^ you've said it twice now, but i really don't think you do get what i'm saying. i feel like you've essentially patted me on the head, said that's nice, and told me to run along and play while you use me as an example to the class of how not to cheer up the INFP because my "tactic" was to use something superficial.
oh well. god forbid an extravert have anything but superficiality to lend to the conversation. :rolli:
Ah well, I don't think you quite grasp what I am saying either. I wasn't seeking to belittle your effort so much as to clarify why this mindset in an INFP is a difficult one to counter, and that the ways which may work quite well with others don't work as well with INFPs. It's not any fault of your own, but a complexity in the INFP temperament that causes people to hit their head against a wall. It's been the subject of threads before for the very reason that most people don't know how to deal with an INFP in a mindset like this. Use of Te, INFP's being inferior, makes all the difference between ENFPs & INFPs in this case.
Adasta said:People are at times jealous, and at other times infuriated, of our ability to treat those things which cause problems in others' lives - bills, money, status, etc. - with such utter disdain as to render them almost worthless.
it's really awful when someone declares that they see the things people have worked so hard towards as worthless, when they make it clear that they think that they're better than people who value those things... the way i see it, this sounds like your perspective is too limited to see how those things could be legitimately, ethically valuable. i get angry and engage Te in this thread because i hear the self-righteousness in statements like these. if another person doesn't share your same values, then they aren't going to see you in the same positive light as you see yourself.
God, look at this guy with all his bloody beliefs and ideologies. Who does he think he is, trying to make us all feel bad? Just because he doesn't care about something, we're all meant to love what he loves? He's so stuck-up!
from the other end, it's sounding like it's okay for an INFP to judge based on their values, but i can't tell them i'm judging them back or they get more upset. and if i don't agree with their values, then the things they do that they see as being good for the world, i don't really see as being something good. so it's not like they've really done anything for me, but they feel like they have, so they shouldn't be treated negatively. plus then the INFP hasn't opened up much, but others are seen as cruel for not making an effort to get to know the INFP. i mean, i care and i want to know what you're like on a deep level, but you're the one who is pushing people away and yet occasionally emoting self-righteousness, and then you're in existential turmoil because of it.
it makes me feel like this: .
To say it "soundlike it's okay" for INFPs to make value judgements implies that, conversely, it may not be okay and, what's more, suggests that there is a certain moralism about the whole thing. All of my judgements are based on values. If you do not agree with my values, then you do not agree with me. This isn't a problem for me because I'm quite "live and let live" in that regard and I have friends with whom I disagree about some things. However, if we disagree on something I consider to be fundamental, we could not be friends. This may again seem self-righteous, but it's not so much a formed opinion as a feeling - and that's what friendships are based on (at least to me). I can handle a certain degree of political dissent between people in my group of friends but if you are completely opposed to something I feel is right (note the words used there!) then it is very difficult for me to be anything more than a friendly acquaintance. [...] I have frequently been called self-righteous so you are completely accurate in your estimations of INFPs! I'm just trying to give you an insider's perspective into why INFPs seem so soppy and then suddenly so gruff.
Keeping a healthy balance among the 3 categories of values is essential for me if I'm not to be bogged down worrying about every single thing that offends me, especially those that don't offend other people.
Like I implied in my earlier post, its a bit of a push/pull situation for us, especially 4w5 INFPs. We have difficulty defining clear boundaries with regards to interaction with others, even for our ourselves. We want to be around others but certain factors drive us away. Its about us finding a healthy balance; something that's easier said than done.but like, in this situation, it's the person who's saying they don't want a deep relationship who's creating the disjoint. so it's like the INFP = panda thing doesn't really apply here. it's that the panda doesn't want to be around you, not that you don't want to understand the panda, you know?
...
i think where the "not okay" thing comes in for me is the whole situation seems unfair to other people who might be willing to reach out to you, but you don't want to have any bond with them because they're not good enough. which, i totally get that. i certainly push some people away because i really just don't approve of them. but then it's not the panda situation. it's not The World vs INFP. it's INFP vs People They Don't Like.
I think this is more of a discussion of the problems and causes involved.maybe what i've missed here is that i thought this was a problem someone wanted solving. like, why do INFPs feel like the world is against them sometimes and what can we do about it. but if it's just about bemoaning that feeling, and not really wanting to change anything... i mean, okay, that's your choice.
but like, in this situation, it's the person who's saying they don't want a deep relationship who's creating the disjoint. so it's like the INFP = panda thing doesn't really apply here. it's that the panda doesn't want to be around you, not that you don't want to understand the panda, you know?
maybe what i've missed here is that i thought this was a problem someone wanted solving. like, why do INFPs feel like the world is against them sometimes and what can we do about it. but if it's just about bemoaning that feeling, and not really wanting to change anything... i mean, okay, that's your choice.
i think where the "not okay" thing comes in for me is the whole situation seems unfair to other people who might be willing to reach out to you, but you don't want to have any bond with them because they're not good enough. which, i totally get that. i certainly push some people away because i really just don't approve of them. but then it's not the panda situation. it's not The World vs INFP. it's INFP vs People They Don't Like.
I used to have this feeling of being a "last resort" friend.
.... somewhat smart & independent & creative. I realized it was not so much that people did not like me, than that they were intimidated by me or thought I was disinterested, because there's that aloof aspect to me too. ... I think the INFP demeanor only suits most people in a one-on-one situation, namely, a "therapy session".
What I do want to say is that if we focus on specific false premises they become our manifestations in this reality. .....
It is truly from within that when we stop trusting within we stop trusting without and when we stop trusting we become further disenchanted and believe that because the world is designed to function entirely away from the functionality of who we are then we are expressing in a down regulated way and our body affects our thoughts then.
We are strange creatures that don't naturally fit into society
Once the INFP realizes, hey, I'm not simply a panda, I can be many things, then they feel less threatened by externalities and will let more people in (the ego broadens, to encompass more). I know I've realized at times in my life that I was clinging to what I saw as factors in my identity & that these were quite frivolous. I didn't need these things to define me, or I could be more than them, and when I realized that, I was more open to others, as they did not threaten these aspects anymore. Basically, the INFP realizes that being himself & connecting to others are not mutually exclusive.
What I do want to say is that if we focus on specific false premises they become our manifestations in this reality. .....
It is truly from within that when we stop trusting within we stop trusting without and when we stop trusting we become further disenchanted and believe that because the world is designed to function entirely away from the functionality of who we are then we are expressing in a down regulated way and our body affects our thoughts then.
We are strange creatures that don't naturally fit into society
Once the INFP realizes, hey, I'm not simply a panda, I can be many things, then they feel less threatened by externalities and will let more people in (the ego broadens, to encompass more). I know I've realized at times in my life that I was clinging to what I saw as factors in my identity & that these were quite frivolous. I didn't need these things to define me, or I could be more than them, and when I realized that, I was more open to others, as they did not threaten these aspects anymore. Basically, the INFP realizes that being himself & connecting to others are not mutually exclusive.
There can very much be an elitist or self-righteous aspect to it, yes. Once again, it's the INFP's problem. It's also indicative of a narrow ego, an ego that feels threatened easily. Back to the panda, the INFP does not want to give up the unique identity, or the safety of the panda cage (e4 or 9, respectively), because it's maintaining their identity. Once the INFP realizes, hey, I'm not simply a panda, I can be many things, then they feel less threatened by externalities and will let more people in (the ego broadens, to encompass more). I know I've realized at times in my life that I was clinging to what I saw as factors in my identity & that these were quite frivolous. I didn't need these things to define me, or I could be more than them, and when I realized that, I was more open to others, as they did not threaten these aspects anymore. Basically, the INFP realizes that being himself & connecting to others are not mutually exclusive.
(Emphasis mine)As Fours become more fearful that they cannot find a solid identity in themselves, they begin to create one out of whatever random tendencies they find. Thus, matters of taste, likes and dislikes, and emotional reactions become the materials which Fours use to construct an identity. Because their sense of self is so tenuous, however, Fours begin to put a great deal of weight on what would be for others relatively unimportant traits. ("I only wear black." "I listen to Puccini, but never Wagner.") It is important to note that most of these personal traits function by negation. Fours may not know who they are, but they certainly believe they know who they are not. While these idiosyncrasies can be fairly harmless in and of themselves, as Fours increasingly depend on them to figure out who they are, they begin to paint themselves into a corner. In the interest of maintain a narrowly defined self-image, Fours may refuse to engage in many basic activities necessary to live their lives. ("Poets don’t work in an office.")
Yeah I have been/am a music and film snob. I realise its rather lame but its hard for me not to cling to such things. You're so right about it being an attempt to steal others' artistry and claim for yourself. The description I quoted actually advocates e4s create artistic works for this reason; to cultivate and communicate a true self rather than merely an amalgamation of others.^ Great passage...that's definitely it for me. I can fall into the trap of defining myself by my tastes. There can be a disdain towards those who I see as having lesser taste. I got over my music snobbery some years ago for the most part, but I still feel traces of it now & then. It's a very lazy way to establish identity too; you're really just stealing, and it amounts to nothing unique at all. You know this deep down too, the then fear of being uncovered as some fraud just reinforces the tendency to keep people at a distance. The integration of 1 qualities helps you create an identity based on real merit, things you've actually accomplished yourself, not just stuff you like & want to be associated with to assert how different you are. Really, only then do you rise above the cliche anyway.