counterphobic

[Z Buck McFate]

For those of you who think all etypes should be considered to have their own counterphobic expression, what does "counterphobic" mean to you? And maybe try to give one or two lines to show how that would play out for each type?

Also, those of you who think counterphobic should really only remain an e6 thing- why?




[Part of the reason for this thread is I'm curious about popular notions of what "counterphobic" means to most people. eta: Also, I've been reading a few descriptions here and there- and I don't really understand it, which is another reason I'm looking to see how others define it.]

 

[HongDou]

Hmm, I think instincts might play a role in this as well. Like how counterphobia is more associated with an sx-dom 6, the so-dom 7 is more about counter-gluttony and sacrifice or the sp-dom 4 is more about enduring and not suffering out loud. I wouldn't necessarily say they're counterphobic like the way 6s are, but I liked them idea of them being called "countertypes."

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Hmm, I think instincts might play a role in this as well. Like how counterphobia is more associated with an sx-dom 6, the so-dom 7 is more about counter-gluttony and sacrifice or the sp-dom 4 is more about enduring and not suffering out loud. I wouldn't necessarily say they're counterphobic like the way 6s are, but I liked them idea of them being called "countertypes."

ooh. yea

 

[Qlip]

Hmm, I think instincts might play a role in this as well. Like how counterphobia is more associated with an sx-dom 6, the so-dom 7 is more about counter-gluttony and sacrifice or the sp-dom 4 is more about enduring and not suffering out loud. I wouldn't necessarily say they're counterphobic like the way 6s are, but I liked them idea of them being called "countertypes."

Yeah, from my reading and my experience of myself, I don't know that there's a such thing as a non-counterwhatever 4 sp/sx type. Seeking the source of suffering is kind of our thing. I suppose if it isn't the root of our main fear, then it really isn't counterphobia, though.

 

[HongDou]

Yeah, from my reading and my experience of myself, I don't know that there's a such thing as a non-counterwhatever 4 sp/sx type. Seeking the source of suffering is kind of our thing. I suppose if it isn't the root of our main fear, then it really isn't counterphobia, though.

It's related to your main fear though so it kinda works. But yeah I agree.

 

[JocktheMotie]

I think Counterphobia as a thing really only exists for 6s due to the specifics of what being a 6 actually entails. For one, 6s are the quintessential phobia type and it is their central problem. We all know of the "fight or flight" response to an impending/unknown threat and this conveniently manifests in the 6 cognitively/behaviorally as phobia(flight) or counterphobia(fight). All enneagram types are effectively coping strategies, it just so happens that 6s have two that make sense in the context of what they're coping with, and that they're effectively different enough to require the distinction in the first place.

 

[Kasper]

Phobic/counter-phobic is a 6 specific thing, and even then all 6s will move between P and CP at different times, the suggestions I've read about people trying to extend that idea to other types is an attempt to force types to fit within a theory rather than a pattern of distinction that actually exists. Take the 9 example as I understand it best, which is supposed to be something like anger v anti-anger (although I have heard other options like anti-sloth).

From Riso and Husdon:

We realized that the types in each Triad are always either going with or against the dominant emotion of the Triad. The idea of a "counter" movement in each type like the "counterphobic" movement in type Six applies not to the Passion (gluttony, pride, vanity, envy, etc.) but to the underlying emotional reaction of each Triad.

Nines are more clearly on the side of suppressing their rage and anger, but there are also Nines who act out rage and can be violent as part of their job or in sports. After suppressing their anger for long periods of time, most Nines eventually have blowups in which they over seemingly insignificant problems. Other Nines will give themselves license to express their anger in seething sarcasm or criticism.

That covers different levels of health of a 9, as well as awareness, wings would also play a role as 8 anger v 1 anger is distinctly different, however it isn't two different types of 9s one anger the other anti-anger, it's just different behavioral outcomes at different times... which effects all 9s. All 9s get angry, few do it when others are around is all so it strikes me as a theory that non-9s would write up about what they see behaviourally in 9s which misses the mark.

The theory is an overreach.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

JocktheMotie's response pretty much sums up how I understood it as well.

There's a weird thing going on with entitlement, too- and instinct variants. I think that a lot of people associate sx variant dominance with having an inflated sense of entitlement. I don't really agree with this. I know the word "entitlement" gets thrown around a bit too much, but I'm not using it with an exclusively negative association here: all people should have some sense of entitlement. Feelings of entitlement fuel people to aggressively pursue what they want- and I see both sp and so instinct variant dominance as being just as capable of aggressively pursuing what they want (it's just that what they want doesn't infringe as directly on other individuals?). And it seems to me- because of this association/stigma interfering with how the variants are usually understood- a person's own sense of entitlement can even make it difficult to determine which instinct variant they actually are. For example- having negative entitlement issues made it difficult for me to realize that sx dominance actually fits me best: I am far more driven to connect with other individuals than I am to create some nest of physical security, yet I don't relate to how sx dominance is typically described.

Also, I can see how inherently 'fight or flight' might seem to reveal a certain sense of entitlement (in that 'flight' suggests a knee-jerk lack of a sense of entitlement, where 'fight' suggests entitlement). Is phobic/counterphobic related to a sense of entitlement? It seems to me like it is*. While it sounds perhaps oversimplified- I can see how being too far on the phobic end of the continuum would be a matter of not having enough of a sense of entitlement, while being too far on the counterphobic end would be too much entitlement.

This sorta raises the question of sx dominant 6s being counterphobic- whether or not that’s true, or if it’s just more mistaking sx dominance with an inflated sense of entitlement.


* I say this keeping in mind what Kasper wrote- and I remember reading it before myself- that an e6 is neither one nor the other exclusively, but tends to vacillate between the two. Point being, there are people who identify as counterphobic that I personally don’t see as having an ‘inflated’ sense of entitlement; it’s only where someone’s counterphobic behavior is especially pronounced (where it wants to make everyone in its path its bitch) that it comes across as having an inflated sense of entitlement.

 

[garbage]

I have no idea what a phobic Four would look like. Their whole thing is rebellion of the norm in favor of uniqueness, no?

 

[Qlip]

I have no idea what a phobic Four would look like. Their whole thing is rebellion of the norm in favor of uniqueness, no?

So by that reasoning, the 4 counter-behaviour would be seeking insignificance. Yeah, that's not going to happen. The closest I get is to seek accessibility, but that in my mind doesn't invalidate my significance.

 

[skylights]

I'm not even sure I like the way counterphobia is used with 6s, much less do I think it should be used with other types. I see in myself vacillation between fight and flight... I am labelled "phobic" because I choose flight more often, but I feel like the two are often intricately wound in one another, and I don't think that if you met me you would really think of me as a "phobic" person. I can be - but I can also be stubborn and outspoken. And that is true even for the most phobic 6 that I know. Sometimes she stands her ground and fights like mad. I think it would be interesting to discuss "countertype expression" across the board, though counterphobia is primarily a 6 thing.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

Any type can be "phobic" or "counterphobic", because those terms simply define how a human being might handle a fear response.

However, only the 6s have a true "phobic" or "counterphobic" orientation as part of their core strategy in coping with life.

Other types may be "countertypes", meaning they move against parts of their own fixation, similar to how counterphobic 6s move against parts of their own fear-and-worry fixation. Head types in particular deal with fear as part of their fixation, so they can take on "counterphobic" overtones as well, especially if 6-winged. It won't manifest as "moving against fear" in the 6ish sense, however, it will manifest as moving against their own core fear (again, I'm talking about the overall strategy, not a temporary fear response).

 

[Galena]

I have no idea what a phobic Four would look like. Their whole thing is rebellion of the norm in favor of uniqueness, no?

I wish I could explain how it works, but it does. It clicks for me, anyhow.