B
brainheart
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Heh I naturally interpret every statement I hear literally.
Literal interpretation of language: isn't that a sensing thing?
Heh I naturally interpret every statement I hear literally.
According to Jungian Lenore Thomson, Ti is actually subjective because it is an individual, perceptual logic vs the universal objectivity of extraverted thinking. In other words, dominant introverted thinkers have a unique way of assessing situations and problems while dominant Te- users adhere to established laws of logic. Not to be nitpicky or anything...
How does primary Ti compare with tertiary Ti(as in INFJs)?
As a Tertiary Function, Ti leads IFJs to.... ?
...."advise others on the wisdom of their choices"(edited from Lenorep.231 on INFJs.) vis a vis Ti as a primary attribute. Also, tertiary Ti leads to an important emphasis on personal experience. Yet unlike dominant and secondary Ti, tertiary Ti can often lead sweeping generalizations induced from sparse evidence. Tertiary Ti leads can lead to a narcissistic focus on your own experience, or the experience of people who stand with you. If someone disagrees with you, then they must be naive. This kind of narrow view is often used defensively. Especially when combined with dominant Ni, tertiary Ti can be used to defend bizarre theories that are completely unfalsifiable.
I think Ti is what causes a lot of the "aloof and detached" descriptions.
How does primary Ti compare with tertiary Ti(as in INFJs)?
Accompanied (for me) by me thinking, "I wonder why she asked me that, what is her purpose here? Was she being sincere? She's not doing anything inconsistent and conversation is within the normal bounds of polite casual interaction, so chances are she was. And while I did say good, my daughter is a composite of strengths and weaknesses including <a, b,c ... z>, I wonder if 'good' was the best nuanced qualifier to assess my daughter..." etc.
Now you get another reason why I avoided interaction for so long. It's exhausting.
But you can see why Ti socializing is laborious, and why, because we actually respond to what was asked -- no more, no less -- and take time to learn the 'social rules of engagement,' people might think we are aloof, or unengaged, or argumentative, or whatever.
To go along with that, it's the illusion of understanding that scares me. Because at this point I've realized that I might think I understood what they meant, but I easily might have been wrong, and there's no good way for me to check, so any conversation I have is fraught with potholes and landmines that might blow up a few weeks from now.
The only INTP I know is my husband, some things I've noticed about him:
- Quite a few people are intimidated by him, most often female ESFJs but also some male ISFJs and some male and female ESTJs.
I have the most experience with how ESFJs see him, so here is a bit more of my perspective on that.
ESFJ's view:
- unapproachable
- intelligent
- cold
- critical
- intelligent
- stubborn
- intelligent
I have had some come to me worried that he didn't like them and wanting to know why. You can also tell from their body language whenever he comes into the room and the fact that they very rarely address him. Questions will be directed to me in a round about sort of way. Some have made remarks (when he wasn't around) about how smart he is, with almost a reverent or hushed voice (it's very weird).
All of this is probably because he doesn't say much around them. If he finds conversation boring, he will just sit there and not say anything. Not in an aggressive way, just not interested. Then when he does say something, they invariably give it huge significance (this is quite amusing, they do this even when he says something that from anyone else would be taken as a normal comment). It seems there are two main things that throw them off: his lack of playing by normal social rules and their view of him being more intelligent than them. Both of these things cause them to be unsure how to interact with him.
INFP (me):
It's a little tricky for me to separate the Ne from the Ti; when we're together he can be quite silly.
- Intelligent (of course)
- Calm and collected
- Analyzing
Hmm I'm having trouble thinking of things that are just Ti... everything is too interconnected.
Other random things:
- Has a hard time sticking with things (figure it out and then gets bored). This is particularly noticeable in computer games. He's so excited to play a new one, but I can't think of the last time he finished one.
- Great sense of humour
- Doesn't care what other people think about him
- Dislikes things that are commonly seen as trendy/cool. Has a negative bias (which he admits) toward things that are popular
- Dislikes things that are obvious or unsubtle (in movies, music, conversation, etc)
- Can be very critical of other people in an observational way
- Not critical of me
- Reacts strongly (for him) against anything he perceives as manipulation. 2up
- And many many more things that I can't think of right now because I'm too tired.
Wow that is kinda nuts. I personally tend to take each question at face value and answer concisely. I was told by a lawyer once, that I was the perfect witness lol. Now I am just starting to get to the point where I sometimes think "Hey they are just trying to make conversation. Maybe I can throw in some other little anecdote...."
When I was younger the only way I really got to know people is that I had to be in a group where I could throw weird/witty/funny comments, and if someone liked that then that eventually broke the ice enough that we could get to know each other better.
Yeah that describes me pretty well. The only part I don't relate to is all the extra analyzing underneath. I guess that is what separates the Ti-doms from the Ti-auxs.
This is probably another difference. If I'm not sure what someone meant then'll I rephrase a question several different ways and use active listening and all that to close any communication gaps. Although with heavy F types all of that activity can sometimes make communication even more muddled. Like they might not understand how I'm trying to clarify things and instead the mutual confusion simply grows.
Yeah, I've noticed that with some INTPs, others are more like me.
I have been wondering if it's Ne vs Ti dominance (check some of the discussions of various types of INTPs). Ti dominant INTPs seem to be more minimalist and self-preservationalist in nature, not as much information passes easily out the mouth; the Ne based ones seems far more social/gregarious, with ideas pinging off everywhere.
Or it could just be a sense of danger starting in childhood, where I wanted to make my parents happy and felt like I didn't know to do that, so I sent Ne zipping out in every direction all the time to make sure I didn't take a misstep.
Yeah, that was sort of my initial attempts at socializing. I have to tell you, I had a really hard time when someone else was funnier or more dominant than me because I then no longer had a role to play or way to easily relate. But the humor pathway is pretty good, it makes people happy, it helps them look on you with interest, and it is like casting "lures" so that people who find you interesting can follow up.
Active listening is a pretty good practice, actually. It can start to be restrictive or a cliche in itself if the person never acquires an intuitive feel for conversation, but the principles are pretty valuable.
According to Jungian Lenore Thomson, Ti is actually subjective because it is an individual, perceptual logic vs the universal objectivity of extraverted thinking. In other words, dominant introverted thinkers have a unique way of assessing situations and problems while dominant Te- users adhere to established laws of logic. Not to be nitpicky or anything...
I take it, by "established laws of logic", you mean "universal", with the emphasis on "laws". Since extraverted judgment deals with agreed upon principles, which is what we often think of by "established". "Laws" might be universal principles, which are "established" by virtue of being universal, not simply by agreement.In summary, my point is that Ti types tend to be more in tune with the established laws of logic than the Te types and not less. For this reason, the Ti type is much more common than the Te type in disciplines where a heavy reliance on logic is necessary, such as mathematics, physics or philosophy.
I take it, by "established laws of logic", you mean "universal", with the emphasis on "laws". Since extraverted judgment deals with agreed upon principles, which is what we often think of by "established". "Laws" might be universal principles, which are "established" by virte of being unioversal, not simply by agreement.
Many environments (school, corporations, etc...) are not particularly Ne friendly so I usually just shut up and probably act more like an INTP. On the other hand the pastor of my church is an ENFP, so that ends up being an Ne friendly environment.
Heh whenever I find someone as funny as I am we end playing off each other until everyone else dies laughing, or they go crazy because they can't take it all. That wanting to have a unique "role" might be more of an introvert trait. I don't know.
I've kinda done active listening my whole life. It was just a few years ago that I realized people actually had a name for it. To me I just like to sum up what they just said in my own words to check if I understand what they are saying.
Extroverted Judgment is concerned with the agreed upon principle not by definition, but by convenience. The nature of extroverted judgment is such that judgment is most easily activated when dealing with the external environment. Hence its nature is to have a tendency to make judgments and so in response to the external environment.
Judgment deals with principles, because extroverted judgment is focused on the external environment it tends to be concerned with rules and conventions. Some of the principles that Extroverted Judgment deals with are supported by nothing but convention.
Introverted Thinking is the function that is the most adept at engaging such principles.
I generally agree. Fe is more convention-oriented ('what works to manage people inside the culture') and Te is more universal ('what works to fix this problem / resolve this issue'), but neither is really dealing with "inherent values" and thus universal principles, they are concerned with "what works -- and has been proven to work -- to produce the desired outcome.".
Sometimes if the world changes and the Je thinking does not, the Je convention no longer works. ."
Theoretically correct.