After reading the backstory: I don't think "you deserved what you got", nor do I think that what she was doing was appropriate or excusable -- and at the same time, I think she had legitimate reason to be upset.
Agreed. Her feelings were hurt by my actions, and that's valid.
EJCC said:
I find it kind of funny that you chose this example, which is so obviously colored by personal issues and relationship drama, to ask huge generalized questions about whether these two types can EVER be peaceful and happy together -- when, IMO, it's obvious that like [MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] said, any two types can be happy together, and type doesn't predict compatibility that well. Did you take a while to process the non-type-relatedness of your situation, or were you trying to find a typology-related excuse to vent, or what?
^ I don't mean for that to come across as harsh, so don't take it personally. I'm just confused, is all.
Oh, it's totally fine.
It's some of both, I think, and then some. As I said in my response to Saturned, this particular situation is deep, multifaceted, and impossible to solve via an exchange of ideas on a typology forum. Of course I'm looking at this as more than a clash of types, and yes, I believe that it's obvious that two people of any type can make a friendship work.
This whole thing went down less than a week ago, and while I'd normally like to consider myself skilled at choosing my words, my personal drama bothered me enough to cause my initial posting to swing too far into emotional/personal territory. I intended to use my situation as a springboard for discussion about how 1s view 7s and vice versa; I know a couple of other 7s in real life, but not too many 1s, so I figured that it wouldn't hurt to toss some thoughts around. It would be silly to reduce my issue to one specifically concerned with type theory alone, but I can see why it looks that way from my original post(s). No worries - I'm definitely not losing sight of the big picture, which is ultimately the dominating force behind most of my decisions anyway.
I think I meant to initiate a thread that dealt more specifically with the problems 1s sometimes run into with 7s and 7s with 1s, how other people prefer to deal with those problems, etc. You know, fresh perspectives. (I appreciate the ones I'm getting, too - thanks again to everybody contributing here.)
EJCC said:
Type 1 carries these judgments around constantly. The vast majority of the time, those judgments don't make us angry. They just sit there. The minority of the time, those judgments might make us angry, and if we lash out, we'll exclaim the judgments at others. After the fact, we'll feel horrible, but it won't be because we didn't mean it -- it'll be because we never should have said those judgments, and the judgments usually aren't that huge a deal.
A personal example: I have a few friends who flake out on things regularly. That isn't something I like, but usually I accept it, and schedule around it, assuming that they either won't show, or will be late. But this past fall, one of those friends totally took me aback by completely standing me up, choosing to eat by herself because she "needed to recharge" and without having the courtesy to tell me. I lashed out at her via text -- something along the lines of "I wish you'd have the courtesy of letting me know the next time you're going to ignore the plans we make" -- and then almost immediately apologized for lashing out at her, saying we could reschedule for some other time. Now, eight or so months later: I still think she's a flake, I still think it's ridiculous that she finds that behavior acceptable, but I regret how rudely I acted, and wished I could have made the conversation more constructive.
This is part of what scares me, unfortunately. I know that my friend almost certainly meant everything she said to me. It was all so intense, though - I can't help wondering why she chose my companionship to begin with! It really began to feel as though some very big part of her actually hates who I am as a person. It may be at war with the part of her that enjoys my presence and has fun with me, but it apparently exists nonetheless, and I feel disheartened at the idea that she disapproves of me so strongly at her core. She may regret her delivery, but I'm sure she truly felt everything.
Would it be reasonable to ask if 1s typically feel a lot of push/pull in their attitude toward others?
EJCC said:
I have a friend who's an ENFP and I think tritype 378 -- strong 7 fix -- and the fact that I've been friends with her for so long, has trained me pretty well to deal with people who make their life decisions this way. I think it's also taught me that life is never as predictable and linear as a 1w2 would like to believe.
I do disapprove of some decisions she's made. For example: she doesn't want to go to college, and while that isn't something that I disapprove of in itself -- plenty of people do well without undergrad degrees -- I think that
1) Everything she could possibly want to do career-wise would benefit from college; and
2) Her reasons for not going ("I'm not meant for college") are almost definitely based on fear of college, fear of failure, and fear of boredom, but she's in denial about it.
I've told her how I feel, once or maybe twice. She knows my opinion, and will go off and do whatever she wants; she's a free spirit. In the meantime... There's a lot of wisdom in the Serenity Prayer, regardless of whether or not you're religious. When there's nothing I can do to stop her, there's no point in keeping on fighting to change her mind. It's a waste of energy.
I think that any 1 who has a big group of friends who disagree with them on key issues, has learned to accept this same philosophy. We do have an internalized "right" and "wrong" way of going about things, but at the same time, surrounding yourself with only people who agree with you becomes a bit cultish, and no one would be there to correct you if you did end up being wrong.
/tangent
I was
just thinking of the Serenity Prayer!
When you have a difference of opinion with a friend over an issue that really matters a lot to both of you, do you feel comfortable letting it go without holding it against your friend, or does it build up slowly over time anyway, a sort of cumulative source of frustration with them? Do you simply avoid those topics altogether as they could inspire unwanted conflict? I think I'd tend to choose the latter, even though part of me would like to be able to share everything with my closest friends (probably not the wisest thing).
EJCC said:
1w2 wants to be helpful; they want to provide for people, they want to solve problems. If someone close to them is doing something they find objectionable, it IS their business, because it's their duty as a friend to help their friends when they need help. (See my ENFP example, earlier in the post.) If you were doing your math homework, your dad was a math professor, you were struggling to get it done, and your dad offered to help, would you be confused as to why he thought it was "his business"? It's not about business, it's about this process: They need help, I'm qualified to help them, I care about them, thus it is my duty to step in.
In fairness, I think your friend should let up. But if she's an average level 1, she may not be that great at picking her battles yet.
She's almost certainly within the average levels, and I'm actually a little worried that perhaps she's at a lower point than I previously thought. Theory says that one can swing back and forth across a range of levels depending on mood and stress elevation, but her outburst the other night has me pretty concerned should this persist after a month or so.
Before shit hit the fan with me, we were hanging out one night when another girl (one my friend has deemed her other BFF, actually - probably a type 6, not sure) called her and said that she'd had too much to drink and was stranded downtown: she needed a ride. My ISFJ friend of course dropped everything to assist...but she was
not happy about it, and she made no secret of it to the girl who'd called. Her expression was flat and she spoke in clipped, monosyllabic replies, all "yeah," "sure," "fine," "bye." There was a lot of huffing and if I'd been on the other end of the line, I would have been able to
hear the eyerolls, that, from my actual vantage point, I could plainly see in person. (The girl picked up on it, and as my friend was halfway out the door telling me she'd be back in fifteen minutes, she received a second phone call informing her that nevermind, somebody else was willing to help the stranded girl instead.) This was followed by several minutes of venting about this other friend's drinking problems, irresponsibility, and selfish abuse of relationships.
I'm thinking these were signs that my friend was becoming increasingly stressed, but I'm not sure how to help her relax and feel better anymore (provided things manage to improve at all from where they're at right now). It's especially tricky since our ways of soothing ourselves seem so very different, and it's become clear to me that she very much disapproves of mine.
Normally, she likes helping people even in areas where I feel it's not needed - like my sexuality. If I don't need "help" - and am visibly quite happy and healthy - why would she see a reason to intervene and lecture me on my behavior? Is it enough, just that it's not what
she would choose to do, even if everything is working out alright for me?
EJCC said:
It is ABSOLUTELY a way of expressing love. (See my above quote.) I guess it's a little condescending? -- but I'd prefer the big sister-little sister metaphor. Parent-child assumes that the child is never really supposed to do anything in return. Big sister-little sister assumes that they're still technically peers, and they're still best friends forever. Confidantes. But the big sister has a duty to help and protect the younger one.
It's tough because I'm not sure what the Fe 1w2 attitude would be, here. As a Te 1w2, I'd prefer to have a conversation about it, to talk about it once my emotions had calmed down -- I can guarantee that she's not going to flip out on you a second time to the same extent that she did before, though I understand why you'd be afraid of that possibility. But I don't "get" ISFJs, as much as I "get" my own type.
I feel like parent-child also denotes a sort of helplessness and incapability within the person occupying the "child" role, so for that reason I also think I prefer the big sister-little sister metaphor.
I hope very much that she wouldn't flip out again. Even last Monday night, during those moments when I'd thought she'd finally gotten it all out of her system, I would accidentally say something offensive (even if only in a bid to explain myself) and she'd come undone all over again. We haven't spoken in any form since I left her place. Because I feel that I was mostly unable to share my perspectives with her in that time, the issue remains unresolved to me - but now I fear that I will not be able to have a healthy discussion of my own emotions without stirring up her anger again.
I'll be honest, I'm currently in a state of confusion right now. I mean, everyday I'll experience all kinds of things that fuel my ongoing awareness of just how different I am from 'everybody else' and you know, I've come to terms with it haha. I know it's going to happen. But every once and a while I'll stumble across something like this and I'll be left somewhat stunned wondering if I even heard correctly/understood properly... And from what I've already implied it takes a lot for me to question things of this nature...
So, help me out here... You are single...and spent one drunken evening cuddling with a guy friend that is also single. But your ISFJ e1 female friend that A.) has no romantic history or apparent prospective future with this mutual guy friend And B.) is currently in some kind of committed relationship with another guy... totally loses it and yells at you for 3hrs...and not only does this make sense to you in someway...you've 'beaten yourself up for it'...and anticipate a possible thrashing from others here as well?
^^the way I see it is if most people feel your friend is in the right ...then it's time now for the 'Fi Mothership' or the 'ENFP Stardust' or whatever craft stranded me here to return for me and take me back home.
Before I forget - she's not in a committed relationship with the new guy that she met, at least not to my knowledge. It simply appeared that things were headed that direction in a hurry, as they were texting each other constantly and going on lots of dates.
Here's why I felt terrible for what I did:
Even knowing that my friend was starting to go on regular dates with another dude, and even knowing where that was most likely going to end up, I also knew, on some level, that she had residual feelings for her crush. She would never admit to that and often spoke of him as "just some guy she'd like to hook up with," but I still knew what she was feeling (for one thing, she's not the type of person who can easily sleep with somebody and then disengage). Only during our blow-up did she voluntarily share that she'd deleted all of his texts and Facebook messages (meaning she cared enough to save them in the first place), but I'd already known that - I was able to guess that she'd done things like that. I was very aware of what this situation was to her even if she wouldn't admit it to herself or anyone else.
Consequently, I already knew how she would react to my confession of drunkenly falling asleep and cuddling with an object of her affections. I think what I did, in the big scheme of things, was pretty innocent - but it's not so much what I actually did as the fact that I did it anyway, in spite of the awareness that this was very likely to hurt somebody I care deeply about. That's what makes me selfish, and that's why I feel like my friend had a reason to be upset.
Now, on the other hand, I have my own logical reasoning as to why my actions were perfectly acceptable, including (but not limited to) ideas like these:
1. Everybody in the equation is single.
2. Calling "dibs" on somebody objectifies that person and disqualifies their feelings about whatever
they might like to do.
3. Staying at his place was definitely a safer option than getting behind the wheel.
4. My actions were in no way premeditated; I found myself in a set of circumstances and rolled with them, but still backed off when push came to shove.
5. He didn't reciprocate her feelings/it was looking like a lost cause.
6. I feel that it's a bit unfair that other girls can sort of make the rounds and try out multiple people, yet become angry if one of the men they've expressed interest in looks at
me. That's not my fault.
Anyway, I hope that sort of helps explain why I was beating myself up so much, and why I felt/feel so conflicted!
Starry said:
Like, this is so far from my grasp I can't even imagine what she said to you and if you were willing to share I'd be so interested in hearing it.
There was something she said that bothered me far beyond everything else, and it occurred shortly after the one moment I was able to take control of on Monday. I told her (very dramatically, probably, what with all the crying) that I hate how much she hates herself, that she's so smart, so funny, and so pretty but doesn't give herself a chance, and that I love her like a sister (all true). She very stoically watched this display and said, "Yeah, well, talk is cheap." Broke my heart.
I don't intend for people to be taking sides or anything; the poor girl isn't exactly reading this and around to defend herself, so you're only getting my half of the story even though I'm striving to be as objective as possible.
that's where i'm at with it too...just imagining myself as the isfj in this scenario...i'd be like....ooooh cuddling eh?? do you like him?? aww you guys could be cool together!! etc...i mean...i never dated the guy...am dating someone else...i obviously saw something about the guy at some point so i must think he's good enough for my friend.
I think she might have been able to feel that way if she didn't still have feelings for him. She has often insisted (erroneously, in my opinion) that men will always like me more than they like her, so this must have been like rubbing salt in her wounds.
^ It's not that she was in the right ("she"= the ISFJ). In fact, she reacted completely inappropriately. (Was it actually 3 hours? Were you exaggerating?) It's more a matter of: She had a lot of shit going on, and everything built up to her overreacting to this. If I'm interpreting/summing this up correctly, the point is that sometimes a 1 will lash out about something relatively small and unimportant if they've had stressors accumulate over time.
All I was saying, was that I could see how she would react that way, considering the information provided on the thread thus far.
I showed up at her place around 11:00 and left at 2:30 that morning. There were many, many times that I wanted to get up and run, but I stuck with it, hoping it would all turn around and become some big, cathartic hug-it-out thing (wishful thinking).
So, asking you as a 1 - emotional explosions of this magnitude are par for the course, given that enough preexisting stresses are present? Even if my friend was overreacting, isn't it still quite likely that she meant what she said? Sorry for all the questions, but I very much appreciate the insight.