2020 Democratic Party primary thread

[Jaguar]

I want someone to tell it straight after 3 years of lies 24/7.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

If they do, they lose the election. Who can take seriously their claim that Trump has no respect for democratic values if they themselves prove to have no respect for democratic values? I guarantee you people would not turn out for their anointed candidate and they'd see another "shocking" unanticipated defeat. The only smart course of action they have is to play along if Bernie wins a majority of delegates. That said, because they're the DNC, there is no guarantee that they will do the smart thing.

I wonder how somebody can say that, though, and then support James Carville's "wisdom", who is pretty much part of the Democratic establishment. You must like his accent, I guess.

Bernie can not win because the DNC will not let him. They would rather have Trump to scream about and impeach again. Bernie isn't unelectable for any other reason than the DNC will not let him win and will sabotage him anyway they can.

As such Carville is correct. It isn't pretty. It isn't nice. But you just saw what happened in Iowa. These folks are the most Machiavellian people ever. They will do anything to stop Bernie and will accept 4 more years of Trump if that is what it takes.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Bernie can not win because the DNC will not let him. They would rather have Trump to scream about and impeach again. Bernie isn't unelectable for any other reason than the DNC will not let him win and will sabotage him anyway they can.

As such Carville is correct. It isn't pretty. It isn't nice. But you just saw what happened in Iowa. These folks are the most Machiavellian people ever. They will do anything to stop Bernie and will accept 4 more years of Trump if that is what it takes.

Republicans tried to sabotage Trump, too, though. It didn't work. Most Republicans didn't care that Barbara Bush didn't like Donald Trump. The Carville article I posted reminds us of the Never Trump phenomenon. That ended up being extremely irrelevant.


I think what 2016 showed us (or me, anyway) is that the conventional wisdom about the power and effectiveness of conventional party organizations as well as media figures is not as important as we have all been led to believe. I'm well aware the DNC hates Bernie. But if he does well enough, they have to choose between either destroying their own party or sucking it up. I think it's possible that they have a big enough grasp of pragmatism to understand that.

Consider.... the whole reason why Bernie has the power to shape the narrative around Iowa is because his campaign pushed to have the first and final alignments publically available. The fact that they budged on something like that means that they recognize that to seem degree they have to adapt to the realities of the current moment. If the caucus flailing is deliberate, it's telling that the best they can do is something as ineffectual as giving Buttigeig a paltry 2 more delegates.

 

[Stigmata]

I want Bernie vs Trump, just so Bernie supporters can finally stfu when Trump wins against him in 2020. They have not stopped since 2015.

Then even if the DNC bites the bullet, and Bernie wins. It would be a functionless and dead presidency.

Why are you the way that you are??

 

[Jaguar]

Klobuchar did well.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Klobuchar did well.

Good, she can take votes away from Buttigieg.

 

[Jaguar]

Good, she can take votes away from Buttigieg.

That's not my goal. Or hers.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

That's not my goal. Or hers.

I both know, and don't care.

 

[Jaguar]

I both know, and don't care.

I know you don't care about the USA. That's obvious.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I know you don't care about the USA. That's obvious.

Mother Russia will crush you.

 

[Jaguar]

Mother Russia will crush you.

Bring it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Bring it.

Your power is feeble against Россия-матушка, queen among nations! Even our beasts crush you. You have no tigers, only stupid fat bears!

 

[Jaguar]

Your power is feeble against Россия-матушка, queen among nations! Even our beasts crush you. You have no tigers, only stupid fat bears!

What kind of weed are you smoking tonight?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

What kind of weed are you smoking tonight?

The finest weed in all of Россия-матушка; Russian weed queen among weeds!

 

[Tomb1]

Bernie can not win because the DNC will not let him. They would rather have Trump to scream about and impeach again. Bernie isn't unelectable for any other reason than the DNC will not let him win and will sabotage him anyway they can.

As such Carville is correct. It isn't pretty. It isn't nice. But you just saw what happened in Iowa. These folks are the most Machiavellian people ever. They will do anything to stop Bernie and will accept 4 more years of Trump if that is what it takes.

That kind of forecasting doesn't work because you're trying to analyze what democrats (DNC) will do through the lens of somebody who doesn't despise Trump. If Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was the president, and Ron Paul the favored nominee, I would bet that the republican party hates Cortez enough to unify around Paul just to get Cortez out of there. You also have to remember that in the last republican primaries, the RNC tried to stop Trump. A memo leaked to the effect that the RNC did not want Trump but were finally giving in on the wager that it would not be able to stop him. The DNC is capable of caving in a similar manner if it (or obama, et al.) cannot stop Bernie. (There's also other factors to consider -- the extent that Bernie can adjust himself to the center and/or the extent that a lot of the democrats are not as moderate at heart as they present.)

Pelosi is already starting to close the gap with the liberal wing just in case:

"Nancy Pelosi on Friday launched a fresh attack...

The Democratic House speaker, in a searing editorial for The Washington Post titled “McConnell and the GOP Senate are accomplices to Trump’s wrongdoing,” accused them of “normalizing lawlessness and rejecting the checks and balances of our Constitution.”

Nancy Pelosi Rips Republicans For ‘Normalizing Lawlessness’ In Scathing Op-Ed

“After much deliberation, I have decided that I will not use my presence at a state ceremony to normalize Trump’s lawless conduct & subversion of the Constitution,” Ocasio-Cortez tweeted Tuesday afternoon.

Ocasio-Cortez, Pressley to boycott State of the Union | TheHill

Its too early to do any competent forecasting, but the last few decades does show that the democratic party wins when it throws its hat in the ring with young, likable, articulate, smooth talkers (Clinton, Obama) and gets fucked when it throws its hat in the ring with low charisma, unattractive, unlikable bores (John Kerry, Hillary Clinton)...certainly Buttigieg fits into the Clinton/Obama mold in terms of presentation, so the electorate might just be more comfortable with him at the end of the day. The question is are the democratic voters crazy enough to go for a 38 year old mayor (that would certainly be a low intelligence decision even if buttigieg ended up winning)...Keep in mind that even if Trump loses, he's still got enough money and political capital on the right to stay in control of the Republican Party for at least another four years.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

That kind of forecasting doesn't work because you're trying to analyze what democrats (DNC) will do through the lens of somebody who doesn't despise Trump. If Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was the president, and Ron Paul the favored nominee, I would bet that the republican party hates Cortez enough to unify around Paul just to get Cortez out of there. You also have to remember that in the last republican primaries, the RNC tried to stop Trump. A memo leaked to the effect that the RNC did not want Trump but were finally giving in on the wager that it would not be able to stop him. The DNC is capable of caving in a similar manner if it (or obama, et al.) cannot stop Bernie. (There's also other factors to consider -- the extent that Bernie can adjust himself to the center and/or the extent that a lot of the democrats are not as moderate at heart as they present.)

Pelosi is already starting to close the gap with the liberal wing just in case:

"Nancy Pelosi on Friday launched a fresh attack...

The Democratic House speaker, in a searing editorial for The Washington Post titled “McConnell and the GOP Senate are accomplices to Trump’s wrongdoing,” accused them of “normalizing lawlessness and rejecting the checks and balances of our Constitution.”

Nancy Pelosi Rips Republicans For ‘Normalizing Lawlessness’ In Scathing Op-Ed

“After much deliberation, I have decided that I will not use my presence at a state ceremony to normalize Trump’s lawless conduct & subversion of the Constitution,” Ocasio-Cortez tweeted Tuesday afternoon.

Ocasio-Cortez, Pressley to boycott State of the Union | TheHill

Its too early to do any competent forecasting, but the last few decades does show that the democratic party wins when it throws its hat in the ring with young, likable, articulate, smooth talkers (Clinton, Obama) and gets fucked when it throws its hat in the ring with low charisma, unattractive, unlikable bores (John Kerry, Hillary Clinton)...certainly Buttigieg fits into the Clinton/Obama mold in terms of presentation, so the electorate might just be more comfortable with him at the end of the day. The question is are the democratic voters crazy enough to go for a 38 year old mayor (that would certainly be a low intelligence decision even if buttigieg ended up winning)...Keep in mind that even if Trump loses, he's still got enough money and political capital on the right to stay in control of the Republican Party for at least another four years.

Only a really blind person can't see that the DNC will do everything it can to stop Bernie.

They don't hate him, they fear him.

The Democrat party today is the party of upper class technocrats and billionaires pretending to be for the "people". But since they despise most of their former working class base, they use various groups to cover for this.

The billionaires that fund the DNC see Bernie as an existential threat. He would destroy their game and couldn't be convinced otherwise like Obama was. Bernie isn't for sale and he will never go along with Wall Street.

They will give lip service to him, to placate his supporters, but Bernie threatens because he actually wants to put in place the values the party allegedly espouses.

Neither party has really lived up to its values and both are just power vehicles for motivated individuals to use in enhance their power. Trump faced hostility in 16 from the RNC for the very same reasons. People stopped believing in conventional politicians. Obama's betrayal was particularly strong for this. On the Right, the Tea Party got taken over by the Kochs and betrayed those who wanted government reform.

The DNC is a stronger power apparatus than the GOP and can enforce its will better. The RNC did all they could to stop Trump, but Hillary actually got her media allies to support Trump because they thought he was beatable. Trump doesn't have that option and the DNC will continue to use their media allies to isolate Bernie.

It just isn't the same dynamic.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Only a really blind person can't see that the DNC will do everything it can to stop Bernie.

Sure. But you overestimate the competence of the DNC. If the Iowa clusterfuck was the best they could do, I'm not impressed. You know what might have been an effective strategy for the DNC? If they got Obama to get behind Mayor Peter, or Biden during the past year. Instead, while he criticized Bernie, he neglected to support a candidate against him. His support could have crystallized and solidified anti-Bernie forces. Instead, they're fractured among 2 or 3 candidates.

If we have the same geniuses who thought it was a good idea to encourage Trump because he wasn't "electable" at the helm, we don't have much to worry about. Part of the reason the DNC sucks so bad is that they're completely inept and clueless.

I just went to a political meeting today, and while it wasn't for a specific candidate, the energy there was incredible. People realize things are fucked up and the media narratives don't hold as much power as they used to.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Sure. But you overestimate the competence of the DNC. If the Iowa clusterfuck was the best they could do, I'm not impressed. You know what might have been an effective strategy for the DNC? If they got Obama to get behind Mayor Peter, or Biden during the past year. Instead, while he criticized Bernie, he neglected to support a candidate against him. His support could have crystallized and solidified anti-Bernie forces. Instead, they're fractured among 2 or 3 candidates.

If we have the same geniuses who thought it was a good idea to encourage Trump because he wasn't "electable" at the helm, we don't have much to worry about. Part of the reason the DNC sucks so bad is that they're completely inept and clueless.

I just went to a political meeting today, and while it wasn't for a specific candidate, the energy there was incredible. People realize things are fucked up and the media narratives don't hold as much power as they used to.

The Iowa chaos actually benefited the DNC. It hyped a new candidate of the moment, one who has the support of oligarchs, vulture capitalists, Hollywood, the War Party, Big Tech, etc. The chaos prevented Bernie from getting momentum.

Bloomberg has committed to pay his staff through November, so he is planning to run either as the Democratic nominee or an independent. Bloomberg funded most of the 2018 Democratic effort, so he carries substantial influence as well.

Unless Bernie is willing to run as an independent if he doesn't get the nomination, he has no leverage. And they know from 2016 that Bernie will not do it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The Iowa chaos actually benefited the DNC. It hyped a new candidate of the moment, one who has the support of oligarchs, vulture capitalists, Hollywood, the War Party, Big Tech, etc. The chaos prevented Bernie from getting momentum.

Naw, he's still got plenty of momentum.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Naw, he's still got plenty of momentum.

The person who appears to have momentum is Mayor Pete.