Cross-Casting in Film & TV

[Totenkindly]

I'll give it a shot because I like Ellen Page.

Yeah. Her role is average here, she does as well with it as she can... her character is very passive for the first half of the season. She's an important character, so it kind of drags the plot unless you are anticipating where her line is going. Again, she's decent with it, the part is just maybe written a bit ploddy.

Completely on a tangent (which could probably deserve its own thread), I find it interesting because I know she's a lesbian but plays straight women in the majority of things I've seen her in -- (this, Juno, probably other stuff).

But there's such a big stink nowadays about having LGBT folks play LGBT characters, rather than having straight/cis actors play them. yet LGBT actors are playing straight/cis characters, and that is what acting is. I have such mixed feelings about that whole discussion. I can agree with it in the sense that there are far fewer LGBT roles in film than straight/cis, so when there are roles, it can feel like straight/cis actors are dipping into the limited LGBT ones and taking them away from LGBT people in addition to all their own roles. At the same time, acting is acting, and a good actor can be anyone, it's part of their craft. Ehhhh.... head hurts.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yeah. Her role is average here, she does as well with it as she can... her character is very passive for the first half of the season. She's an important character, so it kind of drags the plot unless you are anticipating where her line is going. Again, she's decent with it, the part is just maybe written a bit ploddy.

Completely on a tangent (which could probably deserve its own thread), I find it interesting because I know she's a lesbian but plays straight women in the majority of things I've seen her in -- (this, Juno, probably other stuff).

But there's such a big stink nowadays about having LGBT folks play LGBT characters, rather than having straight/cis actors play them. yet LGBT actors are playing straight/cis characters, and that is what acting is. I have such mixed feelings about that whole discussion. I can agree with it in the sense that there are far fewer LGBT roles in film than straight/cis, so when there are roles, it can feel like straight/cis actors are dipping into the limited LGBT ones and taking them away from LGBT people in addition to all their own roles. At the same time, acting is acting, and a good actor can be anyone, it's part of their craft. Ehhhh.... head hurts.

Can you think of a recent film where this came up? I'm familiar with accusations of white washing, and I can definitely understand why that's a problem, but I can't think of an example of this coming up with regards to LGBT roles. The Imitation Game, maybe?

 

[Totenkindly]

Can you think of a recent film where this came up? I'm familiar with accusations of white washing, and I can definitely understand why that's a problem, but I can't think of an example of this coming up with regards to LGBT roles. The Imitation Game, maybe?

That would be one, and I think I did hear minor rumblings about Cumberbatch being cast.

I think nowadays it's far more about trans roles in cinema and TV -- maybe I'm more aware of it because I am far closer to it, but it's a constant source of complaint and people in the community are always bitching about it, and there's a lot more vocal anti-trans sentiment in politics in the last year, so pressure is building anyway.

There was just a film recently where they were casting Scarlett Johanssen as a transguy and she pulled out of the film within a week after the announcement due to social media campaigning against her being cast and issued an apology. Mostly in the past the trans roles were in the other direction -- they were constantly casting cis male actors to play transwomen (Matt Bomer is the most recent social media debacle but I can't recall the role right now; but a lot of bitching occurred over Eddie Redmayne starring in "The Danish Girl" a few years ago). Few transwomen get cast in transwomen roles, although there's been a handful of notable exceptions in recent years such as the Spanish film "A Beautiful Woman" last year and Laverne Cox on "OITNB" TV series.

(I tend to not care as much if a good actor is doing, well, good acting. Personally I think it's the script that can be more of a problem -- and so that complicates the matter, like when the writers are merely doing tropes and lazy writing that shows they don't really understand LGBT, and then the sexuality/gender of the actor suddenly becomes a flashpoint. I felt that way about "The Danish Girl" -- I thought Eddie Redmayne was fine, he's an Oscar-winning actor for goodness sake, but the script was SO freaking trope-laden and lacking truth in some respects -- and I've read about the people the movie was based on, the film swapped in tropes rather than actually following the historical record. As a counter example, "Call Me By Your Name" last year -- GREAT movie, GREAT script -- didn't it win an Oscar for adapted script? -- but I don't THINK either of the two leads are actually gay? I'd have to look. Pretty sure Armie Hammer isn't. And I did not hear a peep out of anyone.)

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

That would be one, and I think I did hear minor rumblings about Cumberbatch being cast.

I think nowadays it's far more about trans roles in cinema and TV -- maybe I'm more aware of it because I am far closer to it, but it's a constant source of complaint and people in the community are always bitching about it, and there's a lot more vocal anti-trans sentiment in politics in the last year, so pressure is building anyway.

There was just a film recently where they were casting Scarlett Johanssen as a transguy and she pulled out of the film within a week after the announcement due to social media campaigning against her being cast and issued an apology. Mostly in the past the trans roles were in the other direction -- they were constantly casting cis male actors to play transwomen (Matt Bomer is the most recent social media debacle but I can't recall the role right now; but a lot of bitching occurred over Eddie Redmayne starring in "The Danish Girl" a few years ago). Few transwomen get cast in transwomen roles, although there's been a handful of notable exceptions in recent years such as the Spanish film "A Beautiful Woman" last year and Laverne Cox on "OITNB" TV series.

Hmm, well, when I think about it, it does seem like the issue of LGBT representation seems different than a lot of other representation issues. Keep in mind that there's a lot of things I don't know about LGBT issues and that my POV might be ignorant in a lot of ways, but it does seem like it's not comparable to issues with whitewashing or that one movie where Gary Oldman played a dwarf and Peter Dinklage had a supporting role.

I was thinking about why this is, and I thought I'd just throw my theory at there, and feel free to tell me if it's crap.

Basically, it seems to me that it's not that uncommon for LGBT in real life to play roles of a sort. I'm referring to what it's probably like for gay or trans folks who aren't out, of they pass as straight, which isn't uncommon. I think that might have something to do with why it seems different. LGBT identities are harder to pin down, perhaps, as an aspect of social reality. Perhaps because how LGBT individuals "look" can be so different, the issue of representation is less clear-cut.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

(I do hope this side tangent moves to its own thread, because I'm about to contribute to it).

I can remember seeing Harvey Fierstein (Torch Song Trilogy) say in an interview, probably 20 years ago, that he felt any straight person playing a gay role was like black face - that was probably the first time I saw anyone having this opinion. I've long wondered how common an opinion it actually was. I think the next time I heard it expressed (or, a very similar sentiment) was the Scarlet Johansson debacle. I don't remember there being any issue with Priscilla Queen Of the Desert or Transamerica, but then both of those were before the internet was obsequious and it's entirely possible I missed it. The few gay friends I had seemed to revel in Priscilla though, without being offended by it.

Anyway, the thing that occurs to me is that maybe it's just not that easy to find really good actors in the community. I think Laverne Cox is good (in the single role I've seen her play), but I can remember - a couple of years ago - a small video showed up in my FB feed (posted by George Takei) about trans actors wanting roles and someone I knew surfaced in the video. I'd seen this woman in several plays and she's really a shit actor. I remembered thinking that if *she* is considered one of the few pieces of talent that rises to the top of that small pool of trans actors (there were maybe 5 or 6 people in that video), then it's really no wonder they're casting cisgender people for those roles.

That being said though- along a very similar vein - Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote this op-ed for Atlantic about Zoe Zaldana playing Nina Simone: Nina Simone's Face /
The upcoming biopic about the singer proves that the world still isn’t ready to tell her story. They actually added prosthetic pieces to Zaldana's face to make her look more traditionally African American. I thought it was a well written piece, and expressed a lot of the opinions I had about it myself when I'd heard about it. (Although I just really love Nina Simone, so I had a sort of personal investment in seeing a fair and accurate portrayal and it was disappointing to hear it would be Zaldana. I like Zaldana, just not for this role. eta: I guess I could have easily overlooked the fact that Zaldana used prosthetic pieces if she were an amazing actor who could capture Nina Simone's spirit - but that's just not the role I think Zaldana is best at.)