[Fi] Are Fi and selfishness related?

[Amargith]

Then test her. Ask her for something. A favour, make it clear that it would mean a great deal to you. And ask without guilttripping or whatever. Just nicely. See what she does

I know it's not the most ethical approach but it will get you your answers quickly. Another option is to bite the bullet and in a non-judgemental way ask her how she views your friendship and why it is that she feels the need for this cocoon.

Also, if you do decide to 'test', give her a chance to explain her side afterwards.

Once you have all this info, you can then make an informed decision as to what to do with this friendship, and whether you need to redefine it to something that more accurately portrays the situation. Good luck

 

[Athenian200]

For those of you that don't see things in these terms, do you have any thoughts for how to reconcile the two in a relationship or close friendship?

No. I'd be pretty uncomfortable with a person who thinks in those terms. I don't like rooting things in physical help and offers of service.

 

[PeaceBaby]

It's so fun when a thread explodes overnight!

The point is, not everyone would want what you're describing. Also, some people feel extremely uncomfortable/awkward around injured or sick people. Did you not consider that possibility?

I am going to go to bat for Athenian on this one. My father has such a strong reaction to certain hospital-type situations that he will literally pass out - it's called vasovagal syncope, and it only "happens" during these types of crises. Indeed some people do have a real challenging time processing the emotional components associated with illness.

Fe can be selfish too, as in they want to talk to you and hang out with you and bug the shit out of you whenever THEY feel like it then whine about it when you don't. Unhealthy Fe can be invasive, needy, and overbearing.If that's not selfish, I don't know what is.

Fe does impose itself over Fi, since Fi seeks to please others based on the internal value system of what's right to do in friendships, not simply socially obligatory gestures. I really do care about helping and making others happy, so it's natural to put oneself in "second place" to the needs of Fe.

Anyone can be selfish. It's a subjective opinion.

Agreed.

I think that is an issue of directing and informing communication styles. Demanding something might not go over well. Informing could work well. Instead of saying, "I need you to do....", you could say, "I love when my friends buy me candies & flowers on V day". That may seem like hinting, but I think it's direct enough to communicate your needs without being pushy.

I have a friend who told me she was big on giving/getting gifts, so I made it a point to buy her a housewarming gift & things for other occasions. Then I discovered she really only liked to get, not give :steam: .

Well said and yes, there are plenty who love to get rather than give ...

I don't even know why we're debating anymore, lol.
Look. Friends are friends. If you're my friend, that means I know you, and you know me. You're not a stranger. You're my friend. We already have some mutual caring going on.
Because I know you, you do not have to prove that you're my friend. I trust you already.
People are different.
If you doubt a friendship based on a phone call, then that's an insecure friendship.
If I knew you wouldn't call, and I knew I'd be upset if I didn't talk to you, I'd call you myself, not lay there debating whether you're a good friend or not.
If you are normally one that will call and check up on me, and you don't, then I'll call you and ask what the hell is going on and why didn't you call me.
Ugh.
That's how my friendships are, anyway.

Edit: I'm sorry if I sound offensive, I don't mean to be. Some topics get me really... flustered.

Well said.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

You and Lauren Ashley just sound like the worst kind of Sensors to me. It's that... heaviness. It's all about getting real, pitching in, doing things, pushing hard, or getting discounted. No room for fun, words, or a dream-oriented perspective in that definition of friendship.

You've got to be kidding me.

I have plenty of "fun," with my friends, but I would think that anyone considering me as a friend wouldn't see it as a burden to give me a call or reply to an email, if I was home sick. This isn't difficult in the least, and I would do the same for them if they were in that situation. If you consider this heaviness, I suggest you get off your computer and take a peek at the real world outside of the internet.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess the issue here is whether or not to make someone feel impinged upon. The expectation to do these things (e.g., get candies on special occasions, call after work, pick them up dinner every so often) will exist whether the person states them directly or not, but if they don't say them directly, then it seems like they aren't impinging upon anyone. But the truth is that they still have those expectations, and will still have bad reactions when they are not met. So why not tell them outright instead of being sly about it, putting yourself on shaky footing when you eventually get angry (because the "if you don't tell me, then how can I be expected to know" defense is hard to get around)?

Because if you do, then you are pushy (to some people). And around and around we go...

And to be clear, yes I personally let any expectations I have be known. That's why I'm the "diva."

 

[PeaceBaby]

Most of the time me and my friends have fun but life is not always fun and one has to learn how to cram fun into even the darkest moments of life, like when your friend has broken their foot and when they feel up to it, you go over there and make a party out of a few hours of their misery. What's so awful about that?

Well, I stated earlier that I had broken a foot as well in the past - this happened when my kids were much younger. I had the "bootie" cast and was very active the whole time. I didn't want anyone to come over, didn't need that for a broken foot issue, so I don't think it's a given that someone should know when you want company in these situations.

Granted, I think a phone call to check in would be nice, even a little get well note. But it's an incorrect assumption to say everyone wants or expects the same things.

 

[Amargith]

Lauren: for some people this requires more effort than clearing their entire schedule to be there for you at your request.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Lauren: for some people this requires more effort than clearing their entire schedule to be there for you at your request.

You've got to clear your whole schedule to send a phone call or reply to an email?

 

[Amargith]

You've got to clear your whole schedule to send a phone call or reply to an email?

No. You misunderstood
It costs me more effort to remember to send that email or pick up the phone (I never know where mine is anyways), than it does to clear my entire schedule, drop what I'm doing and come over at my friends request.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

No. You misunderstood
It costs me more effort to remember to send that email or pick up the phone (I never know where mine is anyways), than it does to clear my entire schedule, drop what I'm doing and come over at my friends request.

Ah. I see. Well, who is complaining about you doing the latter? The issue here isn't about doing one or the other, it is about doing nothing.

 

[Amargith]

Ah. I see. Well, who is complaining about you doing the latter?

Not my point
My point is, for you it might be easy to remember to send a mail or call, even elementary as such. It's not that way for everyone. Each person has their own way to show someone they care. And they'll often do it in the way that comes most natural to them, not the one the other person expects or considers normal.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

My point is, for you it might be easy to remember to send a mail or call, even elementary as such. It's not that way for everyone. Each person has their own way to show someone they care. And they'll often do it in the way that comes most natural to them, not the one the other person expects or considers normal.

Well, for lack of a better word, duh. But I don't see how this relates to the OP, still. The friend in the OP did nothing, as far as we know. Unless doing nothing is what comes most natural to them...

EDIT: Are you referring to this?

I have plenty of "fun," with my friends, but I would think that anyone considering me as a friend wouldn't see it as a burden to give me a call or reply to an email, if I was home sick.

If so, that was just an example. I'm not going to condemn someone for coming to visit instead of sending an email.

 

[Amargith]

Agreed. I merely responded to your statement to Athenian

 

[Lightyear]

I am going to go to bat for Athenian on this one. My father has such a strong reaction to certain hospital-type situations that he will literally pass out - it's called vasovagal syncope, and it only "happens" during these types of crises. Indeed some people do have a real challenging time processing the emotional components associated with illness.

Of course there are exceptions but in general I think it's a bit of a weak excuse. When I broke my foot I actually wore this rather smashing orthopaedic boot which was very interesting to look at and made me feel like Robocop or the 6-Million Dollar Man; so no blood or gore or traumatic sights there.

I also don't like whining or needlessly being whined at so if someone visits me while I am sick you can be sure that I would not just unload the whole pain of the world and beyond upon him, I would acutally try to uplift the person, what's the point of everyone feeling sad with me unless there is a real reason (because of death of a close relative, sudden news of a chronic illness or something like that)?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Of course there are exceptions but in general I think it's a bit of a weak excuse.

Trust me, it's a complicated situation with a mother having a medical procedure done and a father who has passed out and is in the emergency ward!

Blood and gore not necessary!

I am not trying to make excuses for your friend, I am simply trying to illuminate the subject 360 degrees.

 

[proteanmix]

I haven't read through the whole thread so if someone's already said this then I guess you're hearing it again.

I don't believe this is about Fe/Fi, each function has their own unique snowflake way of being selfish. Heart's statements closely match my opinion on the matter.

To the situation at hand, I do sympathize with lightyear. It differs person to person, but if I'm in the hospital sick or even at home severely sick I would at least like to get the offer from a person I consider a friend to come and visit (if they're within my immediate area). It's not obligation to me but part of being a friend and showing how much I care. Am I reading correctly? Would most people who've answered in this thread not visit a hospitalized friend? If there's any confusion, it seems a fairly simple matter of asking "Would you like for me to visit you?" I know that some people don't like to be visited while they're sick so it seems like just asking would clear up any doubts. These attitudes are surprising to me, but I've been here long enough to know better.

My mother was hospitalized for 6 weeks and in a rehabilitation facility for three months. Many of her church friends came to visit her during that period of time. I don't care if it was out of a sense of obligation or not because their presence and kind words encouraged her and lifted her spirits during a very dangerous period. I'm convinced knowing that she was cared for gave her the will to keep fighting and survive. There was a time when she said she didn't want any visitors and we told them that and no one was offended. Yes, you can know that your friends care by virtue of them being your friends, but sometimes you need that physical hand on your shoulder or see that smile. Having someone's physical presence with you can make a world of difference.

When simple gestures of support are reduced to rote social obligation then what kind of responsibility do you all think you have towards your friends and vice versa? I'm not seeing any unspoken rules lightyear is demanding from her friend. I'm under the impression friends do things like this for friends, no one's keeping count or having a secret list of rules and violations, it's just basic showing you care.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I haven't read through the whole thread so if someone's already said this then I guess you're hearing it again.

I don't believe this is about Fe/Fi, each function has their own unique snowflake way of being selfish. Heart's statements closely match my opinion on the matter.

To the situation at hand, I do sympathize with lightyear. It differs person to person, but if I'm in the hospital sick or even at home severely sick I would at least like to get the offer from a person I consider a friend to come and visit (if they're within my immediate area). It's not obligation to me but part of being a friend and showing how much I care. Am I reading correctly? Would most people who've answered in this thread not visit a hospitalized friend? If there's any confusion, it seems a fairly simple matter of asking "Would you like for me to visit you?" I know that some people don't like to be visited while they're sick so it seems like just asking would clear up any doubts. These attitudes are surprising to me, but I've been here long enough to know better.

My mother was hospitalized for 6 weeks and in a rehabilitation facility for three months. Many of her church friends came to visit her during that period of time. I don't care if it was out of a sense of obligation or not because their presence and kind words encouraged her and lifted her spirits during a very dangerous period. I'm convinced knowing that she was cared for gave her the will to keep fighting and survive. There was a time when she said she didn't want any visitors and we told them that and no one was offended. Yes, you can know that your friends care by virtue of them being your friends, but sometimes you need that physical hand on your shoulder or see that smile. Having someone's physical presence with you can make a world of difference.

When simple gestures of support are reduced to rote social obligation then what kind ofresponsibility do you all think you have towards your friends and vice versa? I'm not seeing any unspoken rules lightyear is demanding from her friend. I'm under the impression friends do things like this for friends, no one's keeping count or having a secret list of rules and violations, it's just basic showing you care.

Well said, protean. Agreed 100 percent.

 

[Athenian200]

I have plenty of "fun," with my friends, but I would think that anyone considering me as a friend wouldn't see it as a burden to give me a call or reply to an email, if I was home sick. This isn't difficult in the least, and I would do the same for them if they were in that situation. If you consider this heaviness, I suggest you get off your computer and take a peek at the real world outside of the internet.

Now THAT I would do. I would also send a card.

I just wouldn't offer to go visit them in person or help them out with anything practical, because quite honestly I'd prefer not to. If they asked me, though, I might get off my lazy arse and do it anyway. But I'm not the kind to take on responsibilities if I don't have to. Especially not if it's something I'm uncomfortable with in the first place.

There's a huge difference between expecting to someone to offer their presence or service without being asked, and expecting them to call or reply to an e-mail.

Don't talk like I haven't seen the real world, either. And yes, I do think that's "heaviness," and the real world is often rife with it. That's one of the reasons I don't like or appreciate it.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Now THAT I would do. I would also send a card.

I just wouldn't offer to go visit them in person or help them out with anything practical, because quite honestly I'd prefer not to. If they asked me, though, I might get off my lazy arse and do it anyway. But I'm not the kind to take on responsibilities if I don't have to. Especially not if it's something I'm uncomfortable with in the first place.

There's a huge difference between expecting to someone to offer their presence or service without being asked, and expecting them to call or reply to an e-mail.

Well, I think if the friend had replied to the email or called and said she felt uncomfortable visiting, Lightyear would have understood. I could be wrong but I think it was the lack of consideration, not so much the lack of tangible help, that was the trigger for the OP.

 

[heart]

Now THAT I would do. I would also send a card.

I just wouldn't offer to go visit them in person or help them out with anything practical, because quite honestly I'd prefer not to. If they asked me, though, I might get off my lazy arse and do it anyway. But I'm not the kind to take on responsibilities if I don't have to. Especially not if it's something I'm uncomfortable with in the first place.

There's a huge difference between expecting to someone to offer their presence or service without being asked, and expecting them to call or reply to an e-mail.

 

[professor goodstain]

imo. Fi and selfishness are only related when an egotistical observer/Fi recipient makes a poor judgement on Fi influenced actions and inactions generated from Fi dominant/feeder/retrograde individual. So, this "selfishness" is kinda like our US currency in a way. We'll call it "inflated selfishness perception biproxy" Thus the judgement of selfishness is then (almost immediatly) easily expanded to label the Fi preference carrier as a whole and not just isolated actions/inactions. Quite obtuse. From a social standpoint, this obtuse judgement of selfishness tagged on an Fi action/inaction carrier is usually always generated from an Fe dominant/feeder/retrograde carrier. After all. What motive is behind the very idea of Fi and (selfishness)? Could the motive be Se? Or perhaps Ne? Maybe Ni and Si or Te? i'm leaving Ti/Fi out because it's the "motive" behind my conclusion that Fe and Fi are the most polar toward each other (have the least overlap) of any dominant/feeder/retrograde functions.