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2020 Democratic Party primary thread

Tellenbach

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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I am sorry, your post hurt my brain. eightleeightable? wtf are you on? Jokes are only funny if the majority of people get them if you are in a public space.

Muh serious response.

I prefer to call him "Doomberg" like Dim Bool.

im j0hn k8rry r8p0rting 4 dooty
 

Maou

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im j0hn k8rry r8p0rting 4 dooty
2m4ylm.jpg
 

Coriolis

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The free market approach works great with everything else. Look at the TV industry; in the 1980s, my 19 inch Zenith was around $300. Now I can get a 55 incher for $300. Why has the cost of TV gone down? Because of competition and innovation. Without competition, there is very little innovation. Why create something new if the government is the only customer and it's going to pay you regardless.

One big problem with collectivist strategies is it eliminates competition and competition is a major driver of innovation. You also sacrifice quality of care in the customer/business owner relationship; that's obliterated by the government. The biggest problem is the inefficiency in delivering service by the government. By the time any value gets to the recipient, 50% of the money has been wasted.

There are some great free market ideas out there that will fix the healthcare industry, such as tort reform and concierge health plans (You pay the doctor directly upfront for a year's service and you get unlimited doctors visits.). None of the Democrats will even discuss tort reform or any real reform.
Just what is that "everything else"? What is NOT part of it? Your "concierge health plan" is similar to what we had generations ago: if you can pay directly for medical care, you get it. If you can't, you don't, unless some doctor is going to provide it as a charity. What you describe is nice in theory. In practice, it actually exacerbates the gulf between haves and have-nots, with the difference made up haphazardly by charity, which happens only to the degree that people are motivated by something other than profit.
 

Virtual ghost

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The free market approach works great with everything else. Look at the TV industry; in the 1980s, my 19 inch Zenith was around $300. Now I can get a 55 incher for $300. Why has the cost of TV gone down?


Because one big commie country overseas is assembling them for peanuts ? :troll:
 

Virtual ghost

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To be honest I think that USA is set for some rude awakening with the current global trends.


Free market means that more competitive person should get the job. However dictatorship or just big government allows you to get more competitive manufacture than a free market democracy would ... and this is where screw up occurs. Because eventually the free market will favor a dictatorship if it is well organized, while free global trade will only boost that competitive edge. While on the other hand democracies due to their very nature can't produce things as cheaply as dictatorships, and therefore people will need to choose. Either there will be a democracy or there will be free global market. These two generally can't really co-exist in open game as long as dictatorships are all over the map (and due to nukes they will not go away).



Plus it isn't true that the government can't be innovative, that is simply a dangerous belief. Why was a first man is space a communist ? Why was a first satellite built by communists ? Why is America rising this whole storm against Huawei that is closely connected to a communist government ? Because it has an innovative and competitive edge that is hard to fight through market. Why my country is buying Russian energy? Because we are not getting it from a private owner and therefore we can perhaps get subsidized prices (Or because money can simply be invested back. What private oil company probably wouldn't really be interested since they are only into energy. Which we don't have and that is why we are buying it abroad). The biggest private company in my country was a mess until one day Russian government didn't overtake the ownership and the ex-owner went to hide in exile abroad. However after that twist the company is doing much better financially. Because the ex private owner was too closed in its own ways and was scaming people, what pushed away many. Also the last time I checked our lottery is owned by the government, what means that it's profit is going into the budget for healthcare, infrastructure or whatever. In a way gambling owned by the government is a tax that many like paying.




Smart use of government can give you all kinds of advantages in living and being more competitive on the market. It is simply a fact that there are stable alternatives to American way of doing things. Especially since the second world did some very thorough rethinking of paradigms, which are giving them the advantage at this point, it is simply possible to build consumerism without privately owned companies. In other words since the end of the cold war the communists have realized that Communism without consumerism can't really work. While the west is completely baffled and confused by this new "hybrid ideology" - State sponsored consumerism.
 

Tellenbach

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Coriolis said:
Just what is that "everything else"?

"Everything else" means services and products not subsidized (or not heavily subsidized) or run by the government. It would include most technology such as cars, computers, private educational institutions, and medical services like Lasik eye surgery and cosmetic surgery procedures. The cost curve inevitable spikes up when the government gets involved because businesses know they'll be able to charge much, much more for services than if the government were not involved.

You'll also get a lower quality product because competition is eliminated. There is no competition between one V.A. hospital and another, so where's the incentive for excellence? You'll also get longer waiting times because more people will visit doctors even if they don't need to because the service is "free". If they had to pay out of pocket, they probably won't visit the doctor for a cold or other low-level illness.

Your "concierge health plan" is similar to what we had generations ago: if you can pay directly for medical care, you get it. If you can't, you don't, unless some doctor is going to provide it as a charity. What you describe is nice in theory. In practice, it actually exacerbates the gulf between haves and have-nots, with the difference made up haphazardly by charity, which happens only to the degree that people are motivated by something other than profit.

Concierge plans are still around and consumers pay much less because the services are transparent and coctors don't have to do as much paperwork. You know what each service or product costs. This may shock you but the number 1 reason why people become doctors is the money. The profit motive is not something that's harmful; it's what motivates people to do better. You get better service from the waiter/waitress because of tips. What's wrong with that?

The "gulf between the haves and the have-nots" is also something that's perfectly healthy in a free society. Some people choose to pursue money and some don't. Some people choose to live out on the streets and some decide they want to start a business. People are happy when they have choices and a feeling of control in their lives. In primitive and totalitarian societies, there is equality but everyone is miserable as in North Korea and Venezuela because they don't have control over their lives. Income inequality just means people have opportunities to use their talents to make money.

If you are talented, you're not going to excel in places like Denmark or Norway because there are no opportunities. Here, if you have talent, the odds are great that you will succeed and be rewarded for your talents. I think that helping people fulfill their full potential is preferable to "equality".
 

Tellenbach

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Why Concierge Medicine Programs Boost Patient Satisfaction

One survey from Concierge Choice Physicians shows that patient satisfaction is high within concierge medicine with 98 percent of participants stating that communication and immediate contact with healthcare providers has improved. Additionally, 98 percent of survey takers are satisfied with office staff and their ability to answer questions while 97 percent would recommend the services to their friends.

What's wrong with doing something that actually works and that people love? :D
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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To be honest I think that USA is set for some rude awakening with the current global trends.


Free market means that more competitive person should get the job. However dictatorship or just big government allows you to get more competitive manufacture than a free market democracy would ... and this is where screw up occurs. Because eventually the free market will favor a dictatorship if it is well organized, while free global trade will only boost that competitive edge. While on the other hand democracies due to their very nature can't produce things as cheaply as dictatorships, and therefore people will need to choose. Either there will be a democracy or there will be free global market. These two generally can't really co-exist in open game as long as dictatorships are all over the map (and due to nukes they will not go away).

I agree with this. I think the splash Bloomberg made (although it probably won't succeed this time) is indicative of the trend things might go in if the "free global market" is the one that wins out.

I know which one I prefer.
 

Tellenbach

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Warren should just get out of the race; make a deal with Bernie and drop out in exchange for the VP slot. Once Warren leaves, Bernie's support will be over 30% and no one can stop him barring brokered convention shenanigans. In fact, Mayor Pete may want to consider the same strategy; he can't win, but he has enough leverage to squeeze out a VP slot from Bernie in exchange for dropping out and an endorsement. We'll probably see it after the South Carolina primary.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Members Of Nevada's Largest Union Defied Their Leadership To Support Bernie Sanders

Some workers who spoke to BuzzFeed News said they support Sanders’ Medicare for All proposal, even though they appreciate the union health care they have, because they have friends and relatives who don’t have union health care and worry about what would happen if they lost their jobs.
They'd probably just pay an exorbitant premium. Don't see what the problem is.

Across the Las Vegas strip, the pattern of Culinary union members backing Sanders despite the conflict with leadership appeared to be repeating. In CNN’s caucus entrance poll, Sanders had the by far most support of any candidate amongst union members, with 34%.

If union bosses had actually endorsed someone, maybe that would have made a difference? I'm really starting to feel like I'm watching a good version of 2016. The incompetence of establishment Democrats is quite shocking.
 

ceecee

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CNN was showing a protest of the Culinary union members against Bernie; some lady was almost in tears because her husband had asthma and the plan covered it. I can't imagine this playing well in states like Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Sure, Bernie may get endorsements from the union bosses, but the rank and file won't like it.

This is the other way around but I'm sure you know everything.

Nevada Culinary Union Members Defy Leadership To Back Bernie Sanders

LAS VEGAS — Despite the leadership of Nevada’s largest union criticizing Bernie Sanders over his health care plan in the lead-up to the state's presidential caucus, the majority of union members caucusing at the Bellagio Hotel and Casino on the Las Vegas strip backed Sanders on Saturday.

Some workers who spoke to BuzzFeed News said they support Sanders’ Medicare for All proposal, even though they appreciate the union health care they have, because they have friends and relatives who don’t have union health care and worry about what would happen if they lost their jobs.

What did I say? Yeah.
 

Tellenbach

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ceecee said:
What did I say? Yeah.

That's one union with members voting in a Democratic caucus. Let's see how union members vote in the General election. For all you know, they may be participating in Operation Chaos hoping that Bernie wins the primary because he's the weakest candidate.
 

ceecee

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That's one union with members voting in a Democratic caucus. Let's see how union members vote in the General election. For all you know, they may be participating in Operation Chaos hoping that Bernie wins the primary because he's the weakest candidate.

lol of course. Move your goalpost.
 

Bush

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Nevada Caucus Results | 2020 Presidential Primary Elections

Hmm.

Remember that one time someone from outside a major party's establishment joined in the primaries, was treated like a joke, gained support from a pissed off working class, was ostracized by many in the same party with talks of kicking him out all throughout as he gained momentum, ended up winning the nomination, ended up winning the election, and then slowly took over the party and turned it into a bunch of cowardly bootlickers? It happened in 2016, and it could happen again. Hopefully minus that last part or two, though; YMMV.
 
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