's sitting there not speaking, I don't ask them if they have anything to say because I don't want to put them on the spot and make them feel awkward. Basically, I'm trying to learn to ignore some outward signs of depression in people because this may be their natural disposition. I know that sounds like a swing in the opposite direction, but if I can't trust the few signals that indicate someone is gloomy or unhappy I'm quite lost and if asking if they're OK is requiring fakeness then I'd rather say nothing at all.

Maybe this is an E vs. I difference, I don't know.

 

[Totenkindly]

The "yay!!!!" and other tools. [/B]Watch a group of people when one of them starts to yay!, and the rest will start yay!ing with them. Yay!ing is a way of forcing others to mirror one's level of fake enthusiasm and return it.

But... but... what if Googley and me and Metho and 563 and all the other Yayer's are actually yaying because we ARE happy?

Someone's not feeling really good 'bout their lives, are they? I think you just need a goooood biiiiiig waaaaaarm huggle!!! Yay! Yay! Yay!

 

[Hirsch63]

My biggest pet peeve is when people impose on me....why I'm not not smiling, why I'm not happy,etc. Most of the time I'm actually just calm and reflecting on things which makes the inquiry not only imposing, but offensive, as if to say there's something wrong with not talking or not engaging. Fuck off. Even if I was sad, there are better ways to get a person to open up than to "accuse" them of violating social norms.

Yay!ing is a way of forcing others to mirror one's level of fake enthusiasm and return it..... These folks can't tolerate quiet and calm environments and need to pump the atmosphere with "positivity," even if it's contrived.

I have been battling these perceptions most of my life. Especially in the workplace. The "glee nazis" will find you..."you know it takes fewer muscles to smile than frown?"...I'm not frowning! I'm reflecting or concentrating or just being me, get out of my face and go back to wading in the shallow end of the emotional pool. I could not agree with you more on this. It is part of the reason I have chosen self-employment;to avoid the burden of enforced social norms.

 

[Totenkindly]

Despite my jovial attitude here, IRL I hate it when people interfere with my moods.

If someone sees I'm down and wants to talk to me about why, without slapping a happy badge on it, I'm good with that -- that's real. It's obvious they're more concerned about me than just about making me happy (which seems to be more about them). If they're just trying to get me to be happy so they can go on their merry way, they can go flip themselves.

As far as validation requests, my time with a licensed practiced psychologist in training seminars taught me about something he called "pulling."

When you speak to a patient, there's always a pull of some sort. They have something they want, even if they don't recognize it, and they're trying to get it from you.

The job of the therapist is to resist the pull, instead comprehending the pull, what it means about the patient, and then determining what they really need. Not just giving them what they're vying for.

I don't think it's always bad to validate someone. Sometimes even healthy people just need to know you believe in them or support them or agree with them. That's normal. But always validating without really determining what the person needs is doing them a disservice; one has to be sensitive but also more canny than that, and give them what they really need.

 

[miss fortune]

why would you try and force a person to act cheerful? I suppose I'm equally annoying since I find someone who looks like they aren't having a good time at social events and plop down next to them and start to converse, but I never ask them what's wrong- I've always felt that if they want to talk about it I've made myself available, and if they don't that's thier business!

If someone appears to be unhappy I'll try to cheer them up by chatting with them, or if they don't seem to like that, I'll leave them alone... telling them to smile is pointless

of course if I am unhappy about something and people insist on prying (I hate it when people ask several questions about "why don't you look happy?" "you're a pretty girl, why don't you smile, you'll look prettier!" and things of that sort) Then I'll give them an earful that makes them wish they'd never bothered asking in the first place!

 

[heart]

So, you mean the people you interact with expect you to really interact with them frequently in very extroverted ways and fairly openly judge you for not doing so?? I would guess that might be because you've said something semi-personal that implies you want to be a real friend to them. I'm careful to keep the things I say/do within the "standard politeness" area where people can't infer that. They can hit you up with all kinds of expectations if you get outside of that by making a meaningful statement or being honest with them. That's why you should say as much as possible while not really saying anything other than "I acknowledge you, am fairly amiable to people but reserved, and do not dislike you." Thanks to the structure of our language/conventions, this is very easy to do. You want to keep your conversations more like a rice cake than actual food.

I have nothing against saying "Hi how are you?" in the obligatory way we're all expected to and I have nothing against saying "Fine" in return even when I am feeling like hell. That is not what I am talking about.

I am talking about people who seem to expect rainbows to be coming out my arse and my body quivering with excitement on a Monday morning. People who expect me to look like this 24/7--------> Or this-------> Or this------>

Why can't it be okay to be------->

 

[FemMecha]

I guess I'm just not around that many people who don't know me well or something. I don't get a lot of that kind of crap. Somehow I seem to emit an icy/spacey vibe or something when I'm not feeling chatty and when I'm really not feeling chatty and I have to be around people, I pop in my earbuds and most people take the hint. Around here, people are friendly, but it's rare that they are pushy about it...

cafe, I appreciated your entire post. It demonstrates a wise and reasonable approach to dealing with people. I was wondering what you think... If a person behaves consistently like you described being quiet and not bubbly, then will people be less likely to intrude to try to change their mood? If someone does exhibit a wider range of moods, then are people going to be more likely to try to get them back into the positive ones they find most charming? While another person who interacts consistently with others won't be bothered because they can create a certain expectation. People do seem to respond to habit and expectation.

 

[cafe]

cafe, I appreciated your entire post. It demonstrates a wise and reasonable approach to dealing with people. I was wondering what you think... If a person behaves consistently like you described being quiet and not bubbly, then will people be less likely to intrude to try to change their mood? If someone does exhibit a wider range of moods, then are people going to be more likely to try to get them back into the positive ones they find most charming? While another person who interacts consistently with others won't be bothered because they can create a certain expectation. People do seem to respond to habit and expectation.

It seems so. Sometimes people are taken aback at first, but after awhile they appear to either decide you're a cold fish and head off for sunnier pastures or decide that's just how you are and accept it. They may still not approve but they don't say too much about it.

 

[nightning]

Long long thread... many posts I want to reply to, but I think I'll be derailing the thread. So I guess not.

Like what Jennifer was mentioning before about the thread. Sometimes I act all silly happy because I am feeling silly happy. I don't expect people to share it with me if they don't want to though.

I will ask "what's wrong" if I notice somebody I care about is behaving differently. The more their behavior deviates from the norm and the more they keep on say "nothing" though, the more I'll persists. If that's called annoying, I don't care! I care about them and am concern! Although the key thing is that it has to be different from the norm... by that I mean normal behavior for that person. If that person is normally quiet and don't show much emotions... I wouldn't have any problems with that... but if they're normally more expressive but suddenly clams up, I'll ask for a reason.

My two cents

 

[heart]

cafe, I appreciated your entire post. It demonstrates a wise and reasonable approach to dealing with people. I was wondering what you think... If a person behaves consistently like you described being quiet and not bubbly, then will people be less likely to intrude to try to change their mood? If someone does exhibit a wider range of moods, then are people going to be more likely to try to get them back into the positive ones they find most charming? While another person who interacts consistently with others won't be bothered because they can create a certain expectation. People do seem to respond to habit and expectation.

I was pretty consistent at work and it never ceased, it was always with the same people. Not everyone is pushy like this. It just that the ones that are stick out.

 

[cafe]

I was pretty consistent at work and it never ceased, it was always with the same people. Not everyone is pushy like this. It just that the ones that are stick out.

That stinks. When you are at work and can't hide, it really stinks.

 

[heart]

Someone expressed the opinion that I don't assert enough outwards to stop this sort of thing, to make people feel they need to back off. That is probably very true.

Edit: The difference between my INFJ husband and me, he has no problem expressing outwards and getting people off his back. He doesn't understand why it is a problem for me.

 

[FemMecha]

I was pretty consistent at work and it never ceased, it was always with the same people. Not everyone is pushy like this. It just that the ones that are stick out.

Sorry to hear that! I'm rather consistent externally with acquaintances and such, but have occasionally encountered the type something like you describe (like my friend and his family who always scolded me as I mentioned earlier). On a related note, my teen years were spent at a boarding school where I managed to cry on the bus and other places without anyone ever noticing. I even cried myself to sleep many a night w/o my roommate ever knowing or asking how I was doing. I have no memory of anyone ever asking how I was doing, but then again I had a habit of smiling when I greeted people. Strangely enough the smiling didn't feel fake even though i wasn't happy. I liked seeing the people even if there was no connection to them. It was sort of like window shopping and seeing things you admire, but knowing they will never be a part of your life. I will say that the privacy when feeling vulnerable was a huge help over being placed on display somehow. It is better than false requests and pressure that feign concern.

That was many years ago, but I mention that side of the coin to make note that sincerely looking into the well being of someone is in fact important, even if sometimes misconstrued as an intrusion.

 

[cafe]

Someone expressed the opinion that I don't assert enough outwards to stop this sort of thing, to make people feel they need to back off. That is probably very true.

Edit: The difference between my INFJ husband and me, he has no problem expressing outwards and getting people off his back. He doesn't understand why it is a problem for me.

I don't understand it entirely, but I see it with my daughter. It's like she lacks a shell. People love her and are drawn to her and she doesn't hate them or anything, it's just too much. I don't attract people like she does. Of course she has that sweet INFP face, while I have the impassive INFJ face.

I wonder if there are body language signals that could be learned and implemented as needed.

Edit:

Sorry to hear that! I'm rather consistent externally with acquaintances and such, but have occasionally encountered the type something like you describe (like my friend and his family who always scolded me as I mentioned earlier). On a related note, my teen years were spent at a boarding school where I managed to cry on the bus and other places without anyone ever noticing. I even cried myself to sleep many a night w/o my roommate ever knowing or asking how I was doing. I have no memory of anyone ever asking how I was doing, but then again I had a habit of smiling when I greeted people. Strangely enough the smiling didn't feel fake even though i wasn't happy. I liked seeing the people even if there was no connection to them. It was sort of like window shopping and seeing things you admire, but knowing they will never be a part of your life. I will say that the privacy when feeling vulnerable was a huge help over being placed on display somehow. It is better than false requests and pressure that feign concern.

That was many years ago, but I mention that side of the coin to make note that sincerely looking into the well being of someone is in fact important, even if sometimes construed as an intrusion by mistake.

Boy I can identify with some of that. There have been times when I have really not been okay and flat out told people I was not okay and they didn't believe me. My own mother told me the day after I returned from the hospital with my fourth child (my oldest was in kindergarten) that I looked like I was handling things okay and didn't need her help. And off she went.

 

[heart]

I smile at people when I first see them and all that, I just don't have that "YoWZeries!" act going.

Maybe it is something about inverted judgement. They sense the withdrawal internally.