The Untyped

[Salomé]

Funny how different perspectives seem. I thought your argument was very much of the "Everyone knows conformity is bad, all brave people refuse to conform" mold. It seemed that you were very closed off to any alternative argument. Guess we just spent a lot of time talking past each other.

Or looking in different directions.

 

[Ruthie]

My ISTJ dad is not a conformist. He can seem incredibly non-conformist, but he sticks to his values/philosophy/ideals no matter what. If you are dominant Si I don't think it's about the group as much as your personal worldview, what with it being an introverted function and all.

Interesting about your dad. I definitely relate. What other ways would you describe him? I'm not sure I know any other ISTJs, so it might be helpful for me to have some real world examples for comparison.

 

[Ruthie]

Or looking in different directions.

Uh... ok.

 

[Claide]

No one ever responded to:

On a sidenote, can one be an INTJ and despise Ayn Rand?

This made me laugh (one of my best friends is an INTJ, and her favorite book is The Fountainhead). Against all of my pluralist INFJ sensibilities, the answer is probably "no".

Ruthie, I'm not sure. You are certainly a well-balanced person. Based solely on your communication skills, I would have pegged you for an N. In fact, a lot on your SJ list works for certain NJs. In any case, keep us posted on your findings.

UPDATE: My father is an ISTJ. He's very pragmatic, loyal, and disciplined (although, terrible at communicating his thoughts in writing - something you are quite good at). He's more interested in the application than the ideal (consequently, he makes his arguments with examples, not ideas). Sometimes he can come off as being too cold or logical, but he is affectionate towards people he's close to. In the same way, he's generally quiet in a crowd of strangers, but he can talk your ear off if he knows you. I'd say that dad can deal with concept and theory, but only small doses. The moment it gets too abstract, he loses interest (for him, if it has no practical value, it has no value whatsoever).

 

[simulatedworld]

That's one of the things that's causing the most difficulty in my typing. I THINK like a J, but I ACT like a P. Unless I'm comfortable in a situation - then I think the J part shows up more.

That most probably means you're a P. Remember that Perceiving people are Ps because they show an externally flexible attitude; their rigid Judgment is internal, hence your description that you "think like a J."

Judgers are actually more internally flexible than Perceivers. They are called Judgers simply because they extrovert the Judgment function T/F and introvert the Perceiving one S/N.

Random first guess based on very little information: INFP.

 

[Ruthie]

No one ever responded to: "On a sidenote, can one be an INTJ and despise Ayn Rand?"

This made me laugh (one of my best friends is an INTJ, and her favorite book is The Fountainhead). Against all of my pluralist INFJ sensibilities, the answer is probably "no".

Guess that's one type down then.

Ruthie, I'm not sure. You are certainly a well-balanced person. Based solely on your communication skills, I would have pegged you for an N. In fact, a lot on your SJ list works for certain NJs. In any case, keep us posted on your findings.

Thanks. When I look letter by letter, the N/S split leans in favor of N (not by a huge margin, but consistently). But, when I look at the temperaments, I feel like I MUST be an SJ. It's the only one that even remotely sounds like me. Also, when I look at the functions, I definitely have very high Si. But I don't even know that I fully understand what Ni is or how it works. None of the definitions of Ni click with me.

UPDATE: My father is an ISTJ. He's very pragmatic, loyal, and disciplined (although, terrible at communicating his thoughts in writing - something you are quite good at). He's more interested in the application than the ideal (consequently, he makes his arguments with examples, not ideas). Sometimes he can come off as being too cold or logical, but he is affectionate towards people he's close to. In the same way, he's generally quiet in a crowd of strangers, but he can talk your ear off if he knows you. I'd say that dad can deal with concept and theory, but only small doses. The moment it gets too abstract, he loses interest (for him, if it has no practical value, it has no value whatsoever).

Hmm... something to think about. Some of this sounds like me, but I'm not sure it's a perfect fit. Interesting about his reaction to something with no practical value. Some of the SJ descriptions suggest that SJs are only (or mainly) interested in "real world" concepts. If that's the qualifier, I fit. When "real world" is substituted for something like "applicable to their lives/work," it loses me. I have tons of intellectual interests that have nothing to do with my personal life or work. But they also all deal with reality. I've never been interested in sci-fi, fantasy, or anything involving the "future."

Thanks for the compliment about communicating my thoughts in writing; I always figured that would be in keeping with Si - just, organizing thoughts, you know? I'm actually pretty terrible at any kind of creative writing, but always enjoyed writing position papers that required me to lay out an argument - and those arguments are just as often theory-based as fact-based.

 

[Ruthie]

That most probably means you're a P. Remember that Perceiving people are Ps because they show an externally flexible attitude; their rigid Judgment is internal, hence your description that you "think like a J."

Judgers are actually more internally flexible than Perceivers. They are called Judgers simply because they extrovert the Judgment function T/F and introvert the Perceiving one S/N.

Random first guess based on very little information: INFP.

Just to expand:

1. I have an opinion on most things, and offer it readily. I'm also decisive and like predictability. (Je)
2. I hate planning, am somewhat disorganized, and I'm a procrastinator. (Pe)

That's what I mean by the way I think vs. the way I act. Is that more in keeping with extroverting the perceiving function?

 

[Thalassa]

1. I have an opinion on most things, and offer it readily. I'm also decisive and like predictability. (Je)
2. I hate planning, am somewhat disorganized, and I'm a procrastinator. (Pe)

You sound a lot like me.

 

[brainheart]

What about E/ISFJ?

I definitely get a Fe vs. Fi feel from you- how you went out of your way to PM me, etc. You seem to have more of a group focus/ethic than I have ever had. I don't reach out, I respond.

I would definitely say you are an S. Everything you say fits the definition of a sensor, which basically boils down to being more practical minded than abstract.

Introverted Sensing

What does this necessarily have to do with planning, organizing?

Although, my ISFJ mother in law and my ISTJ dad's lives revolve around planning and organization. It's like what they do to relax. Although my dad's desk can be a mess. But whatever he is organizing, he does this in a very meticulous, orderly fashion- but I would guess that's Si+Te. To my mother-in-law it just seems to come naturally. It's like she doesn't know how to be messy or disorganized. Completely mind-boggling to me. So maybe not Si dom...

You seem like more of a feeler than a thinker to me. I know that's not all that scientific, but you just do.

Maybe you could read this:
Tertiary Temptation
Sometimes I think that's the best way to figure it out.

I'm leaning toward ESFJ.

 

[brainheart]

First of all - thanks for the welcome. Seems like a very friendly board so far.

The arguments:

E/I

-I talk a lot. As obnoxious as it sounds, I probably talk more than I listen.
-I'm comfortable giving group presentations (and often excel at them)
-Sometimes I'll speak before thinking
-I think out loud
-I'm always happy to share my latest idea/thought/opinion

BUT...

-I like a lot of alone time
-I enjoy solitary walks
-I often dodge phone calls from friends
-I have a hard time approaching new people
-I can be very private

N/S

-I think in patterns, metaphors, theories, analogies, etc...
-I usually see the big picture
-I'm completely unobservant
-I'm comfortable with concepts
-I miss details
-I link seemingly unrelated pieces of information
-I have a tough time following rules and procedures

BUT...

-I value loyalty, community, family, tradition, etc...
-I have good hand-eye coordination
-I don't have near-supernatural hunches
-I have a good memory for dates
-I love history

T/F

-I love to debate ideas and theory
-I don't mind conflict - actually enjoy it sometimes
-I have a tough time showing emotion, and can come across as awkward when I try
-I usually lay out a position in point-by-point form
-I'm uncomfortable with casual physical contact
-I'm very analytical

BUT...

-I always side with my friends and family, even if it's irrational
-I'm not cold or emotionless
-I've gravitated toward Feeler jobs
-I go into things knowing which "side" I'm on, as opposed to taking an objective approach

J/P

-I see things in terms of Right and Wrong
-I like structure
-I tend to piece things together in a hierarchical order (Thing A is BETTER than Thing B...)
-I like to have order in my world - and I can have high expectations of the people close to me
-I don't have much of a need for adventure or spontaneity (wow, I sound fun)

BUT...

-I'm not all that ambitious
-I procrastinate a lot
-Most people who have worked for me would describe me as laid back
-My desk is messy (even though my house is clean)
-I'm certainly not a workaholic
-I'm usually pretty friendly with people
-I like to laugh and joke around; I'm certainly not overly serious

I just re-read through this and it sounds like you're describing my mom, who I think is an ESFJ. (I've had a hard time typing her, too, but I'm definitely leaning toward ESFJ for her.)

 

[Ruthie]

I just re-read through this and it sounds like you're describing my mom, who I think is an ESFJ. (I've had a hard time typing her, too, but I'm definitely leaning toward ESFJ for her.)

I think if I could choose my own type, I'd probably choose ESFJ. But I'm very heavily leaning toward introversion. Since I posted the original list, I've started dating an extrovert and it's made me realize just how much alone time I actually require. I'm very talkative in the right environment, but I can be almost hermit-like at times. I love living by myself, and I'm almost never lonely.

ISFJ is still under consideration, but it remains the underdog to the ISTJ guess. I do care about people, and I do want to fit in and be liked, but I'm much more comfortable sharing opinions than I am talking about or expressing feelings. When someone I care about comes to me with a problem, my immediate reaction is to try to help solve it rather than just providing comfort and reassurance. I know I've hurt people doing that. Like I said though, I'm not ready to completely write off this possibility.

That said...

Going twice.

 

[Ruthie]

What about E/ISFJ?

I definitely get a Fe vs. Fi feel from you- how you went out of your way to PM me, etc. You seem to have more of a group focus/ethic than I have ever had. I don't reach out, I respond.

I would definitely say you are an S. Everything you say fits the definition of a sensor, which basically boils down to being more practical minded than abstract.

Introverted Sensing

What does this necessarily have to do with planning, organizing?

Although, my ISFJ mother in law and my ISTJ dad's lives revolve around planning and organization. It's like what they do to relax. Although my dad's desk can be a mess. But whatever he is organizing, he does this in a very meticulous, orderly fashion- but I would guess that's Si+Te. To my mother-in-law it just seems to come naturally. It's like she doesn't know how to be messy or disorganized. Completely mind-boggling to me. So maybe not Si dom...

You seem like more of a feeler than a thinker to me. I know that's not all that scientific, but you just do.

Maybe you could read this:
Tertiary Temptation
Sometimes I think that's the best way to figure it out.

I'm leaning toward ESFJ.

I'm 90% convinced of the "S" as well. And since I think Se is one of my lowest functions (probably along with Ni), that's a pretty strong indicator of SJ.

I read the tertiary temptation thing, and I'm not sure it answered much for me. Truth is, the response for Si seemed the most accurate for me. So, either I'm just one big ball of Si with no judging function attached, or the dominant/tertiary thing just isn't something that resonates as well with me.

 

[simulatedworld]

Just to expand:

1. I have an opinion on most things, and offer it readily. I'm also decisive and like predictability. (Je)
2. I hate planning, am somewhat disorganized, and I'm a procrastinator. (Pe)

That's what I mean by the way I think vs. the way I act. Is that more in keeping with extroverting the perceiving function?

Offering opinions readily on many things is typical of Ji. How is it that you're decisive and also hate planning, though? If you like predictability, wouldn't you tend to plan more often in order to make life more predictable?

 

[OrangeAppled]

My first instinct was ESFJ with strong tertiary Ne, but I don't see a Fe-dom in your description (not the same energy). I'd say ISFJ then.

 

[Ruthie]

Offering opinions readily on many things is typical of Ji. How is it that you're decisive and also hate planning, though? If you like predictability, wouldn't you tend to plan more often in order to make life more predictable?

Predictability = routine, things happening the way I'm used to them happening, peace, comfort, inertia, lack of change.

Planning = effort, adding things to the schedule, details, the "have-to" standing in the way of comfort.

Like I said, there's a big laziness streak in my action. Knowing objectively that planning leads to predictability does nothing to make me enjoy the planning stage more. This is a major overstatement, but I just want today to be like yesterday and I don't even want to think about tomorrow. Obviously, I'm a great deal more practical than that impulse, but in terms of my preference, it's not all that inaccurate. It's also important to mention that I wasn't raised with a very strong work ethic, and in my family, I might even be the most organized and hard-working... but that's not saying much.

 

[VagrantFarce]

N/S

-I think in patterns, metaphors, theories, analogies, etc...
-I usually see the big picture
-I'm completely unobservant
-I'm comfortable with concepts
-I miss details
-I link seemingly unrelated pieces of information
-I have a tough time following rules and procedures

BUT...

-I value loyalty, community, family, tradition, etc...
-I have good hand-eye coordination
-I don't have near-supernatural hunches
-I have a good memory for dates
-I love history

This positively screams Ne/Si, as opposed to Ni/Se.

So!

INTP
ENTP
ISTJ
ESTJ
ISFJ
ESFJ
INFP
ENFP

Let's break it down

Let's confirm a few things:

• Do you find outward structure liberating, or restricting? As in are you happy with following (or making) step-by-step plans or contingency plans etc. and following them through, or would you be happy to make things up as you go and do whatever you feel like doing if given the opportunity (and if no one would shout at you for "wasting time" )?
• Speaking of "wasting time", do you ensure efficiency in whatever you do? Would you prefer that things were run more efficiently than they are?
• You said you think like a J and act like a P. Could you expand on this?

 

[Thalassa]

Predictability = routine, things happening the way I'm used to them happening, peace, comfort, inertia, lack of change.

Planning = effort, adding things to the schedule, details, the "have-to" standing in the way of comfort.

Like I said, there's a big laziness streak in my action. Knowing objectively that planning leads to predictability does nothing to make me enjoy the planning stage more. This is a major overstatement, but I just want today to be like yesterday and I don't even want to think about tomorrow. Obviously, I'm a great deal more practical than that impulse, but in terms of my preference, it's not all that inaccurate. It's also important to mention that I wasn't raised with a very strong work ethic, and in my family, I might even be the most organized and hard-working... but that's not saying much.

I agree that predictability and planning are two totally different things. Predictability is a comfort zone of this is my home, my job, my friends, and nothing out of the ordinary is going to happen unless I want it to (ha ha). I too have a predictability comfort zone, especially after the haphazard quality of my extreme youth.

Planning is something more active and structured, and it takes more energy from me.

 

[Ruthie]

This positively screams Ne/Si, as opposed to Ni/Se.

You're right, it does. Guess that officially excludes INTJ and ISTP.

So!

INTP
ENTP
ISTJ
ESTJ
ISFJ
ESFJ
INFP
ENFP

Let's break it down

Let's confirm a few things:

• Do you find outward structure liberating, or restricting? As in are you happy with following (or making) step-by-step plans or contingency plans etc. and following them through, or would you be happy to make things up as you go and do whatever you feel like doing if given the opportunity (and if no one would shout at you for "wasting time" )?
• Speaking of "wasting time", do you ensure efficiency in whatever you do? Would you prefer that things were run more efficiently than they are?
• You said you think like a J and act like a P. Could you expand on this?

I'll do my best to answer these, but I can't guarantee the answers will be all that clear...

1. I don't enjoy making step-by-step plans, and I sometimes fail to follow-through on projects. But I get stressed and frustrated when something interferes with my normal routine. I have all kinds of quirky little things I do with extreme consistency (I set my alarm clock for the :01, I always position my cell phone in the same exact spot every night, etc...) My mother has even speculated I might have a touch of OCD, but I've never been diagnosed, and it's all really minor stuff that doesn't really impact my life.

2. Again, this depends on the task. On some things, I have no problem wasting time and can be quite leisurely. But when I'm interested in a project, I can develop (and often enjoy developing) very efficient systems.

examples:

I'm kind of fanatical about keeping my kitchen clean, and will sometimes mentally time myself to see how long it will take to load the dishwasher, how many dishes I can make fit, etc... But my bedroom always has a pile of dirty clothes, and when I finally get around to doing the laundry, I often leave the clothes sitting in the dryer for days.

For my old job, I could think of a million ways to waste time (sometimes when I needed a mental break, I would sit in my office with a notebook and just make random lists: best picture winners, US Senators, states, "dollar words," baseball teams, etc... other times, I'd just find a friend and take a coffee break). But then I would feel inspired to get organized and I'd end up designing some kind of elaborate spreadsheet or writing up a fresh presentation or something.

3. I act like a P because I'm not work-obsessed and I love to joke around. I'm pretty casual about things and I can block out and ignore unpleasantness. I don't take care of things I know I need to take care of (I'll pay bills late, forget to call people I know I need to call...). I'm also pretty good at thinking on my feet and improvising solutions. At my old job, I was considered the most adaptable, least by-the-book of the managers. I didn't aim for that; I actually had a lot of respect for the rules. I just had a more flexible approach, where the work product mattered more than the process.

I think like a J because I want everything to be a certain way, and I find comfort in structure. I like to go to the same restaurants, order the same foods, go for the same walk, etc... I even watch the same movies over and over. I'm absolutely the most predictable person on Earth. Also, I'm very decisive - I like choosing something and closing the door on other options. I have an opinion on almost everything, and I share it easily. I have very specific ways that some things have to be done.

I feel like I'm pretty comfortable with using both Si and Ne, but I also think Ne is something I don't take as seriously. It's fun to play in Ne world, but when I'm done playing, Si is what I come home to. But I may be biased because I'm already fairly certain I'm ISJ over INP.

Your take?

***One other fact, and I'm not sure how it fits in here, but I think it's important. I daydream a lot and I always have. I definitely zone out and miss a lot that goes on while I'm stuck in my own little world. I have no idea if that is relevant to figuring out type, but I thought I'd mention it.

 

[simulatedworld]

Predictability = routine, things happening the way I'm used to them happening, peace, comfort, inertia, lack of change.

Planning = effort, adding things to the schedule, details, the "have-to" standing in the way of comfort.

Like I said, there's a big laziness streak in my action. Knowing objectively that planning leads to predictability does nothing to make me enjoy the planning stage more. This is a major overstatement, but I just want today to be like yesterday and I don't even want to think about tomorrow. Obviously, I'm a great deal more practical than that impulse, but in terms of my preference, it's not all that inaccurate. It's also important to mention that I wasn't raised with a very strong work ethic, and in my family, I might even be the most organized and hard-working... but that's not saying much.

Ok yeah, you're starting to sound more ISFJ than anything. "I just want today to be like yesterday" is very Si.

Do you show strong Fe? Do you feel a recurring desire to organize others into situations that will help them? Is a strong sense of community values and social support net important to you?

 

[Tyrant]

I don't approve of the typing methodology people use here. I believe these questions and your answers to them will shed some light on what your type is:

Describe your relationships with other people.

What aspects of your life do you believe are the most important and why? For example, your faith, your interests/hobbies, your friends, etc.

What are your hobbies/interests and why do you enjoy them?