Better Call Saul (spoilers)

[ceecee]

You don't need to know anything about Breaking Bad, although there's a lot of mini-easter eggs if you do recognize people or places. That's the beauty of the show, it's a prequel that works in itself.

For sure. It's a fantastic stand alone series although I think it's difficult not to know at least some things from BB at this point, even if you never watched the show.

 

[Totenkindly]

wonder how the portrayals of mike and saul in BB will feel different going into it after seeing BCS. Learning about Mike's personal sense of ethics and the way he treats his job as just that, a job in a larger enterprise and world--this makes his later distrust and dislike for Walt all the more understandable. His relationship with Nacho also makes his later relationship with Jesse a lot more understandable.

And of course Chuck's relationship with Jimmy. Chuck comes to represent everyone who has held him back or mocked his abilities as a lawyer. What's great, he's probably a better lawyer than Chuck. Or at least it comes more naturally. Chuck is like a virtuoso who has trained on an instrument since the age of 4. He certainly has some raw talent, but he has honed it and much of his success is simply due to hard work. Here comes his younger sibling, who isn't as practiced in music, yet he is able to pick up an instrument and learn it with relative ease and speed. He may not be quite as technically proficient as Chuck, and on top of that he doesn't always follow traditional technique, but who wouldn't feel threatened and jealous of someone with possibly greater potential and talent--I see a bit of a Mozart Salieri dynamic with these two. Chuck sees Jimmy rising in a fraction of the time he took. He assumed shortcuts, and while this is partly true of Jimmy, a lot of his early success in the series can simply be attributed to hard work and a natural ability to smooth talk with clients and authority figure types. Fuck Chuck

Jimmy and Chuck are both good lawyers, just suitable for different kinds of work. Jimmy is not a pristine by the book anal-retentive corporate lawyer; you are basically getting rigidly conscientious approach vs a fly-by-seat-of-pants flexible/pragmatic approach. Chuck ironically is the one who doesn't have room for Jimmy in his definition of lawyer, his rigid E1 moralistic and judgmental attitudes only allow for lawyers that prescribe to his own personal rules.

Jimmy is more inventive, innovative, and creative. Yes, I agree Chuck is threatened on SOME level by Jimmy, which he rationalizes by labeling Jimmy as dangerous, uncontrolled, and unpredictable, liable to tarnish the pristine goodness of justice as an abstraction. Not all of this is Chuck, though; he is driven by his own memories of Jimmy as cutting corners and even potentially scamming their parents -- it's a classic case of "eldest doing the right thing and adhering to the rules, while the younger child gets away with murder and is more beloved" syndrome, exemplified in the Prodigal Son parable. I mean, obviously my sympathies are more with Jimmy and I never got to a place where I loved Chuck, but I would waver between hating him and feeling sorry for him, if you can make it through the first three seasons and then also the opening to "Winner" the Season 4 finale, which is just a heartbreaking opening and recollection of better times past.

But basically where Jimmy ends up on Breaking Bad is boiling down to two personal arcs: His relationship with Chuck, and his relationship with Kim. We know what happens between him and Chuck now, while we're still waiting for the ominous resolution with Kim that leaves him so jaded and resigned to his sketchy nature in BB. Even into Season 6, despite some traumatic experiences, Jimmy still cares about things and seems happy on some level, but that will soon all be gone.

I watched the first episode and I did find it very amusing. I think the more comedic tone is more my style. I also thought it was interesting that even though he's a con artist he seems to have genuine affection and concern for his uncle/cousin who founded that law firm.

Just like with Breaking Bad, the show quickly gets more nuanced and stabilizes. Not that it isn't funny -- i think it's a funnier show than BB and there's some really great, humorous montage work -- but it really beautifully balances humor, zaniness, and seriousness. It's a show that typically makes you laugh one minute and want to cry the next. In fact, sometimes I've wanted to both laugh and cry at once.

I think the parking attendant at the courthouse where he worked as a public defender is a character from Breaking Bad, right? The actor was also in season 5 of Community ( which I thought was way better than Season 4 if not as good as season 3).

Uh, yes -- Mike is the other main character from Breaking Bad who we see his entire pre-BB arc develop, and it all tracks with how Mike ended up working for Gus and seems satisfied/resigned to that role in life. If you felt like Mike got short-shifted in BB, this series will satisfy that itch and help you understand Mike about as deeply as you ever could. He is basically a damned soul who has found peace in accepting his fate, using what resources he gains from that to help the people he owes and the people he loves.

Jonathan Banks is simply amazing, he can do so much with so little. It's funny how he and Bob Odenkirk have almost completely opposite characters to play, yet their two stories all dovetail quite nicely.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Kim is all business. I find that kind of sexy. Kim is certainly physically attractive but not my usual type. There’s something really hot about IxTJ ladies and their conservative, nerdy mannerisms. I’d watch The Thing with Kim. She’s smart but has a fun, silly side too. Double score, and no wonder Jimmy is into her.

Is that the woman he bummed the smoke from in the pilot?

 

[Totenkindly]

When they first introduced Mike in BB, I didn’t like him. It’s clever how they

sort of used his developing relationship with Jesse to build sympathy for him. This all happens as we simultaneously gradually grow to distrust Walt and see his relationship with Jesse crumble. Mike essentially came to replace Walt as Jesse’s surrogate father/mentor. His death is one of the saddest of BB. It makes it really bittersweet watching him in BCS, and learning about what drives him, knowing he will meet his demise the way he does. BCS viewers who haven’t seen BB are kind of lucky. The happiest moments of this show all carry a bittersweet undertone. Last tv show that felt this way for me was the final few episodes of Clone Wars

still not sure how far you have gotten, but there is definitely a relationship in BCS for Mike that deepens the whole thing with Jesse in BB. It's kind of the beauty of the show, that it doesn't detract from BB but actually adds more nuance and depth to what you've seen before -- it'll be interesting to rewatch BB with this newfound knowledge in mind.

Kim is all business. I find that kind of sexy. Kim is certainly physically attractive but not my usual type. There’s something really hot about IxTJ ladies and their conservative, nerdy mannerisms. I’d watch The Thing with Kim. She’s smart but has a fun, silly side too. Double score, and no wonder Jimmy is into her.

I find their relationship fascinating. There are definitely depths to Kim that aren't obvious in Season 1, there are even surprising things about her into Season 6 and we are still learning about her. It's really cool to try to grasp her fierce devotion to Jimmy despite any frustrations she might have with him at times -- they are very different personalities but kindred spirits in some ways -- and it sort of becomes more clear as the series progresses.

 

[Totenkindly]

Is that the woman he bummed the smoke from in the pilot?

Yeah, that's Kim -- my avatar btw.

 

[Totenkindly]

The kettlemans are among my favorite comedy relief villains.

 

[Totenkindly]

Some really terrible fan theories....

 

[ceecee]

Didn't really love this episode but I think it's to tee up what's coming. Nice to see Lalo though.

 

[Totenkindly]

Didn't really love this episode but I think it's to tee up what's coming. Nice to see Lalo though.

Yeah I'm having more mixed feelings about this episode. However, darn, I was really agitated in the last twenty minutes and yelling at the TV -- like, do NOT take things in that direction. It just would have made me angry.

The whole center sequence with Howard was kind of amusing, I guess.

I do love seeing Francesca.

 

[Totenkindly]

As an audience member, I don't think I've ever turned against Jimmy and generally just see him as making some understandable but unwise decisions with unexpected consequences.

Very general clarification here:

I understand why he is where he is, and while he makes a bold decision at the end of Season 4 that is somewhat shocking, it still tends to play out as him more just being too cavalier and not upholding firm boundaries professionally, which leads him into getting dragged into things he didn't anticipate or really understand the ramifications of. It's still rather a tragedy to watch what happens to him in Season 5, and in Season 6 he seems oddly reluctant at times to persist in certain matters / isn't necessarily the driving force.

Two more episodes until the mid-season break!

 

[Totenkindly]

all caught up. so i started breaking bad over last night. will probably be done with that and el camino by the time saul concludes

One thing I am confused about, but maybe they will explain this in a later BB episode--when we meet Krazy 8 in BB he is a rival dealer to the Salamancas, but in BCS he is working for them. I am just hoping they explain this before BCS ends, since they have so far done a good job of resolving loose threads and not contradicting established lore.

yeah they are usually really tight with the story details. The wiki for Krazy 8 actually takes that into account if you go down to the Breaking Bad section for him, it is assumed he at some point broke off to go on his own. Did you pick up the nickname acquisition from Lalo?

Krazy-8

Domingo Gallardo Molina, commonly known by his business moniker Krazy-8, is a drug dealer, meth distributor, and informant to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). He originally worked for the Cartel, but later became a solo drug dealer and manufacturer, becoming associated with Jesse...

breakingbad.fandom.com

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, not really as interesting in Season 6 so far compared to other season, it might be because it's had to shift into resolution mode and just hard cap some plotlines and arcs due to the series endings. I still really enjoy character building moments:

1. Kim's childhood. I can identify with some of it as the child of an alcoholic parent -- wanting to excel and please and "be good" while at the same time realizing I had to be entirely self-reliant and untethered to the unreasonable demands of parents. This also can lead to learning to cut corners and doing one's own thing regardless of how it conforms to the views of authority.

2. screw this show for making me feel bad for Howard. That whole cappucino bit with him trying to connect or at least close some distance with his separated wife was heart-breaking. I also still haven't figured out whether he's going to be a victim in this scam or rise to the occasion.

3. Nice comparison between said cappucino meticulously crafted by a corporate lawyer vs the cheap-o coffee cup dispenser for the lawyers working minimum wage.

4. Another crazy moment is seeing Francesca's slow fall into bitterness. She does such a remarkable job fixing up Jimmy's office, only to watch the rubbish clientele treat her efforts with disdain (rubbing cigarettes into the armrests, pissing in the serenity fontain). She is also treated brusquely by Jimmy, until she eventually tells him to shove off. You can see her resentment building.

5. Lalo is such a jerk. You know, maybe these guys would have actually been happy to fill him in about Gus (since he offed their beloved boss) if he had just asked, instead of being a psycho asshat.

6. I still don't have a clear sense abut their plot against Howard, although more pieces came into focus this time around. It sounds multi-layered and like in Inception involves letting the target know they are being scammed so they become part of the scam. It's hard to tell which things are purposeful and which things Howard is actually derailing.

7. Whatever Jimmy's problems are, he's REALLY great at risk management during his scams. He just can sniff out a flaw or risk he doesn't want to take and bails when needed. This is part of active streetcraft, it's one of his talents. Kim is a more logical thinker, less from the gut, and trusts that her smarts can let her work something through sheer force of will. I fear this is going to fail her. But I guess we are seeing what she wants more badly -- that charity position or the sandpiper resolution / Howard's fall. Yes, we are seeing the vacuum guy's card, did she bail? But it feels so much more ominous, esp with the axe splitting.

8. The bit with Mike saddens me and makes me more angry with Walt. Walt is such a jackass. Mike did not deserve to get shot wildly in the stomach and die, and then get dumped into a plastic drum to be dissolved and discarded. When Mike says what he is doing was for his family, watching scenes like this reminds you that he's being honest. He has accepted his own damnation and is just doing what he can for his DIL and granddaughter in the time he has left. for whatever wrong things he's done, he's tried to be professional and always passed on what he had to his loved ones. Walt was always so damned self-centered and ridiculous; it's like no one else really existed in his myopic world.

 

[ceecee]

I liked this episode better than the last.

Lalo: I do believe he has a punctured lung though.
Kim: Is she really blowing her dream opportunity to destroy Howard? Who I kind of feel sorry for after that scene with his wife (nice coffee art too).
Francesca: That waiting room....
The guy peeing in the water feature, the sadness of Mike having to watch with binoculars and talk on the phone while his granddaughter looks at the stars, Caldera with the black book (which was put in a box at the very beginning of the season so Jimmy gets it at some point)...I think everything from this point on is inescapable for everyone.

 

[Totenkindly]

Black book xlation?

https://www.reddit.com/r/betterCallSaul/comments/ub1qda

 

[Totenkindly]

Wow.

Well, thoughts on everything:

I'm not sure what the law firm should be called anymore, with all of its founders dead. Old Hamlin was gone before the series started, and now both Howard and Chuck are gone. Jimmy also has indirectly been involved in the death of two high-end lawyers now, he has helped ruin HHM. I guess he could have the McGill name back.

Howard was a character who at times (esp in Season 1) i was really annoyed by, but as unfolded over time, he actually proved himself to be pretty smart and have more depth. He often tried to do the right thing, even if he made mistakes over what the right thing was or how he tried to do it. He did what he saw was best for the firm versus more selfish motives. He took the rap for Chuck for awhile where Jimmy was concerned but tried to steer Chuck away from his extreme approaches. He tries to be kind/mentor-ish to the intern. You could feel bad for him and some of his grievances in the mid-finale were honest ones. He was stuck in a dying marriage where he tried to be civil and kind but just got nothing back. He's kind of a throwback to a way of doing things that no longer exists, and he didn't really know how to operate outside those rules. At the same time, I would consider Cliff Main the more compassionate lawyer of the two of them, since Hamlin would still competitive, would take you for whatever he could "within the rules," and was still kind of flaky, rich, and above others in terms of his clientele and who he was willing to help. still one of the 1%. But in his favor he did figure out the Jimmy and Kim game -- just a few minutes too late. It's too bad he sounded crazy when relaying it.

I'm not sure what Lalo's game is. He sounded like he was going to take down the laundromat until he realized Fring had bugged the phones. Now what's his play exactly that he needs Jimmy's help for?

A lot of what Howard said was actually correct. Jimmy and Kim did get off on what they were doing. Howard didn't necessarily deserve the extent of their abuse. Jimmy did it for the thrill and also as some kind of revenge, it feels like, because he's always been the little guy and sees Howard as indicative of the big guy. We're still learning why Kim does it; it does seem on some level she's hated it when she's been underestimated or treated as less than autonomous by Howard. She also wants to help the elderly clients, but there is a grim satisfaction. I'm not quite sure how to say it, because Jimmy does take things personally and personally wants to see Howard knocked down a bit; yet there's also some kind of gamemanship to it that makes it less personal. Meanwhile Kim is more impersonal in general but i still get the feeling she really despised Howard and had to bring him down in some way. It's hard to put into words.

The episode had some funny speeches in it. Jimmy was downright inspirational to get his lead actor recommitted. His lead director had a great speech to his college students.

Cliff Mains seems to be a pretty ISxJ lawyer. Pretty low-key, quiet, stable, self-controlled, cares quietly about civil causes, practical, not really into these whimsical tales of conspiracy, and not even knowing what to make of them. Risk adverse, he immediately settles for the best-case scenario rather than trying to continue with the case as a hail mary. Aghast at Howard's potential issues. He was flabbergasted at Jimmy's behavior earlier. Whereas Howard was able to figure out Jimmy's plan very quickly after the fact, Cliff kind of says, "I'm not sure, and you might be right, but does it matter? We just have to think about our clients."

 

[ceecee]

Wow.

Well, thoughts on everything:

I'm not sure what the law firm should be called anymore, with all of its founders dead. Old Hamlin was gone before the series started, and now both Howard and Chuck are gone. Jimmy also has indirectly been involved in the death of two high-end lawyers now, he has helped ruin HHM. I guess he could have the McGill name back.

Howard was a character who at times (esp in Season 1) i was really annoyed by, but as unfolded over time, he actually proved himself to be pretty smart and have more depth. He often tried to do the right thing, even if he made mistakes over what the right thing was or how he tried to do it. He did what he saw was best for the firm versus more selfish motives. He took the rap for Chuck for awhile where Jimmy was concerned but tried to steer Chuck away from his extreme approaches. He tries to be kind/mentor-ish to the intern. You could feel bad for him and some of his grievances in the mid-finale were honest ones. He was stuck in a dying marriage where he tried to be civil and kind but just got nothing back. He's kind of a throwback to a way of doing things that no longer exists, and he didn't really know how to operate outside those rules. At the same time, I would consider Cliff Main the more compassionate lawyer of the two of them, since Hamlin would still competitive, would take you for whatever he could "within the rules," and was still kind of flaky, rich, and above others in terms of his clientele and who he was willing to help. still one of the 1%. But in his favor he did figure out the Jimmy and Kim game -- just a few minutes too late. It's too bad he sounded crazy when relaying it.

I'm not sure what Lalo's game is. He sounded like he was going to take down the laundromat until he realized Fring had bugged the phones. Now what's his play exactly that he needs Jimmy's help for?

A lot of what Howard said was actually correct. Jimmy and Kim did get off on what they were doing. Howard didn't necessarily deserve the extent of their abuse. Jimmy did it for the thrill and also as some kind of revenge, it feels like, because he's always been the little guy and sees Howard as indicative of the big guy. We're still learning why Kim does it; it does seem on some level she's hated it when she's been underestimated or treated as less than autonomous by Howard. She also wants to help the elderly clients, but there is a grim satisfaction. I'm not quite sure how to say it, because Jimmy does take things personally and personally wants to see Howard knocked down a bit; yet there's also some kind of gamemanship to it that makes it less personal. Meanwhile Kim is more impersonal in general but i still get the feeling she really despised Howard and had to bring him down in some way. It's hard to put into words.

The episode had some funny speeches in it. Jimmy was downright inspirational to get his lead actor recommitted. His lead director had a great speech to his college students.

Cliff Mains seems to be a pretty ISxJ lawyer. Pretty low-key, quiet, stable, self-controlled, cares quietly about civil causes, practical, not really into these whimsical tales of conspiracy, and not even knowing what to make of them. Risk adverse, he immediately settles for the best-case scenario rather than trying to continue with the case as a hail mary. Aghast at Howard's potential issues. He was flabbergasted at Jimmy's behavior earlier. Whereas Howard was able to figure out Jimmy's plan very quickly after the fact, Cliff kind of says, "I'm not sure, and you might be right, but does it matter? We just have to think about our clients."

At the end of the episode, all I could think of was the question that Kim asked Jimmy a few episodes back - "Are we wicked"?

I still don't think Howard completely deserved what all happened (although no lies detected at Kim and Jimmy's apartment, he was right about it all). Did he deserve to get capped by Lalo? No but I have noticed Lalo has some clarity into who deserves to die (human traffickers) and who doesn't (the humans being trafficked). Not sure what Lalo's game is either or why he needed to talk to Jimmy at all although he was very happy to see Mike lol.

I totally agree about Cliff. He is more concerned about having to explain to the board about Howard than backlash from the Sandpiper residents when he gets them a more shitty deal than what Howard probably would have gotten for them. Great episode.

 

[Totenkindly]

interview with Rhea Seehorn:

‘Better Call Saul’s Rhea Seehorn On (SPOILER) Death In Tonight’s Last Ever Mid-Season Finale, Possible Kim Wexler Spinoff, & Keeping Secrets

SPOILER ALERT: This article contains details of tonight’s Better Call Saul 6A finale. EXCLUSIVE: “I mean, we lived together for the majority of the season, and he is absolutely my big brother.” Better Call Saul’s Rhea Seehorn says of co-star Patrick Fabian after his Howard Hamlin character met a...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

El Camino was good. Really good. I'd rank it next to the best BB and Saul episodes--I almost wish they had turned this into a limited series (sort of a de facto sixth season of BB), but I think it worked well in a 2 hour timespan. It had the feel and vibe of a BB episode while also being its own animal. Jesse deserved a proper ending to his saga. A bittersweet ending, but happy by BB universe standards. I got a little emotional when they flashed back to Mike. The use of flashbacks to frame "present" events was masterful, and helped connect it to the greater BCS/BB tapestry. Jesse Plemons as Todd was just.... *shudder*

I was sad when they showed Mike and Jane. I wonder what Jesse said to Brock in his letter?

So Saul/Jimmy/Gene and Jesse are now the sole survivors of Walt's meth empire (unless you count Badger and Skinny Pete, which I don't). Just a prediction but I think Saul will get an ending somewhere between Walt's and Jesse's in terms of happy endings. He will survive but I can very well see him ending up in prison.

Next to "Crystal Blue Persuasion", that end credits song is probably my favorite use of licensed music in this universe. The lyrics are on point and the music fits the bittersweet vibe of the ending.

sorry if i posted this in the wrong thread. will delete if an issue

 

[Totenkindly]

El Camino was good. Really good. I'd rank it next to the best BB and Saul episodes--I almost wish they had turned this into a limited series (sort of a de facto sixth season of BB), but I think it worked well in a 2 hour timespan. It had the feel and vibe of a BB episode while also being its own animal. Jesse deserved a proper ending to his saga. A bittersweet ending, but happy by BB universe standards. I got a little emotional when they flashed back to Mike. The use of flashbacks to frame "present" events was masterful, and helped connect it to the greater BCS/BB tapestry. Jesse Plemons as Todd was just.... *shudder*

I was sad when they showed Mike and Jane. I wonder what Jesse said to Brock in his letter?

So Saul/Jimmy/Gene and Jesse are now the sole survivors of Walt's meth empire (unless you count Badger and Skinny Pete, which I don't). Just a prediction but I think Saul will get an ending somewhere between Walt's and Jesse's in terms of happy endings. He will survive but I can very well see him ending up in prison.

Next to "Crystal Blue Persuasion", that end credits song is probably my favorite use of licensed music in this universe. The lyrics are on point and the music fits the bittersweet vibe of the ending.

sorry if i posted this in the wrong thread. will delete if an issue

You're good.

I remember liking it but my memory of the details is foggy now. I felt it made sense and now should rewatch it. I am glad Jesse got a resolution of some kind. If anything, he's the one who deserved some kind of happy in terms of main characters, he's the one who seemed to have a conscience and was trying to break away but without success.

I love how Todd looks so milquetoast on the outside or at first glance (and even polite), but the guy is a moral and emotional black hole without any true empathy for anyone else and ends up just being so awful once you can observe him for a while; Plemons is so great. He is one of those rare villains that seems reasonable and low-key in appearance juxtaposed against the utter nihilism of his actions.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

You're good.

I remember liking it but my memory of the details is foggy now. I felt it made sense and now should rewatch it. I am glad Jesse got a resolution of some kind. If anything, he's the one who deserved some kind of happy in terms of main characters, he's the one who seemed to have a conscience and was trying to break away but without success.

I love how Todd looks so milquetoast on the outside or at first glance (and even polite), but the guy is a moral and emotional black hole without any true empathy for anyone else and ends up just being so awful once you can observe him for a while; Plemons is so great. He is one of those rare villains that seems reasonable and low-key in appearance juxtaposed against the utter nihilism of his actions.

My viewing came almost back to back with the BB finale (having just rewatched the entirety of BB). I like that it cuts almost immediately to Jesse leaving the compound, and it felt like a seamless continuation despite being filmed over 5 years later. The first act does feel like another BB episode, but as the movie progresses it becomes its own story. I read on wikipedia that composer Dave Porter used motifs and styles from BB during the flashbacks vs a more cinematic style during the "present day" scenes, and also recorded the entire score sequentially, so that the early scenes are scored to feel more like BB, but as it progresses it takes on its own life, and a new style and themes emerge for Jesse's ongoing journey as those from BB fade away..

If BB seasons 3 through 5A have the feel of the roaring twenties, season 5B and El Camino feel like a transition into the great depression of the thirties. I love the destitute, barren vibe of those last few episodes and this film, like the clarity of a Monday morning hangover after a raging weekend-long party.

I can't think of many film or TV series that have handled change in people so deftly and organically. Every time I wonder how the hell the writers are going to take a character any further, they surprise us. It was also nice to see Jesse get at least a bit of his old, wisecracking vibe back. But not in full. that would have felt cheap and forced. There is no going back to the person we were in the past. Mike's flashback scene set that theme up nicely--you can move on, but can you ever truly set things right to atone for past mistakes and transgressions?

Dave Porter, Ramin Djawedi and Inon Zur may now be my favorite living film composers