About Intuition

[Polaris]

Yes, same for me. I don't experience this "cloud" metaphor in the OP - things are just clearly obvious, usually.

I'm with INTJMom - I think you sound like an ISxJ, sometimes feeling the pull or twinge of Ne (since everybody has it), but because your Si is so dominant over it, it sort of drowns it out in much the same way that I feel Si - like a half-remembered dream that comes and goes in strange images that you can't quite recall or make sense of, that slip away like eels when you try to grasp at them. In other words, you sound like you're feeling Ne in its guise as an inferior function.

Actually, I relate a lot to the OP's cloud metaphor. Intuition often happens spontaneously for me, but when I make a conscious decision to solve a problem, the process feels just like drawing an internal image into focus. I think this is a form of Ni, which probably isn't something you and a lot of the others here identify with.

My use of Ne may be more familiar to some of the people in this thread. Ne can be spontaneous, as some of you have mentioned, but it's more often a playful activity in which I try random connections and see what fits. A good example of this process would be what I do when I'm desperate to get an answer: if the mental image won't come clear, I'll pull out a dictionary and look up random words to see if any of them shed light on things.

Do I think either of those processes are uniquely related to the subconscious? No, I don't. I think they can happen without you prompting them, but this is also true of the other functions.

 

[Snuggletron]

Ne allows one to make the connection that Obama is actually a reptilian, even though no one saw his scales or his reptilian death ray.

Ni allows one to see the underlying events of the world beneath the surface, tracing the future nanobot scourge back to the H1N1 vaccinations as the reptilians planted them in the flu shot concoctions so they could control the population and set forth their secretive actions to seize power of the banks and send everyone into FEMA death camps (before it happens of course).

This is why we need iNtuiteers in this world, to catch the reptilians red handed and kill the leaders before they enslave us.

 

[Thalassa]

I think that Ne people are VERY random - that is an important word you brought up there, Nunki.

 

[Ruthie]

I strongly disagree. SJs, because of Si, have completely different strengths, on the whole, than NFs. Same with NTs. It's not just about having certain hobbies or skills. The ability to almost instantaneously perceive underlying principals and realities is not something that most people do, or even care to do. I'm around people every day - listening to them talk, reading my peers papers in English classes, and interacting with people on the Internet - and I'm telling you that Ns do, in fact, make up a much smaller segment of the population.

But I wasn't speaking generically of SJs or NFs. I was saying that I do that fairly easily, and I find that most people I know do as well. Yeah, it's anecdotal, but I think my social pool is representative enough to have a margin of error somewhere less than 95%.

Why did you think you were an N?

I always tested N. I prefer big-picture to details, make connections quickly and enjoy theory. I like to learn things because I'm interested in them and not because there's a practical end to learning them. I was always led to believe that those were traits associated with Ns.

My tastes were always different than most Ns. I never really got into the fantasy or sci-fi genre, preferring reality and subtlety to leaps of imagination. Always liked biographies, historical books, or political/sociological theory books over novels - in other words, things grounded in the real world, if not necessarily my everyday life.

What you describe as "aha!" is Ni. Ne is the ability to see underlying patterns in everything on a subconscious level (which is probably why it is so difficult for Ns to effectively describe this process outside of its results), and analyze them, and I know from my own personal experience that it's a rare ability in the general population. It's not that the general population can't see them, it's just something that takes more effort on their part, something that doesn't come naturally and quickly to them.

I have a little Si, and if you are an ISTJ you have a little Ne. Everyone uses a variety of functions, but what makes you a particular type is your primary preferences and strongest ability.

I have no idea why some Ss mistype as Ns. I have a friend, for example, who totally mistyped herself as an ENFJ when she is obviously an ESFJ and has even told me herself that she prefers subjects which are factual, hands-on, and related to her daily life. I think it's because both are Fe dom, plus she believes she has latent psychic abilities, or "women's intuition" if you will, and that's how Ni - the auxillary function of ENFJ - is described to some degree.

Ne, as you describe it, would be present but not easily accessible to an ISTJ. I assure you, I think associatively as well as most people. My guess is that if I were one of your peers in English, you'd have me typed as Ne as well. I enjoy brainstorming, or just spitballing random, crazy ideas around. And I also assure you, I'm not Ne-dominant. I really think Si is my dominant function. I'm not a particularly unusual case either - if everyone like me was typed as xNxP, that would account for a much larger share of the population.

Unlike your friend (and I understand this is now Ni we're talking about) I never thought I had an ounce of psychic ability. I imagine having such an ability is extremely rare, and while I'm not inclined to believe it even exists, I'm not so dismissive as to believe it doesn't. Still, compared to Ni, Ne seems so pedestrian that I'm having a hard time believing it's seen as equally rare. How can anyone compare the common ability to brainstorm and make connections to the ability to mind-read?

 

[Thalassa]

But I wasn't speaking generically of SJs or NFs. I was saying that I do that fairly easily, and I find that most people I know do as well. Yeah, it's anecdotal, but I think my social pool is representative enough to have a margin of error somewhere less than 95%.

Most people you know do this fairly easily? Really? What sort of people do you know? I would love to live in a world where most people do this fairly easily. It would make it much easier for people like me to fit in.

I always tested N. I prefer big-picture to details, make connections quickly and enjoy theory. I like to learn things because I'm interested in them and not because there's a practical end to learning them. I was always led to believe that those were traits associated with Ns.

I think you might be an N.

My tastes were always different than most Ns. I never really got into the fantasy or sci-fi genre, preferring reality and subtlety to leaps of imagination. Always liked biographies, historical books, or political/sociological theory books over novels - in other words, things grounded in the real world, if not necessarily my everyday life.

I hate sci-fi. Though I do I have a prediliction toward horror...I like political and sociological theory. The fact that you like facts over novels may simply make you a T as opposed to an F. You very well may be an NT.

Ne, as you describe it, would be present but not easily accessible to an ISTJ. I assure you, I think associatively as well as most people.

You do. No one is picking on *you* as an individual or denying this fact.

My guess is that if I were one of your peers in English, you'd have me typed as Ne as well.

Nope. You misunderstood what I meant. When I read people's papers usually I can tell if they use N or S. There's a very smart guy who has been in some of my English classes who I strongly believe is an ISTJ.

I enjoy brainstorming, or just spitballing random, crazy ideas around. And I also assure you, I'm not Ne-dominant. I really think Si is my dominant function. I'm not a particularly unusual case either - if everyone like me was typed as xNxP, that would account for a much larger share of the population.

I just don't see this at all. I don't see a lot of people as having Ne. I think we just aren't using the same definition of Ne and that's why you think you see it everywhere.

Unlike your friend (and I understand this is now Ni we're talking about) I never thought I had an ounce of psychic ability. I imagine having such an ability is extremely rare, and while I'm not inclined to believe it even exists, I'm not so dismissive as to believe it doesn't. Still, compared to Ni, Ne seems so pedestrian that I'm having a hard time believing it's seen as equally rare. How can anyone compare the common ability to brainstorm and make connections to the ability to mind-read?

Ne is pedestrian? What the hell are you talking about? How can a function be "pedestrian."

No one is comparing the common ability to brainstorm to the ability to mind-read.


You've totally lost me. More over, you seem angry and defensive and snarly. You've seemed that way the entire thread. I think people have every right to define Ne just as much as there is a thread about using Si. I didn't see you jumping up and down and denying that Si exists over there.

 

[onemoretime]

^^ Big picture is more P than N, as is enjoying learning beyond simply what's practical.

Also, the big difference between Ne and what you're talking about isn't immediately apparent. Sure, brainstorming is a big deal. However, it's more the understanding that everything has an implicit effect on other things, and not only that, but immediately seeing those chains of logic, that makes Ne what it is. It's not so much "these are the logical connections between things (which is a function of Thinking)" as much as it is "If I do this, because of what I know about, this, this and this, I can be fairly certain that this will be the outcome".

 

[Ruthie]

Most people you know do this fairly easily? Really? What sort of people do you know? I would love to live in a world where most people do this fairly easily. It would make it much easier for people like me to fit in.






I think you might be an N.



I hate sci-fi. Though I do I have a prediliction toward horror...I like political and sociological theory. The fact that you like facts over novels may simply make you a T as opposed to an F. You very well may be an NT.





You do. No one is picking on *you* as an individual or denying this fact.



Nope. You misunderstood what I meant. When I read people's papers usually I can tell if they use N or S. There's a very smart guy who has been in some of my English classes who I strongly believe is an ISTJ.



I just don't see this at all. I don't see a lot of people as having Ne. I think we just aren't using the same definition of Ne and that's why you think you see it everywhere.



Ne is pedestrian? What the hell are you talking about? How can a function be "pedestrian."

No one is comparing the common ability to brainstorm to the ability to mind-read.


You've totally lost me. More over, you seem angry and defensive and snarly. You've seemed that way the entire thread. I think people have every right to define Ne just as much as there is a thread about using Si. I didn't see you jumping up and down and denying that Si exists over there.

I'll respond to the message in a minute, but I first of all wanted to apologize for the "angry, defensive, and snarly" tone. I often come across that way in writing and I really don't mean to. I'm actually enjoying the discussion, and have always enjoyed the things you've written, so please don't take it personally. The combination of my natural writing style and the wine I'm drinking probably made the tone of this come out differently than I intended.

 

[Thalassa]

I'll respond to the message in a minute, but I first of all wanted to apologize for the "angry, defensive, and snarly" tone. I often come across that way in writing and I really don't mean to. I'm actually enjoying the discussion, and have always enjoyed the things you've written, so please don't take it personally. The combination of my natural writing style and the wine I'm drinking probably made the tone of this come out differently than I intended.

Ok. Cool. For the record I think you're smart, and I think you've expressed some really interesting ideas in other threads, so don't take anything that I've said personally, either.

 

[Arclight]

Intuition is exactly your subconscious mind trying to tell you something. People with strong or dominant intuition *do* pick it up, straight away, without trying most of the time. It's not a struggle unless intuition is a weaker function for you.

Thank you!!,, this is what I was Intuiting ...I don't always struggle unless it's personal.. I don't like to face myself sometimes.. SO obviously I fight it..

However Making connections between A and D while skipping B and C are quite natural to me..

I think some people are just more honest with themselves and therefore are quicker at reading what their subconscious is telling them..
It's not really a magic power or anything like that.. More like, self realization due to the virtue of honesty...

 

[Arclight]

You know what Ne is? It's getting from point A to B instantaneously in your brain. It's not that you make the connection as much as you just do it really, really quickly. It's also living in a constant state of deja vu - everything reminds you of somewhere you've been before, or a dream you once had. It's a fundamental understanding of the threads that are influenced by every action. It's following the path many say does not exist.

It's also being gravely aware of how short the days are in front of you, and how little time you really have.

This is just common sense.. No?... I mean anyone who is half aware of things knows that every day could be their last, and that life in general hangs by a delicate thread..

 

[Arclight]

Or understanding that B and C are irrelevant . B and C only really pop up when you have to explain the logical chain to others. The connection between A and D in one's own head are apparent enough to make a coherent connection.

This is also quite true to me..

 

[onemoretime]

This is just common sense.. No?... I mean anyone who is half aware of things knows that every day could be their last, and that life in general hangs by a delicate thread..

Not even that - more that in a very real sense, your life is already over, and that when you're looking back on the thirty years to come, you'll feel as if it took no time whatsoever.

Scary, scary thoughts. I guess that's why I like Vonnegut so much - the idea of a static universe where time is simply a function of perception based on human evolution, and that all points in time are just as omnipersistent as all others is very comforting.

 

[Ruthie]

Alright, back to discussion mode...

I think you might be an N.

Well, yeah, you think that because I only listed the reasons I had thought I was N and didn't share the reasons I was more certain I was Si-dom. (if you want to read those, they're in that Si thread).

I hate sci-fi. Though I do I have a prediliction toward horror...I like political and sociological theory. The fact that you like facts over novels may simply make you a T as opposed to an F. You very well may be an NT.

I like horror too (well... some horror). The NT temperament doesn't fit me at all. I despise intellectual superiority (and most NTs will admit they harbor some, even if they have the social skills to keep it on the back-burner). I know nothing about the hard sciences, am terrible at chess (I've never known an NT admit to that!), and have no interest in the future. I like routines, like the past, I'm on speaking terms with organized religion, believe most people are pretty smart, and only throw around words like "pedestrian" when I'm half drunk

I just don't see this at all. I don't see a lot of people as having Ne. I think we just aren't using the same definition of Ne and that's why you think you see it everywhere.

That's exactly my point. That the definition of Ne MUST be something more than brainstorming, making connections, formulating theories and preferring concepts to details.

Ne is pedestrian? What the hell are you talking about? How can function be "pedestrian."

Yeah yeah... I'll punish myself for using that word. Trust me.

No one is comparing the common ability to brainstorm to the ability to mind-read.

Alright, poor word choice aside, there is a difference. People who use the function Ni as commonly defined are basically psychic, people who use Ne as commonly defined would fit right in playing Apples to Apples at my house. I'm just saying there's a major difference in terms of what I've encountered.

You've totally lost me. More over, you seem angry and defensive and snarly. You've seemed that way the entire thread. I think people have every right to define Ne just as much as there is a thread about using Si. I didn't see you jumping up and down and denying that Si exists over there.

Don't misunderstand me - I have no doubt whatsoever that Ne (or any other function) does exist. I just think that it has been defined as something much simpler than what it actually must be.

 

[Polaris]

I think that Ne people are VERY random - that is an important word you brought up there, Nunki.

Indeed they are, but I think this randomness often isn't as random as it seems. When you make connections between weird things, it's because you recognize some kind of link--those things fit, based on some familiar pattern. Other people often overlook the link, and so to them it seems random, but to the person who created it, it makes perfect sense.

So really, Ne is like storing unconscious templates for patterns, which you can then use to make spontaneous connections. You can also use those templates to notice when something is missing or incongruous. For example, I find it extremely easy to notice when someone is embroidering the truth or leaving out details--they're doing something that doesn't fit with the pattern, so to speak.

 

[Arclight]

Not even that - more that in a very real sense, your life is already over, and that when you're looking back on the thirty years to come, you'll feel as if it took no time whatsoever.

Scary, scary thoughts. I guess that's why I like Vonnegut so much - the idea of a static universe where time is simply a function of perception based on human evolution, and that all points in time are just as omnipersistent as all others is very comforting.

Scary yes.. But also very interesting.. care to elaborate a little more so a silly little Ixxx like myself can grasp it better?

I know time is an illusion.. A man made construct to catalog our linear existence..

Perhaps all points in time co exist simultaneously.. But what use is that to a lineal existence.. except foresight .. and hindsight (for practical reasons of learning lessons)

As for foresight .. doesn't it very existence change simply by the fact it has been observed?? or does the observation set into motion the chain of events that will make it so??

damn.. !!

 

[Arclight]

Indeed they are, but I think this randomness often isn't as random as it seems. When you make connections between weird things, it's because you recognize some kind of link--those things fit, based on some familiar pattern. Other people often overlook the link, and so to them it seems random, but to the person who created it, it makes perfect sense.

So really, Ne is like storing unconscious templates for patterns, which you can then use to make spontaneous connections. You can also use those templates to notice when something is missing or incongruous. For example, I find it extremely easy to notice when someone is embroidering the truth or leaving out details--they're doing something that doesn't fit with the pattern, so to speak.

ISFP's are supposed to be able to do this with Se, and do it better than any other Type.. so how is it an Ne thing??

 

[Ruthie]

Ok. Cool. For the record I think you're smart, and I think you've expressed some really interesting ideas in other threads, so don't take anything that I've said personally, either.

Thanks. I think the same of you and the ideas you've posted.

 

[Ruthie]

^^ Big picture is more P than N, as is enjoying learning beyond simply what's practical.

You're the first person I've heard suggest that. In everything I've read, those were considered N over S.

Also, the big difference between Ne and what you're talking about isn't immediately apparent. Sure, brainstorming is a big deal. However, it's more the understanding that everything has an implicit effect on other things, and not only that, but immediately seeing those chains of logic, that makes Ne what it is. It's not so much "these are the logical connections between things (which is a function of Thinking)" as much as it is "If I do this, because of what I know about, this, this and this, I can be fairly certain that this will be the outcome".

Maybe. If it's something "intangible" than I definitely see where that's lacking in me - and in most Ss. But let me give an example: comedy (well... good comedy) is often mentioned as a Ne dominated field - it was in this thread as well. I can see that in the case of comedians who truly make obscure connections - say, Steve Martin or Stephen Colbert. The fantastical is substituted for the realistic. But on a thread earlier this month about Jon Stewart, I was the only one who suggested he was likely a Sensor. Besides the fact that he's funnier than most people (okay, everyone) I know, I don't see that he uses any kind of functional wizardry in his routine. It all seems pretty grounded and basic to me.

Now, please - I don't bring that up to start a discussion about Jon Stewart's (or any other comedian's) type. If you want to join that debate, there's already a thread for it. I just use it as an illustration of what I see as the difference between what actually is Ne - [the Martin/Colbert style] and what I think is often lumped in with Ne [pretty much any reality-based connection].

Is that kind of what you mean by the difference between logical connections (a function of Thinking) and instantaneous, completely random connections?

 

[Polaris]

ISFP's are supposed to be able to do this with Se, and do it better than any other Type.. so how is it an Ne thing??

If I were you, I would question my sources. :] Se does not involve making connections and seeing patterns, at least not as I understand it.

 

[PoprocksAndCoke]

Think about it in terms of television shows you watch. It helps some people.

House - Those "I just realized something moments" coming from the randomnest things people say that he associates with current situations. For example.