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Better Call Saul (spoilers)

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[MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION] - They did actually model Vaas after Michael Mando. The original Vaas was going to be totally different looking xD And yeah, Nacho is cool. I like him, because he's cool and doesn't like Hector tbh. Hector is a real asshole. But I like how he puts his plans together, tbh.
 

ceecee

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Ok I finally caught up with the DVR.

I think Howard gave Chuck that final push to end it all but he won't see it. Jimmy will. People liked Jimmy better than Chuck from his parents on down. That's how Chuck saw it and what made him hate Jimmy - even Kim defected to Jimmy when she could have stayed at the HHM. Howard also gave her the final push. Howard is evil but it's easy to miss because he did things like hold the firm together when Chuck checked out and he makes sure the employees know he was behind the coup. Any last words to the staff, Chuck? No? K.

Chuck, that electric meter, ripping out walls, all of it. It was filmed exquisitely. Down to the slow kicking.

Kim - as soon as I saw the No Doze I knew what was coming. It doesn't mean I take anything bad happening to her very well, lol.

Did anyone find it wild that Nacho ran in that last scene? He never runs, he's always deliberate. Even with his father, slow and deliberate. I also like Nacho very much, I have from the beginning.
 

ceecee

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Well, that's kind of a snub...
http://www.emmys.com/sites/default/files/Downloads/69th-nominations-list-v1ry.pdf

Bob Odenkirk did pick up a nod as Saul Goodman / Jimmy McGill (Best actor hour-long drama), and Jonathan Banks is in there too; but Michael McKean shows up nowhere.

That's tragic. Before BCS, would many have imagined a performance of this caliber coming from Michael McKean? He's been under the radar for a long time.

The Best Actor on TV Is Better Call Saul’s Michael McKean
 

Totenkindly

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New Season supposedly starts on August 6.

BETTER CALL SAUL (AMC, Aug. 6) As it enters its fourth season (no episodes were available), this “Breaking Bad” spinoff and its star, Bob Odenkirk, have moved out of the shadow of the original and become perennial Emmy and Golden Globe nominees in their own rights. (This year the show added a nice prestige-TV accessory, a Peabody Award.) Not much news about Season 4 has leaked, although because the show’s a prequel, some things can be predicted, like a growing role for Giancarlo Esposito’s Gus Fring.
 

Snow as White

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Best. News. Ever.

We just got into this show a few months ago and binged our way through the seasons in about a week.

we find Saul to be the least interesting storyline. Love mike! And more mike! And getting Gus.

And I have a Kim crush.
 

Totenkindly

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I'm rewatching the series before Season 4 comes out, and ran across a rather telling quote in s1e5 that I don't remember if it came up in discussion at end of last season.

it's when Chuck first gets admitted to the hospital and Clea DuVall is his doctor, who tries to be sympathetic but then basically "demonstrates" that Chuck's condition is in his head by turning on his bed without letting him know and he has no reaction to it.

First of all, this is a precursor of how Jimmy wins the case against Chuck in Season 3 midpoint.

But shortly after, Clea and Jimmy are arguing in the hallway about whether to commit him, Jimmy says Chuck is a danger to no one including himself, and Clea interjects with more or less, "The guy is using <type of> lantern in his home, what if it falls over and he burns down his house? Or burns down his entire block?!!"

Yeah. There that is.

It's also interesting to rewatch it with the hindsight that Howard isn't really Jimmy's nemesis (and in fact has stood up for him sometimes behind the scenes), whereas Jimmy already has him pegged as the guy he's out to topple.

----

I just finished rewatching Five-O again. Pretty powerful tour de force from Jonathan Banks... esp since Mike is so taciturn all the time.
 

Totenkindly

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I'm two episodes into Season 2 again. Such a strong show.

What I really want to see, if I could choose the direction, is for (1) Kim to still be alive by the end of the series and (2) for Gene/Jimmy and Kim to find each other again. Please. A happy ending? They are so good together and really care about each other. I don't know if I can handle more tragedy.
 

Totenkindly

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Well, I am back to the gut-wrenching part of Better Call Saul -- I just finished s3e2 (where Jimmy really mucks up his life badly). I basically binged 7 hours of the show today, from mid Season 2 through the beginning of Season 3, to prep for Season 4 in a few weeks.

I really love the show because it is so character driven, and it's the characters who are creating the entire plot because they're acting true to themselves. There's also a lot of real moments -- like when Kim is quizzing Jimmy on what kind of lawyer he's going to be (because she needs him to be one thing), he starts to schmooze her... then realizes he loves her too much and owes himself too much to lie... and is honest about who he knows he is and how he needs to handle his practice... and so Kim rejects his offer as gently as she can.

They have this really adaptable, pliable, give-and-take friendship and/or love for each other. Jimmy would do anything for her, even when it disadvantages himself or hurts him -- he really just loves her to death. And you can see how she delights in him, despite him being so different than her, because she can see that his heart is good and even when he does things that she wishes he didn't. There's that whole great bit at the end of Season 2 when Chuck "exposes" Jimmy to her, and she basically uses the moment to chew Chuck out (because she already knows everything, but she also knows how awful Chuck is in his treatment of Jimmy and how much it hurts him)... and then when they go out to the car, Kim just starts punching Jimmy because she's so pissed off about what he's done.

Rhea Seehorn is such a gem. I connect with her so much as a professional thinking-type woman with a strong sense of responsibility and need to do one's work as diligently as possible. She's so low-key, even-keeled, thinks-through-everything... so then when she has these moments where she suddenly cuts loose (like when she finally tells Jimmy she got Mesa Verde), it's such a radical difference from her normal self, it's like this treasured moment where you're getting to see the raw real emotional her underneath... how she actually FEELS about something versus her typical more processed and tamped-down assessment. There are so many moments of nuance.

The same thing with Mike (Jonathan Banks), like when he interacts with his daughter-in-law. He knows she's lying about the gunshots because he spends all night watching the house... but he never confronts her... because she's the mother of his granddaughter and he feels guilt over his son, so he just takes responsibility (out of love for them and his duty sense) to give them whatever he can at whatever cost to himself. He's another "professional" like Kim, they put their responsibilities and their word above their momentary feelings. So there is a purity about both of them in a show that often showcases the impure. Banks has such a great Mike face, with the sagging unblinking shark eyes, the world-weariness, the refusal to bow to the whims of anyone else and simply do it his way, with workmanship. Not much flash in the pan, but total substance.

Anyway.... the whole Jimmy/Chuck thing is heartwrenching because both are right about each other in some ways, yet so wrong as well. And they are destroying each other. The thing is, Jimmy brings chaos to Chuck's world by default; but Chuck is purposefully trying to destroy Jimmy. I think that's the thing that brings the sympathy for Jimmy. Put another way, Jimmy is typically NOT exploiting Chuck's character (the good things about his character) to bring him to ruin, and in fact often shoulders hardship so as to make Chuck's life easier; but Chuck exploits Jimmy's affection for him to try to get him disbarred. (Jimmy is willing to put people over his ideals; but Chuck sacrifices people to his ideals.) That's the most devastating part of the end of season 2 to watch -- you can see how it is a rift between the brothers that can never be resolved and what will truly shove Jimmy off on a darker path. And then at the end of episode 2 of Season 3, it just gets worse.... Jimmy rages partly as a way to bring them back TOGETHER and restore the boundaries... only to find out that he was duped yet a second time. it's a one-two punch that will shatter their brotherly relationship, bring off the kid gloves, and result in one loser and one winner who likely loses as well.
 

Totenkindly

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So I'm up through episode 8 of Season 3.

I don't recall what was discussed before, but basically after this episode and the prior, we see a more cynical Jimmy -- it's clear that desperation (due to needing money), boredom (because he can't practice law for a year), and frustration (at those who take advantage of him or abuse him in some way) coupled with opportunity is increasing the speed of his moral drift. Having to destroy his brother in court to keep from being disbarred has led him to more embrace the darker side.

I think that his refusal to help Chuck at Rebecca's request after the trial is reasonable. (Her request is really unreasonable despite well-meaning, based on the context of what has gone on between Jimmy and Chuck.... Jimmy was the abused, and you would not ask the abused to "get over things" and keep helping their abuser especially after they've finally just managed to get out from under their thumb... maybe after a long time has passed, they could reach that point? But not immediately... and especially not when part of the abuse was Jimmy constantly helping Chuck while Chuck loathed him and took advantage of his generosity. Rebecca was unfair here).

But where Jimmy really takes his dark turn is when he can't get his malpractice insurance premiums reimbursed, so out of what amounts to petty spite he decides consciously to screw over Chuck by offering a sob story with the sole purpose of conveying "accidentally" that Chuck is mentally ill. As it is, Chuck has actually been doing something admirable -- realizing that, however horrible it was, Jimmy's argument during trial was convincing and he has a mental (rather than physical illness), he embraces this new hard truth and decides to get better. He's still rather lousy at pacing himself and relying on others on difficult tasks, but you can admire his embrace of truth and his tenacity to survive and thrive. (It's actually the first time I have been able to identify with Chuck. It's easy to criticize him for being unrealistic about the difficulty of overcoming mental illness; at the same time, I remember pushing myself very hard in situations where I felt I needed to overcome something. For example, when I had invasive surgery, I remember pushing myself to go out as soon as I could and become active again, so I ended up being weeks ahead of the typical healing timeframe others experiences... I would return after my outings a bit dizzy, weak, and exhausted, but I was independent much sooner than expected. Because it was a "mental" thing for me, my mind asserting itself over my condition. And I can admire Chuck's perseverance and drive to regain mastery over his existence without making excuses or allowances. Once Jimmy "proved" to him that it was a mental condition, Chuck did not shirk from accepting that truth; he embraced it and then tried to deal with it.)

Anyway, this is one of the first major "evil" things Jimmy has done that can't be justified per se somehow, and if I recall correctly, it basically undermines Chuck's endurance and ability to persevere through a fragile time... contributing to the dark finale of Season 3. He's got blood on his hands in some way or form from this.

Also, he is embracing the "slippin' Jimmy" persona willingly... once literally (when he blackmails the music store owners) and twice morally (that, and bullying the work hour overseer who was distasteful). It's all small stuff in some ways (whereas Mike is usually involved in life-or-death plotlines), but you can just see the connections light up in Jimmy's eyes -- like Walt's confession, he likes it, he's good at it, and it makes him feel alive. And damn, is it but lucrative ... easy money, just for running his mouth and/or carrying out a scheme.

Another thing I appreciate about the show is the complex moral tapestry of its protagonists. Nacho, for example. Yeah, he's morally compromised, being in the drug trade, but you can tell that while he has to put up a tough fearsome front, he has a heart. He loves his dad and wants him to stay out of the trade, to the degree he's willing to take drastic measures to protect his dad. He also wants to be sympathetic to Crazy 8, yet he's forced to (by the others around him) to take severe steps to keep everyone in line. He's like a guy who wakes up sometimes and wonders how the hell he got to be in his position because he finds it distasteful on some level, and doesn't necessarily like dealing with all the maniacs and ruthlessness, yet he also willingly went there and isn't just extracting himself. Basically he's still got passions and shreds of conscience left, and it makes his road harder than Tuco's or Hector's.

Finally, a lot of discussion probably focuses on legal vs illegal, good vs evil... but I don't recall if we've discussed professional versus unprofessional/expedient. There's so much discussion of what it means to be a 'respectable' lawyer -- or at least present the veneer of being such -- versus one who doesn't cross t's and dot the i's, one who cuts corners, and maybe undermines the fabric of the law. How does one have integrity? Well, along with maintaining certain standards (and some of the characters do maintain those standards like Kim, while others don't, and still others work to fabricate the APPEARANCE of such while kind of sliding a bit because appearance and reputation matters like Chuck and Howard), there's also a sense of maintaining one's honor [among thieves?].

So along with the legal explorations, we see the criminal side and who is reputable versus not. Mike is a professional -- he says what he does and does what he says, and he doesn't take money for things he does for himself or when he's agreed to not take money. His word is his bond. Whereas Jimmy is all words (he does his "Jedi mind shit" with his slew of neverending speech), Mike believes that actions speak in lieu of words and his speech economy is severe. The same kind of code goes for Gus Fring (who is also an interesting study in complex moral dynamics -- he's a guy who is making tons of money off selling drugs to junkies, yet he's also very admirable, forthright, a community icon, that speech he gives to his crew at Pollos Hermanos is inspiring and pretty authentic aside from the overall duplicity of it, and so on.). This is contrasted with the backstabbers, the crazies, the incompetent (e.g., the guy with the baseball cards), and those without anything they believe in aside from rampant greed and cruelty.

Anyway, that's another huge element of the show -- the professional / honorable who do their work with high standards (Kim, Mike, Gus), versus those who don't take pride in their work or live by any kind of ideal AKA the amateur, the hack, the lazy, the self-absorbed.



I'm still trying to map the Francesca we see in Season 3 (who seems to be a well-measured, pleasant, optimistic, considerate person) with the frustrated and rude woman we saw in Breaking Bad. There's another "slip" waiting to happen...

It's actually kind of sad watching all this, for poor Mike, knowing how things work out for him. He's an impeccable professional who loves his granddaughter and always has tried to compose himself in the best possible way to what he did on the police force, he's scans as a man who knows he is damned but is going to be as true to his word as he can, who unfortunately had to intersect paths with the likes of Walter White. Walter really destroyed a lot of lives and was so self-absorbed he really failed to grasp how awful he was in the process.
 

cascadeco

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^You do a really good job of analyzing the show and bringing in the key elements, and the psychological motives and complexities of all of the characters.

(And when you mentioned Francesca, I was like... who is that? She was in Breaking Bad also? (I am not great with remembering names) -- I had forgotten she was the same receptionist as in Breaking Bad. imo psychologically, assuming for whatever reason she feels she cannot find or get another job, or just 'accepts' the nature of her job thus becomes unmotivated to find something else, I can easily see how she could slide into a worldview/presentation of how she becomes in Breaking Bad -- I suppose I'm projecting some but when I first started out in a customer service oriented role, I was a lot more outwardly 'pleasant' than I now am; it takes a lot more effort for me these days. And when she's surrounded by 100% more of a seedy sector of the population, that'll escalate it even moreso)
 

Totenkindly

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Finished Season 3 again last night.

s03e09 is just a hard episode to watch. It's well-done, but so much awful shit happens, I had trouble watching in one sitting. It's too painful. Aside from what happens with Kim, and Nacho being in a tough place, we also see Jimmy continuing to do something truly terrible even AFTER another character confronts him about it. But he's so locked onto getting the money he needs to help Kim (which is why he also screwed up LAST season, by framing Chuck) and partly by thrilling to the thought of simply being able to pull it off, that he overlooks the impact of his behavior on the elderly women. he thinks somehow everything will be fine afterwards... while failing to see all the fallout.

(and in this sense, Chuck's final speech to him in the finale is accurate to some degree, even if delivered in a cruel and unfair way.)

I didn't find the finale as awful for some reason, even though it has some bad stuff in it. I think it's because a few characters who deserved it get their come-uppance (did Chuck really expect Howard to pay him out of pocket?), and Jimmy actually after taking two steps forward into the Dark Side now takes one step back.... he basically owns up to his own awfulness and makes amends, at cost to himself. On one hand, it's hard to feel bad for him or pat him on the back because he created the situation and now he's just taking responsibility by carrying the fault himself instead of making others do it; on the other hand, taking responsibility for your actions is one mark of a good person versus a selfish one. I think there is also irony in that he simply plays the women for their own benefit here and they STILL don't recognize how he is playing them -- they hate him because he played them and think they caught him, while meanwhile he was just playing them further... this time for their benefit and his loss.

It's interesting that Chuck's relapse occurs after he basically ends his relationship with Jimmy forever ("after all, I never really cared much about you anyway.") It was perhaps the most awful thing he could have said to his younger brother, and he says it in such a matter of fact, nonchalant way, after revealing how Jimmy shouldn't bother to apologize because he's just going to spend the rest of his life hurting people, then apologizing, and he'd be a lot more respectable if he just accepted he's a harmful person to be around. We know from the bar trial that Chuck first got symptoms of his illness shortly after Rebecca left him (and the specific reasons for that, we don't really know although we know she also wanted to tour a lot with the orchestra... but Jimmy suggests Chuck was just awful to be around and finally Rebecca split). So it's interesting.... Rebecca leaves and Chuck suddenly suffers this mental overload/sensitivity... and then he kicks Jimmy out of his life and suddenly can't sleep and starts obsessing again.

I think after watching all three seasons of this, Chuck is actually a fundamentally anxious person. He copes with anxiety by trying to control his relationships and control his environment. He is also very controlling in his practice of the law. While he tries to preach it as a form of idealism and duty, it's really because he doesn't feel secure unless everything is locked down and buttoned up tight. It's why he freaks out when he thinks he made a mistake, it's why he doesn't like Jimmy's schemes (because trust is hard for him), it's why he criticizes and manipulates others emotionally through criticism -- to stay in control -- and when he's alone, his anxiety grows and he spirals out. So Rebecca left him, and his anxiety got displaced into this form of OCD and energy-sensitivity, and as soon as he tells off Jimmy and Jimmy silently leaves + Chuck losing the only OTHER support in his life (his practice of law / being a lawyer in a company he built), he completely spirals out of control again and then... well, sometimes the only way to end your anxiety is to end it.



^You do a really good job of analyzing the show and bringing in the key elements, and the psychological motives and complexities of all of the characters.

(And when you mentioned Francesca, I was like... who is that? She was in Breaking Bad also? (I am not great with remembering names) -- I had forgotten she was the same receptionist as in Breaking Bad. imo psychologically, assuming for whatever reason she feels she cannot find or get another job, or just 'accepts' the nature of her job thus becomes unmotivated to find something else, I can easily see how she could slide into a worldview/presentation of how she becomes in Breaking Bad -- I suppose I'm projecting some but when I first started out in a customer service oriented role, I was a lot more outwardly 'pleasant' than I now am; it takes a lot more effort for me these days. And when she's surrounded by 100% more of a seedy sector of the population, that'll escalate it even moreso)

That makes sense. So it's more a matter of "Why is Francesca still working for Jimmy during Breaking Bad?" It seems that, for some reason, she can't get employment elsewhere by that point, even while despising the job and the people she must daily interact with. There must be some kind of circumstance that has trapped her, so she can't just leave; and so her attitude floors out.
 

Totenkindly

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I think another reason why BCS is so great is that, while technically it is a prequel, it exists as itself. Some prequels exist merely to explain what happened in the original series, and have very little of their own story to tell beyond that. (Honestly, I felt that way watching the Solo movie -- so much time was wasted explaining stuff we didn't need explained that had been brought up in Star Wars. Was the film even necessary?)

There is actually a narrative here. There are characters with their own stories that existed before and outside of Breaking Bad. There are characters we weren't even aware of before and who might exist beyond Breaking Bad as well. And while they might be smaller (I mean, we're talking small legal enterprises here, typically boring stuff; and small-criminal antics in general aside from the Salamanca/Fring plotline), they somehow manage to become reflective of the overall damnation/salvation of these characters who exist for themselves and not necessarily for Breaking Bad.

And it's not just a rehash of Breaking Bad, although as I mentioned there is a similar between Jimmy and Walt in why they do what they do. But how they do it is very different... and meanwhile Jimmy actually has a good heart cloaked in grime, while Walt was mainly hiding a darker heart cloaked at first in reasonableness and passivity. Jimmy's fortunate he wasn't completely destroyed by Walt, who seemed to poison everything he touched by the end. Is there ever a turn towards redemption? it could happen. At least with him, moreso than with Walt, you want it to happen.
 

Totenkindly

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Watched Season 1 of Breaking Bad again.

Not only do we see Crazy 8, but there's a bit here where Skinny Pete claimed to know Tuco from being cellmates for awhile. I'm wondering if that might be how Skinny Pete could show up in BCS... Tuco's currently doing time for his incident with Mike. It's the probable tie-in.
 

ceecee

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And it's not just a rehash of Breaking Bad, although as I mentioned there is a similar between Jimmy and Walt in why they do what they do. But how they do it is very different... and meanwhile Jimmy actually has a good heart cloaked in grime, while Walt was mainly hiding a darker heart cloaked at first in reasonableness and passivity. Jimmy's fortunate he wasn't completely destroyed by Walt, who seemed to poison everything he touched by the end. Is there ever a turn towards redemption? it could happen. At least with him, moreso than with Walt, you want it to happen.

Def not a rehash. My ENFJ and I binged on BB several Xmas' back right after it finished. When we heard about BCS, we planned to watch from the beginning and we did. I think it is better than BB but that may be projecting because I watched BB and know what's coming. But it's SO well made and it's easy to want Jimmy to succeed. Walt, I mostly didn't except for his children who didn't deserve those parents (Skyler too).
 

Totenkindly

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Def not a rehash. My ENFJ and I binged on BB several Xmas' back right after it finished. When we heard about BCS, we planned to watch from the beginning and we did. I think it is better than BB but that may be projecting because I watched BB and know what's coming. But it's SO well made and it's easy to want Jimmy to succeed. Walt, I mostly didn't except for his children who didn't deserve those parents (Skyler too).

I think it's easier to empathize with Walt early on... although there are some disturbing moments where he is suddenly abusive to Jesse and Skyler. You think it's just growing pains and he'll figure himself out. It is even acceptable that he at first rejects treatment -- he needs to feel like he has a choice -- and then later, when it's up to him, he chooses to undergo treatment because the decision is now his, not anyone else's. It's a rough ride (kind of like Nate in Six Feet Under) but you think there is redemption possible.

But then he is offered the money for his cancer treatment by Elliot and Gretchen and he refuses, determining to get the money himself by going back to cooking. This is after he was in a situation of possibly taking a life and agonizing over it. At that moment, you can tell he is choosing to commit, because he had options and it would have been so damn easy to take the money (and legitimate).... but he refuses. And then he lies about it to cover it up. And then he decides to try to force his way into the distribution trade.

By end of Season 1, he actually has committed murder (reluctantly), burglary, breaking and entering, making and selling drugs, using stolen funds, stealing school equipment, etc. There's a lot of stuff on his rap sheet. The bottom line is that Walt has had options to legitimately get treated and provide for his family (he is also offered a job at Grey Matter)... and he rejects them all for the life of a modern desperado because he likes it on some level. Also, he's making money off junkies and addicts and funding further violence in the system.

Jimmy tends to screw people over if he thinks they're being stupid and/or more out of a sense of justice when he's fighting the system. He views himself as the little guy being bullied by the big guys and also defends the little guys simply because he believes it to be fair. It's more a rebellion against systematic injustice, although he also gets a rush when he scams someone. But he does a lot of selfless stuff for people he loves, out of his own choice and not because he feels compelled by them.

So there both are butting up against the system, but one is choosing to break the law as an ends, the other happens to break the laws in the pursuit of (generally) doing good / attacking systematic injustice, although there's a lot of muddled selfishness in there too at times. Jimmy is overall, I think, easier to empathize with. Walt claims to love his family but routinely lies to them, abuses them, manipulates them. If you look at everyone Jimmy loves, he typically does not do any of that -- he sacrifices for them and takes losses to protect them, unless they badly hurt him first... and then he's more responding to that sense of betrayal and STILL can't help but try to aid them (like telling the truth to Chuck so that he wouldn't think he was insane and quit practicing... whereupon it turns out Chuck was playing him).

I think BCS is better in the sense it's more nuanced and it takes a more "normal" approach to life and how these things play out, versus the grandiose stark criminal life of BB.
 

Totenkindly

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The season finale (season 4) ran last night.

It's still one of my favorite shows, although I think things clicked a little better when Jimmy and Chuck were interacting. Without Chuck around, the show has gotten darker, a bit more reflective of Breaking Bad (esp Mike's arc), and didn't seem quite as grounded in the detail. But it's still been excellent.

The finale was pretty hard. The cold open with Jimmy and Chuck, if you followed all the seasons, was heartbreaking to watch now that we know how things resolved with them. And the last twenty minutes of the show were pretty crushing.

Mike


Jimmy
 

Totenkindly

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Also... Jimmy's god awful terrible at singing, but Chuck can sing -- which isn't surprising. After all Michael McKeen is part of Spinal Tap. :D

Love that Ernie.
 
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