Cults

[Coriolis]

^^ [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] This is a great example of why I dislike posting definitions and think we would be much better off letting the thread flow.

A cult can be anything. I agree that all cults are characterized by a religious fervour and unquestioning adoration of the leader. But supernatural beliefs aren't required for a cult, it can be tied with politics, or be unrelated to either (cue Justin Bieber, lol). The worship of Kim Il Sung and his descendants as a good example of a politically grounded cult.

I am more interested in responding to the intended meaning of the OP than comparing his usage with the dictionary. He used the word "cult" to label his idea, but I know from previous experience that "cult" can be a loaded word, with different people having different interpretations. I can assume he is using the dictionary definition, and end up talking about something different from what he means, or I can ask him what he means, so we are discussing the same thing.

I suppose it all comes down to what you see as the purpose of the discussion to begin with. Of course it is fair game to criticise someone's definition or usage of a word, but even that depends on understanding how they are trying to use it.

 

[Mane]

A cult is the early form of religions that have not yet become accepted as mainstream, leading to an internal culture of exclusion & "us vs. the ignorant rest of the world" in turn enables them to use scrutiny from the outside world to further fuel the "they don't understand us" exclusionary factor, and increases the power and thus exploitative leeway cult leaders have with the following - while initial cult leaders might not use that maliciously, early growth pains allowing multiply cult cells will unavoidably increase the chance that some of the leaders will.

 

[Avocado]

I am more interested in responding to the intended meaning of the OP than comparing his usage with the dictionary. He used the word "cult" to label his idea, but I know from previous experience that "cult" can be a loaded word, with different people having different interpretations. I can assume he is using the dictionary definition, and end up talking about something different from what he means, or I can ask him what he means, so we are discussing the same thing.

I suppose it all comes down to what you see as the purpose of the discussion to begin with. Of course it is fair game to criticise someone's definition or usage of a word, but even that depends on understanding how they are trying to use it.

A high control group. I know some cults make their members kill their children. What is the appeal?

 

[Mane]

A high control group. I know some cults make their members kill their children. What is the appeal?

That was very common for older religions (example), So common in fact that The First Testament's story of Isaac is often thought to be political commentary against it. Not ordering the sacrifice of your own children was actually considered innovative. Yet it still shows the occasional resurgence - many suspect that the Catholic Church has taken part of child sacrifice as recently as 1967.

As a distinction from religion, it doesn't quite work.

 

[Mole]

One measure of cult is whether they consider themselves above the law of the land.

Our present Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse has shown that not only the Roman Catholic Church but other religions and associations regarded themselves above the law of the land.

So many churches and associations can be accurately described as cults.

However all of these churches and associations discovered by the Royal Commission have publicly apologised and changed their social practices, all except the Islamists, who openly and publicly defy the law of the land, in our Courts and on our streets, and in social media, and by taking up arms to fight Jihad in foreign countries.

 

[Avocado]

One measure of cult is whether they consider themselves above the law of the land.

Our present Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse has shown that not only the Roman Catholic Church but other religions and associations regarded themselves above the law of the land.

So many churches and associations can be accurately described as cults.

However all of these churches and associations discovered by the Royal Commission have publicly apologised and changed their social practices, all except the Islamists, who openly and publicly defy the law of the land, in our Courts and on our streets, and in social media, and by taking up arms to fight Jihad in foreign countries.

I am aware of this. I often see how most religions could be considered cults. Surely, though Heaven's Gate is worse than say, Methodist?

 

[Mole]

In a cult the leader can't be questioned, for instance, Master Li, the leader of Falun Gong, can't be questioned, so Falun Gong is a cult.

And in a cult, if the leader is found doing wrong, it makes no difference to the belief or behaviour of the followers. For instance, Carl Gustav Jung has been found to have done considerable evil, yet this does not affect the belief or behaviour of his followers on Typology Central. So Typology Central is a cult.

 

[Avocado]

In a cult the leader can't be questioned, for instance, Master Li, the leader of Falun Gong, can't be questioned, so Falun Gong is a cult.

And in a cult, if the leader is found doing wrong, it makes no difference to the belief or behaviour of the followers. For instance, Carl Gustav Jung has been found to have done considerable evil, yet this does not affect the belief or behaviour of his followers on Typology Central. So Typology Central is a cult.

He wotked with the nazis, yes...if I'm not mistaken.


...but, the theory he created is still a fun toy.

 

[Flâneuse]

Most people probably already know this, but many (if not most) cult leaders have high levels of narcissism and grandiosity. (Then again, so do many leaders within mainstream religions, but that's a discussion for another thread.) Instead of genuinely wanting to help people connect with god and/or their deeper spiritual natures, it's as though most cult leaders want to be worshipped as gods themselves. They often present themselves as benevolent and nurturing, as well as possessing special powers of personal and spiritual insight, but in reality their only special powers are in manipulating others and the only things they want deep down are control and reverence.

 

[Avocado]

Most people probably already know this, but many (if not most) cult leaders have high levels of narcissism and grandiosity. (Then again, so do many leaders within mainstream religions, but that's a discussion for another thread.) Instead of genuinely wanting to help people connect with god and/or their deeper spiritual natures, it's as though most cult leaders want to be worshipped as gods themselves. They often present themselves as benevolent and nurturing, as well as possessing special powers of personal and spiritual insight, but in reality their only special powers are in manipulating others and the only things they want deep down are control and reverence.

I experienced this…

 

[Ghoul]

Partly novelty, charisma of leaders, and marketting. They got a mission and a method. A successful cult can sell people on what's a problem and what's the solution. They give you a lens that simplifies and neatly packages philosophy. You hear about anarcho-capitalists and anti-statists for instance; who tell everyone that government/states are the ultimate evil and the proper response is less laws and regulation or communists that say class is everything and undermine it at any cost. Abusive luciferians and neocons alike might push for an atmosphere of fear and apathy that allows current imperialism to prosper in whatever way they have their bank accounts and status tied to. What I'm trying to say is I have no idea what I'm talking about but I figure cult is a bad word you can apply to any organization that agrees on stuff.

 

[Thalassa]

I think it first of all requires a kind of need to experience worshipful love and attribute god or goddesslike qualities to a charismatic person. It's interesting to me how sexual even Christianity is at its Catholic core (the church is the symbolic Bride of Christ, and even in the Old Testament God made Hosea take a wife of whoredom via prostitute Rahab to symbolizehis uunfailing love for the faithless Israel)...although sex as a physical act isn't always used it is commonly employed to exploit followers need for intimacy and family.People seek meaning and answers and love to have that in a tight knit community. It is a little baffling, suicide cults usually actually involve murder, the cult leader or leaders harshly turning and trapping people who attempt to run.

 

[Thalassa]

Partly novelty, charisma of leaders, and marketting. They got a mission and a method. A successful cult can sell people on what's a problem and what's the solution. They give you a lens that simplifies and neatly packages philosophy. You hear about anarcho-capitalists and anti-statists for instance; who tell everyone that government/states are the ultimate evil and the proper response is less laws and regulation or communists that say class is everything and undermine it at any cost. Abusive luciferians and neocons alike might push for an atmosphere of fear and apathy that allows current imperialism to prosper in whatever way they have their bank accounts and status tied to. What I'm trying to say is I have no idea what I'm talking about but I figure cult is a bad word you can apply to any organization that agrees on stuff.

Yeessss...but the difference is cults actually cut followers off from loved ones, sort of like an abusive significant other (again, the sex, family angle)...it's why Christianity is now NOT considered a cult as a whole, you are generally free to go and come as you please. But in the New Testament certain phrases like turning family members against one another and leaving everything behind to follow Me gives it a culty feel in its origins.

 

[Ghoul]

Yeessss...but the difference is cults actually cut followers off from loved ones, sort of like an abusive significant other (again, the sex, family angle)...it's why Christianity is now NOT considered a cult as a whole, you are generally free to go and come as you please. But in the New Testament certain phrases like turning family members against one another and leaving everything behind to follow Me gives it a culty feel in its origins.

Well that's your take on it and it certainly is a flavor I've heard of. You reminded me of a youtuber by the name of Stephen Molyneux who advises his ?anarchist? followers to cut off their parents/loved ones if they don't agree with the principles. I think the term to look up is "defoo".

 

[Thalassa]

Well that's your take on it and it certainly is a flavor I've heard of. You reminded me of a youtuber by the name of Stephen Molyneux who advises his ?anarchist? followers to cut off their parents/loved ones if they don't agree with the principals. I think the term to look up his "defoo".

No, that is pretty much THE definition of a cult, is isolationism, often little by little. Free will in principle separates the Judeo-Christian faith from cults, though there have been Christian cults, and I will just stop there.

 

[Thalassa]

Doncha know you're posting in one now?

You're wrong. I belong to the cult of Lana del Rey. Highlander will never be my Daddy.

 

[Thalassa]

^^ [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] This is a great example of why I dislike posting definitions and think we would be much better off letting the thread flow.

A cult can be anything. I agree that all cults are characterized by a religious fervour and unquestioning adoration of the leader. But supernatural beliefs aren't required for a cult, it can be tied with politics, or be unrelated to either (cue Justin Bieber, lol). The worship of Kim Il Sung and his descendants as a good example of a politically grounded cult.

A cult cannot be anything. Unless Highlander or Lana del Rey ask us to go live on a ranch in the wilderness of Colorado, they are not cult leaders. I can definitely see your comparison with Justin Bieber, etc. But the small, sectarian isolation thing is key. It has to be extremist and cut off. If not, pretty much all people exhibit cultish behavior, from fanatics of Nietzsche to Methodists. Cults are an exaggeration of these normal human tendencies and exploit them usually in favor of the ego of the leader.

 

[Kullervo]

A cult cannot be anything. Unless Highlander or Lana del Rey ask us to go live on a ranch in the wilderness of Colorado, they are not cult leaders. I can definitely see your comparison with Justin Bieber, etc. But the small, sectarian isolation thing is key. It has to be extremist and cut off. If not, pretty much all people exhibit cultish behavior, from fanatics of Nietzsche to Methodists. Cults are an exaggeration of these normal human tendencies and exploit them usually in favor of the ego of the leader.

Extremism is a much marred word, and unfairly so. Rarely does the truth lie halfway between two opposing positions.

From Wiki: "The word "cult" has been controversial. One reason is that it (as used in the pejorative sense) is considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with simply differing doctrines or practices, and without a clear or consistent definition."

To me, a cult requires irrational beliefs and an elevation of the leader to a status of a god-like being. Criticism of him becomes a heretical act.

 

[Oaky]

I have studied about cults because a close person I know was in a cult until... well.. we had to take him out by force and undo the brainwashing he received. He is still undergoing treatment. Cults are different to religions. Cults revolve around an individual, usually considered divine. It's different to religions in that religions believe in an unseen higher power and non-human entities. Cults usually die when the individual dies whereas religions, because God is undying, will not as easily die. The individual a cult revolves around usually wishes for money and power and presents himself as the ultimate divine authority. The cult leader falsely guarantees people things like mystical powers and the like, and separates the cult members from the rest of society in order to both brainwash and make them feel like their only home is the cult group. They never, of course receive these mystical powers and everyone that does not believe in the divinity of the individual is shunned. They learn trigger phrases. When a word is mentioned they repeat their triggered phrase. Any form of debate with them is useless because it feels like you're going around in circles again and again. They're unthinking. They have to be forced out or a loophole in the brainwashed defence mechanism has to be found and constantly pierced.
Cults can formed with a religion as base, which makes it easier for people to enter the cult. For example, in the form of Christianity, there are cults in which the cult leader claims to be Jesus and so christians can enter such a cult unknowingly being promised various things. The cult that the close individual I know entered had the individual claim divinity within all three monotheistic religions. There are of course cults out of the religions too.

 

[Thalassa]

Extremism is a much marred word, and unfairly so. Rarely does the truth lie halfway between two opposing positions.

From Wiki: "The word "cult" has been controversial. One reason is that it (as used in the pejorative sense) is considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with simply differing doctrines or practices, and without a clear or consistent definition."

To me, a cult requires irrational beliefs and an elevation of the leader to a status of a god-like being. Criticism of him becomes a heretical act.

Excuse me, I need to go ask Lana if it's ok to keep talking to you.

You probably most def think Grateful Dead and Phish are cults then, eh, if you even include Bieber fever.