Can someone explain to me why people supported Brexit in the first place?

[Falcarius]

The english.

Falcarius does not know if you have poor geography, poor knowledge or are just racist against English people. But the English cannot make hard border as they have no parliament who can legislate for it. So by simple deduction it can only be Ireland or UK; right?

Again please explain how the EU is going to stop the UK undermining the common market and customs union without a hard border?

Its been good so far, wouldnt you say?

Can tell you dont have any shares or investments.

As it has been explained the UK is still in the EU, so all you are doing is demonstrating why the correct choice was made to leave since the UK doesn't even do that well in the EU apparently according to you, correct?

Cry babies? Here, lets me clear about this, I think the English really SHOULD engage in radical isolationist experiments, they really, really should. It should be carried out in such a way that it does not have terrible consequences for the neighboring nations of Scotland and Ireland.

This thread is not about England. It is about the collective countries as a whole that make up the UK relationship with the EU.

What is your obsession about England?

Burn the witch.

I guess.

What has that got to do with topic?

Look forward to the hard border with Scotland. Gonna be a good day.

If that happens then it happens.

 

[Falcarius]

I'm not bitter.

I'm just a really, really big fan of the English having freedom to go their own way, do their own thing.

Like pursue a TOTAL independence from the rest of the world.

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I'm not bitter.

I'm just a really, really big fan of the English having freedom to go their own way, do their own thing.

Like pursue a TOTAL independence from the rest of the world.

The more radically isolationist and monocultural the better. Like some sort of reservation

Like the freedom to leave the EU?

What has this borderline racism got to do with the topic?

 

[ceecee]

Falcarius believe the in EU's present state it is better not existing at all. But as he mentioned in this thread he likes the idea of the EU of the countries working together but the EU is unreformable. He has nothing personally against the EU; he hopes the EU and UK have a much better relationship where they are not stepping on each others toes and using each other as a excuse for inaction. He think if Brexit actually happens, a major country leaving the EU will be a wake-up call to the leaders in the EU need and jolt the organisation in deep reflection.


Also maybe Falcarius is unique but he generally wants the best for everyone in the world be it the UK, EU, China, USA, Russia or anywhere else. Do you not want the best for Canada and Mexico as your closest neighbours?

Again, probably for the third or fourth time, I'm good launching any and all neoliberal organizations like the EU into the sun. But, you have no plan, no structure or strategy of how you will go about filling that vacuum once its gone.

Which is a bit strange since this should have happened before the vote. The idea of zero plan, just leave leads me to believe it has nefarious ends. Couple that with seriously questionable individuals (before you get on your high horse, we aren't talking about the US at the moment) as your PM and head of the Brexit Party. You post all kinds of percentage points and statistics about how people voted for it but I have yet to hear what your plans are post leaving. Let alone your plans for if it fails. Winging it isn't an option here.

You should stop using the term "crybabies". People have seriously valid concerns and you should hear them out.

 

[Lark]

Like the freedom to leave the EU?

What has this borderline racism got to do with the topic?

Why do you hate England so much?

They should be free to cut themselves of entirely from the rest of the world if they want.

 

[Lark]

Falcarius does not know if you have poor geography, poor knowledge or are just racist against English people. But the English cannot make hard border as they have no parliament who can legislate for it. So by simple deduction it can only be Ireland or UK; right?

Again please explain how the EU is going to stop the UK undermining the common market and customs union without a hard border?





As it has been explained the UK is still in the EU, so all you are doing is demonstrating why the correct choice was made to leave since the UK doesn't even do that well in the EU apparently according to you, correct?

This thread is not about England. It is about the collective countries as a whole that make up the UK relationship with the EU.

What is your obsession about England?






What has that got to do with topic?



If that happens then it happens.

England voted to leave the European Union.

Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain.

You can check the votes if you like.

 

[Lark]

Again, probably for the third or fourth time, I'm good launching any and all neoliberal organizations like the EU into the sun. But, you have no plan, no structure or strategy of how you will go about filling that vacuum once its gone.

Which is a bit strange since this should have happened before the vote. The idea of zero plan, just leave leads me to believe it has nefarious ends. Couple that with seriously questionable individuals (before you get on your high horse, we aren't talking about the US at the moment) as your PM and head of the Brexit Party. You post all kinds of percentage points and statistics about how people voted for it but I have yet to hear what your plans are post leaving. Let alone your plans for if it fails. Winging it isn't an option here.

You should stop using the term "crybabies". People have seriously valid concerns and you should hear them out.

The irony is that if you do a careful reading of the rhetoric of brexit supporters, even the vagaries about freedom in this thread, no one supporting brexit is leaving the EU because its neo-liberal but not neo-liberal enough for their liking.

If any vision what so ever of post-Brexit UK exists its a much, much, much more neo-liberal place, has no NHS (or its under American ownership), no immigration and experiences all the economic supply shocks associated with something like that (which neo-liberalism has zero answers for).

 

[Falcarius]

Again, probably for the third or fourth time, I'm good launching any and all neoliberal organizations like the EU into the sun. But, you have no plan, no structure or strategy of how you will go about filling that vacuum once its gone.

If Falcarius became PM when Theresa May did he would have done the following:

1) He would have have listened to how the people wanted to leave by have a mass consultation about how to leave.

2) Proposed a Norway Option v Canada Style Free Trade Deal V No Deal on World Trade Organization tariffs referendum. Vote and hope to call referendum on how to leave was supported by rest of parliament. Not campaigned on any option by said his personal one was an enhanced Canada Style Agreement which is pretty much May's deal and asked the country to make its own mind up.

3) He would have acted on result by triggering article 50 and explaining the government intention of pursuing what option won in letter triggering article 50 to EU

4)If no deal won he would have used the 2 year notice period to plan for no deal

OR

4) Negotiated withdrew agreement and transition deal with EU along with other party leader in House of Commons, before Canada or Norway Option took place after the 2 year notice period

5) Left EU, on Canada or Norway Option or No Deal.

Which is a bit strange since this should have happened before the vote. The idea of zero plan, just leave leads me to believe it has nefarious ends. Couple that with seriously questionable individuals (before you get on your high horse, we aren't talking about the US at the moment) as your PM and head of the Brexit Party. You post all kinds of percentage points and statistics about how people voted for it but I have yet to hear what your plans are post leaving. Let alone your plans for if it fails. Winging it isn't an option here.

You should stop using the term "crybabies". People have seriously valid concerns and you should hear them out.

You are correct it should have happened before referendum but it was both sides who failed quite frankly to have an honest debate on the subject.

Falcarius did not vote at the last General Election for Mr. Johnson's party the Conservatives so it is disingenuous to call Johnson his PM.

See below comments above and earlier below:

Falcarius would actually thinks the UK should leave on modified version of Theresa May's deal. If he was a MP I would have voted for it all 3 times as his main concern was the EU may use the backstop to keep the UK in by the backdoor; the withdrew agreement needs reworking.

He thinks there should be another referendum on what kind of Brexit as they country voted to leave but not how to leave – Norway Option v May Deal V No Deal. He would vote for Theresa May's deal. If the country voted for Norway deal which he personal think is the worst possible deal then he would accept that.

Falcarius is happy to consider everyone's opinion even those he thinks are "crybabies". As above Falcarius would have listened to how the majority wanted to leave the EU and asked their opinion of future relationship and would have acted on it if he was PM. Falcarius thinks both May and Johnson were wrong not to given second referendum how to leave nor does he actually it think it was appropriate to use prorogation.

 

[Andy]

Again, probably for the third or fourth time, I'm good launching any and all neoliberal organizations like the EU into the sun. But, you have no plan, no structure or strategy of how you will go about filling that vacuum once its gone.

Which is a bit strange since this should have happened before the vote. The idea of zero plan, just leave leads me to believe it has nefarious ends. Couple that with seriously questionable individuals (before you get on your high horse, we aren't talking about the US at the moment) as your PM and head of the Brexit Party. You post all kinds of percentage points and statistics about how people voted for it but I have yet to hear what your plans are post leaving. Let alone your plans for if it fails. Winging it isn't an option here.

You should stop using the term "crybabies". People have seriously valid concerns and you should hear them out.

I think the lack of plan has less to do with malice than it does incompetence. I don't think David Cameron every really thought the referendum result would go the way it did. There was no cohesive group of Leave supporters before hand, nobody with an concise vision of what would happen afterwards, just a group of people who agreed an a general idea but not the details. And that hasn't changed. It's just people screaming at each other and using every legal twiddle they can find to get what they want.

In the end, I think no deal is the most likely outcome because it doesn't require anyone to agree to anything, which is a major advantage in the current political crisis.

 

[Falcarius]

There is going to be a vote this evening about giving parliament control of asking EU extension (around 9PM UK time to about 11PM at latest depending on length of debate). Johnson said he would deselect any Conservative from standing for his party in next election. already Justine Greening said she is standing down which is significant as not only does shows how strong the opposition within the Conservatives but she is also a big-hitter in the party in that she has had about 5 cabinet positions.

The government seems to have all but accepted that it will lose the vote as it is not even bothering to whip its own members and there seems to be lots of opposition on social media from Conservatives MPs. Johnson said he wants to have an election on 10th October if he loses the date (a bit of an awkward date if one is Jewish) but he needs to get 2/3 of MPs to support him. The problem is Labour are divided to support since lots of Labour MPs are concerned they are going to lose seats if the polls are correct (which is not clear considering recent polling mistakes), and they will be trapped behind pro-Remain Liberal Democrats and the Brexit-supporting Conservatives in an election fought mainly on the outcome of Brexit. It is not clear what the House of Lords will do if the government lost vote on parliament taking control on asking for EU extension, as they could delay legislation by using filibustering tactics to delay legislation being passed as the Lords if much more pro-Brexit compared to Commons.

It will be interesting if Johnson triggers a no-confidence vote in himself as that is a high stakes way to force an election. He could get all his party to vote against him in theory (which would be bizarre in normal circumstances) and force an election as he only needs a majority. He and Corbyn would have two weeks to force to prove they have confidence of the House of Commons which neither could do therefore an election would be triggered automatically in 6 weeks which would be a couple of days before current leave date for the UK. There is also the very unlikely circumstance Corbyn or another anti-hard-Brexit may have support of the House of Commons and become PM.

 

[Lark]

Doctor who helped write the Yellow Hammer report for the Brexiteers outlining potential problems with supply of medicines was on the BBC this morning and described a very concerning situation with a shortage in "second line medications", which would lead to a situation in which there is ample supply for presenting problems but underlying problems are likely to get worse and cause death.

The guy got very angry when he was attacked for being biased and said that he wasnt going to settle for his integrity being attacked like that as he was a professional consult and not a pundit.

I got to say I really liked the guy. It wasnt a full on exposure of the ideologues in the current UK conservative party plotting some sort of Malthusian cull but it was close enough.

 

[Lark]

There is going to be a vote this evening about giving parliament control of asking EU extension (around 9PM UK time to about 11PM at latest depending on length of debate). Johnson said he would deselect any Conservative from standing for his party in next election. already Justine Greening said she is standing down which is significant as not only does shows how strong the opposition within the Conservatives but she is also a big-hitter in the party in that she has had about 5 cabinet positions.

The government seems to have all but accepted that it will lose the vote as it is not even bothering to whip its own members and there seems to be lots of opposition on social media from Conservatives MPs. Johnson said he wants to have an election on 10th October if he loses the date (a bit of an awkward date if one is Jewish) but he needs to get 2/3 of MPs to support him. The problem is Labour are divided to support since lots of Labour MPs are concerned they are going to lose seats if the polls are correct (which is not clear considering recent polling mistakes), and they will be trapped behind pro-Remain Liberal Democrats and the Brexit-supporting Conservatives in an election fought mainly on the outcome of Brexit. It is not clear what the House of Lords will do if the government lost vote on parliament taking control on asking for EU extension, as they could delay legislation by using filibustering tactics to delay legislation being passed as the Lords if much more pro-Brexit compared to Commons.

It will be interesting if Johnson triggers a no-confidence vote in himself as that is a high stakes way to force an election. He could get all his party to vote against him in theory (which would be bizarre in normal circumstances) and force an election as he only needs a majority. He and Corbyn would have two weeks to force to prove they have confidence of the House of Commons which neither could do therefore an election would be triggered automatically in 6 weeks which would be a couple of days before current leave date for the UK. There is also the very unlikely circumstance Corbyn or another anti-hard-Brexit may have support of the House of Commons and become PM.

I think that Corbyn would win a majority easily at the moment, although I also think that a lot of trends within the UK, including some of how Brexit was conceived and exploited, has all been about the UK conservative being terrified of an old style Labour government (which they think Corbyn could be).

Although some of what Tony Blair had to say was interesting too about how a no confidence vote triggering a general election was likely to be a trap, so long as it will just serve to take the UK past the deadline without an extension, ie achieving no deal by default rather than design.

 

[Falcarius]

I think that Corbyn would win a majority easily at the moment, although I also think that a lot of trends within the UK, including some of how Brexit was conceived and exploited, has all been about the UK conservative being terrified of an old style Labour government (which they think Corbyn could be).

Although some of what Tony Blair had to say was interesting too about how a no confidence vote triggering a general election was likely to be a trap, so long as it will just serve to take the UK past the deadline without an extension, ie achieving no deal by default rather than design.

If someone is pro-EU why would they vote for the Labour Party which has been wishy-washy when they could vote Lib Dems?

Edit:

In a normal election you are probably right regarding Labour winning but it would not be a normal election so it is doubtful as they are splitting their support over Brexit.

 

[Falcarius]

Conservative MP Philip Lee has defected to the Liberal Democrats. His defection means that Boris Johnson no longer has a working majority in the Commons. Liberal Democrats are now on 15 MP. General election is evermore likely.

 

[cacaia]

You can't pinpoint since it is the mix of: anti-immigration, nationalism, misinformation, various influences, grass is greener elsewhere .....


However I will also dare to say "which people" regarding the title. For many years MPs in EU parliament say stuff like "Just leave already", many countries/people in Europe want this because mess in UK works for them (especially since they are hopping that their people/experts will go back) or they simply want more unified EU, globally many like Brexit since it creates much clearer border between EU and English speaking world. What leaves a mark on the whole process. The narrative that only Brits are pro Brexit is wrong way to look at this issue.

Well explained. Though it is still quite as baffling as Trump's victory was here in US soil.

 

[Lark]

If someone is pro-EU why would they vote for the Labour Party which has been wishy-washy when they could vote Lib Dems?

Edit:

In a normal election you are probably right regarding Labour winning but it would not be a normal election so it is doubtful as they are splitting their support over Brexit.

The Tories are terrified of years of austerity dividing the nation along lines of social class and therefore the Corbyn of their nightmares appealing to the majority of under privileged they created.

They attempted to recast the shape of politics and cultural divides in the UK, along nationalist lines, the BBC has repeated the propaganda that the country is not divided along politically left and politically right lines but pro and contra brexit ad infinitum, because the BBC is state media and either pro-Tory, as they are the current state, or they are terrified of privatization, but it hasnt worked and people are getting tired of it.

So the establishment is trying plan B, if Tory nationalism will fail they will try Lib Dem pseudo-internationalism, so long as its Brexit, its not the social class divide. Its not anything that will threaten further and deepening austerity.

All these attempts to recast politics and engineer divides which are greater than the money divide will only work for so long, they are ruses, but they cant last. If it wasnt for the media's willful reluctance to engage in any sort of analysis and then broadcast it in understandable, interesting ways it would not be working already. And it barely is.

I'm still predicting a Corbyn win, any time he chooses to contest an election, although I'm also predicting some sort of sabotage, like the Americans wrecking ecological and structural havock on Vietnam to prevent it ever being an example within the region/territory to any other nation.

 

[Lark]

Conservative MP Philip Lee has defected to the Liberal Democrats. His defection means that Boris Johnson no longer has a working majority in the Commons. Liberal Democrats are now on 15 MP. General election is evermore likely.

He seems like a pretty principled guy, at least he was trying to portray himself as being moved by conviction politics rather than the ideology he thinks has overtaken the conservative party, he was predicting that the liberals could be the main beneficiaries of the demise of the UK conservative party.

That's probably true since that party, the liberals, has been moving to the right wing even before Clegg betrayed all supporters and the students to go into coalition government with the conservatives, I'll never forget his "I'm a politician... what do you expect" speech, even if they tried very, very hard to purge it from the BBC archives.

 

[Lark]

Well explained. Though it is still quite as baffling as Trump's victory was here in US soil.

I dont think its all that baffling, people are rationalizing more than they are reasoning, driven by strong affects and deciding afterwards why.

In other words emotional strings, easily pulled.

It happens on both the left and the right these days, I think all examples of it are despicable but the extremes of all quarters think they've got the truth, exclusive access to the truth, and everyone else is kidding themselves but them.

 

[The Cat]

Irony.

 

[Falcarius]

... I'll never forget his "I'm a politician... what do you expect" speech, even if they tried very, very hard to purge it from the BBC archives.

Falcarius does not remember that: do you have a link?

 

[Lark]

Falcarius does not remember that: do you have a link?

I've searched for it on youtube or other sources multiple times, this is one episode which WAS actually disappeared by the BBC and there was something of a blackout on it.

I know that because subsequent to the great purge of it all it appeared on Have I Got News For You and they talked about it but it was a much, much shortened clip and it may even have been in a Have I Got A Bit More News For You as opposed to the regular show, ie it was additional material.

Clegg was confronted by students protesting the conservative price hikes in tuition fees etc. which the libdems had been precise in promising to over turn, he laughed at them and told them he was a politician, what did you expect? I will never forget it because he was so, so bold and arrogant, it went beyond political arrogance at that point, to something that seemed really like a con artist gloating.

It should have been the death of the liberal democratic party and I'm actually pretty annoyed at how short peoples memories are that this party has been capable of making a come back as it has and how it has. Especially given that Clegg is still there.