[Fi] Are Fi and selfishness related?

[Udog]

Protean:

If my friend cared about birthdays (btw, nice job of way over exaggerating the Fi opinion of birthdays ), I'd respect it. The thing is, it would be a HUGELY personal gesture for me, tailor fitted for that friend specifically. My Birthday loving Fe friend would miss all that undertone, thinking it's just a sweet expression that I do for everyone. In fact, a friend that notices that it's out of character receives huge bonus points.

I think it's nice when someone remembers my birthday, but I don't expect it. I often have a hard time mustering enthusiasm for it, as well, because I don't know if it's *me* they are celebrating, or the social protocol that says that birthdays are a good time to make an appropriate gesture.

I operate on the 'treat others as you want to be treated' theory, and assume others do the same. If someone calls me for my birthday, I sort of assume they would appreciate the gesture in return, so I make an effort. If I forget, I apologize and tell them the truth - I'm not very good with birthdays, nor do I expect them to remember mine. That usually opens up a conversation where greater understanding is reached. If I notice it really means alot to them, I try *much* harder in the future to remember.

Same with other classic Fe gestures. If I don't 'get it', I show appreciation, then try and understand the deeper meaning behind the gesture. This allows me to either return the gesture verbatim, or find a new and creative way to express the same feeling.

 

[Lightyear]

Perhaps your INFP friend senses you keep score? Do you see how your question has now circled back on itself? Are you the one in that relationship who seems to be demanding and therefore she avoids you?

Food for thought ...

I can see exactly how it could be interpreted that my question has circled back on itself but I AM NOT PRESSURING HER INTO DOING THINGS FOR ME, I HATE IT IF PEOPLE DO THAT TO ME.

I might be annoyed on the inside but I am not telling her: "I am your friend, you should do this, do that for me!" But wait, now I am doing the wrong thing again by not telling her directly how I feel and what I expect from our friendship... can I ever win? Vicious cycle anyone?

For me being able to pressure her at all there would have to exist some basic communication first of all anyway, which is not given since she hasn't written to me for months, has not responded to my one or two attempts to contact her and I am tired of chasing after her. I am even wondering if I should bother telling her that I am annoyed that she didn't contact me at all during my birthday (which in this particular circle of friends is something that we just do, and which she always has done in the past, so please no complaining about: "Fe users are so pushy and traditional wanting others to remember their birthdays!"), can I really be arsed to contact her about something which I saw as a given or just accept her not bothering as a sign that I am obviously very low on her list of priorities and should let the friendship die? Probably.

 

[Lightyear]

Those are my standards of friendship, exactly. I require that you make some effort to meet them if you want to be my friend. If you don't want to be my friend, peace and love just the same and that's fine, too, but life is short and I'd rather not try to reform you; I'd rather move on. Being my friend means that if I am in the hospital you think of me and you ask me what I might want. Like, my mother was in the hospital and I sent flowers and I called her once to ask her if she wanted me to call her every day or twice a day or whether she felt more that she needed to rest, and she said she needed to rest and not to call. You have conversations, you see, and you learn what each other needs and wants.

But it is definitely easier if you can be with people who recognize basic etiquette and that's really, I think, what Lightyear's talking about. Friends remember your birthday, call and/or visit when you're sick, listen to your love life concerns, reciprocate your invitations, yeah, I could go on and on about what I think a friendship should be. I have a need to make things as close to ideal as possible and I surely have a right to seek my own happiness. If you (the general "you") is not able to make me happy, it's best for the both of us that I move on.

I'm saying, it astounded me when I realized that other people do not have the same expectations that I take for granted, and I learned to be a little more flexible. But for me, I know my few friends' favorite colors, flowers, food, how they drink their coffee, Pepsi or Coke and how much ice, what their favorite food is, I make a concerted effort to know everything I can about what makes them happy, and then to the extent I am able, I try to promote their happiness. I pay very close attention to their feeling states. And sometimes I flake out and forget birthdays, it happened just last month, but when I caught it, I called my friend and apologized for forgetting his birthday and sent him a gift.

You might not want to work that hard, and that's fine. But "love me while I ignore you even while you're sick" does not constitute a friend, TO ME. And yeah, I have a purpose on the face of the earth and a right to my needs. Maybe you would find it hard to be friends with me in real life (although I tend to think not, actually, remembering how supportive you can be), but I have a right to want what I want and try to get it. I think we all should. "No expectations" has zero appeal to me. Expectations are negotiable but I'm not going to say I don't have them when I do.

I'm sorry to go on so long but it has to do with communicating, that's all. I had a friend who constantly bought me gifts. In return (I thought), I cooked for him. He would also sometimes ask me to cook for his friends and family, and I would oblige. This was a huge deal to me because I am a very good cook but I freakin' hate it. If I cook for you, I seriously love you, that is a big gift . He thought I enjoyed it. One day he blew up at me because he said he had given me all these gifts and I never reciprocated and I could not have been more stunned. I brought up all the dinners I'd cooked. He was stunned in return.

You have to talk, and to talk, you have to be in touch, and to be in touch, you have to exchange at least phone calls.

I know other people think differently and that's fine, I'm just saying, it's also a valid notion to think that love means doing something, rather than just sitting around thinking to yourself that you love me or you are my friend and in fact doing nothing that promotes my happiness, whether that means dropping by often or whether that means make sure you call before you come; whether that means don't call me on the phone because I hate the phone, or call me at least once a week. But at the very least IMO you have to pay attention.

Exactly. What's the point of a friendship that is so "low maintenance" that it almost doesn't exist anymore? I am honestly not pushy or demanding in relationships (I swear, I rather have the opposite problem of not expressing myself enough) but I am tired of being bashed for expecting some basic things. Even if that means like in Armagith's case that she won't talk to me for months but then be really there for me when it counts, that is fine with me, it's just a different way of expressing things and I would still feel loved and appreciated by her because I see she makes an effort.

 

[Lightyear]

If you feel like you bend over backwards to please people, and constantly put other people's needs above your own, and then you resent them for not doing the same for you---you might want to look up "Co-dependence".

Are You Codependent?

(Sorry for making this a triple post, just working through the thread.)

I don't have problems with co-dependency. Honestly not. A lot of times I am very happy to have my own space and my self-worth does not depend on other people needing me.

 

[simulatedworld]

Any function is related to selfishness when used to the exclusion of others that are supposed to balance it out, regardless of the preferences and abilities of those around the user.

Most likely this will involve (often unconsciously) holding others to an unrealistically high standard of performance in a given area just because it's something you're good at, and so if you don't stop to think about it you may not realize that not everything that's obvious to you is obvious to everyone else, no matter how much you think it should be. So-called "common sense" is quite relative. The OP describes an INFP who expects too much proficiency in Fi from others, simply because she herself finds use of this function so obvious and easy.

This is such a ubiquitous mistake it's almost scary.

 

[Halla74]

In respobnse to the OP, your friend sounds like a selfish beeyatch.

Seriously, you broke your foot, she lived 20 minutes away at most, and she didn't visit once or twice during your recovery period?

She'll socialize on her whim, but once the "inner feelings compass" tells her she needs some "me time" then she tells everyone as such and goes her separate way?

Friendship is a TWO WAY street; your gf seems like a FAIRWEATHER friend, at least one that is only willing to engage in friendships with others on her terms, on her schedule, at ther discretion.

Is she a lawyer, or a salesperson by chance?

Good luck with her, park her in the bad friend parking lot if she causes you more grief than joy.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Let's take birthdays for example. OK, you don't care about birthdays, they're empty and meaningless and you could care less if anybody remembers your birthday.

I LOVE birthdays, but I will play along with you anyway.

If you have a friend who does not share your beliefs about birthdays would put aside your own personal beliefs and do something special with or for your friend, regardless of your personal value about that event is?

Of course! But the opposite then must hold true - if they want you to do nothing, you must honor that too.

Is it enough that your friend values it so therefore you'll value it as well? Or is it a matter of if it has no value to you, very little would move you towards valuing this hypothetical event?

Of course I value that it is meaningful to him/her, so would want to make it a nice day for them as appropriate.

Would you not be touched that even though you've made it clear that you don't do birthdays, someone remembered yours and did something special for you: a gift, a handwritten note, anything?

From my own experience, I have learned that when most people ask me not to make a big deal of their birthday, they REALLY MEAN IT! I have upset people by doing something on their birthday when they explicitly said please don't.

Personally, I would like a little gesture, but THAT'S JUST ME!

Or would you interpret the acknowledgment of the birthday as some form of manipulation on the friends part, chastising you for not valuing theirs?

Well, I have been chastised by other people (for example, having the crew sing Happy Birthday to them in restaurants etc) so my Fe sure was off-base here! See, birthdays are such a big day to me I totally forgot to pay attention to my Fi and check in with what my instincts were telling me about the other person involved.

Because I think people are talking past each other but really saying the same thing. I don't believe Fi users reason this way, but I'm being fairly extreme to make a point.

Umm thanks, and let's clarify: no, we don't reason that way.

I agree that some needs and expectations should be articulated explicity but would you really want someone to hand you a list of Things I Expect From You As A Friend? Some of these things seem, well obvious. But I also realize what seems obvious to me is not always obvious to other people.

Of course no one has a list, but of course what is obvious to you is NOT obvious to others. That's a given really!

So for another example you're becoming good friends with a person and they say explicitly, "You know birthdays are really important to me and I enjoy celebrating mine and my friends. I expect you to do something for me on my birthdays and not forget." The tone isn't harsh or demanding, just a simple statement of expectation. I'm being dead serious, I'd look at that person like a rabbit just jumped out of their left ear. I don't know, that seems so presumptuous to me. It seems to me people are expecting a level of communication that is highly atypical in most interactions.

No one is saying you would say something like this at all! I too would find it shocking to hear that statement from anyone, but their are subtle ways to say what you need to say. Actually, if we all used that level of clarity, it would be refreshing!

---

As you can see under my avvy, I am an INFP. Also, I score high for Fe use in testing, and am very adept in the social application of it, so I generally consider my Fe well developed. I also have a bit of experiential seasoning under my belt thanks to my age. So I am answering from this context.

As I said above, I LOVE birthdays. Love, love, love them! I don't expect a huge fuss on mine, but hey, it is a day to celebrate and I enjoy when people make my day a special one. (Who says Fi users don't love birthdays? Huge stereotype there!)

Anyway, I have always attempted to make them fun for my family and immediate circle, despite a couple of people hinting over the years saying they would rather me not make such a big deal of theirs. Society tells us that birthdays ARE supposed to be a big deal though! So I used to think that they were just being shy, or self-deprecating, or in denial that they deserve attention, and I THOUGHT I would change their minds by doing my special birthday stuff for them anyway. And although I KNOW it was appreciated at the surface level, I know now they truly DON'T want or need the balloons and streamers and big party and tooting horns to mark the event or make their day great. How do I know this? I can sense it.

And ... one person actually had to tell me directly too.

For celebrations now, I work to customize to the individual, as it should be. I use the Fi to make sure I'm on track with the needs of others. And sometimes I do try to be encouraging, because some people really do want the attention but are too afraid or shy to ask for it.

But let it be said, if you are hitting one of the "big ones" - you won't escape 16, 18, 21, 25, 30, 40, 50 etc. without a little extra customized love from me! I can't just let everyone off the hook completely!

My point: I can't emphasize it enough that each circumstance, each relationship you have is unique with parameters of its own.

I don't say one thing while secretly meaning another.

If someone told me they didn't want a gift, I wouldn't get them one. And I'd expect the same courtesy.

See?

If my friend cared about birthdays (btw, nice job of way over exaggerating the Fi opinion of birthdays ), I'd respect it. The thing is, it would be a HUGELY personal gesture for me, tailor fitted for that friend specifically. My Birthday loving Fe friend would miss all that undertone, thinking it's just a sweet expression that I do for everyone. In fact, a friend that notices that it's out of character receives huge bonus points.

Agreed.

I am even wondering if I should bother telling her that I am annoyed that she didn't contact me at all during my birthday (which in this particular circle of friends is something that we just do, and which she always has done in the past, so please no complaining about: "Fe users are so pushy and traditional wanting others to remember their birthdays!"), can I really be arsed to contact her about something which I saw as a given or just accept her not bothering as a sign that I am obviously very low on her list of priorities and should let the friendship die? Probably.

Just tell her you missed hearing from her. No guilt attached. See what happens. If nothing, and she still makes you feel bad, just let her drift off. Drama not necessary.

Any function is related to selfishness when used to the exclusion of others that are supposed to balance it out, regardless of the preferences and abilities of those around the user.

Most likely this will involve (often unconsciously) holding others to an unrealistically high standard of performance in a given area just because it's something you're good at, and so if you don't stop to think about it you may not realize that not everything that's obvious to you is obvious to everyone else, no matter how much you think it should be. So-called "common sense" is quite relative. The OP describes an INFP who expects too much proficiency in Fi from others, simply because she herself finds use of this function so obvious and easy.

This is such a ubiquitous mistake it's almost scary.

A well-articulated post. Thanks simulatedworld.

 

[Tiny Army]

If we're using the birthday example: I have a lot of personal issues surrounding my birthday. My friends know about this and they still do these weird half baked birthday things while I smile a rictus grin and pray for it all to be over quickly. I know they mean well but GAH my birthday is a pretty shit time, I have told them repeatedly about how much I dislike it and they still just somehow don't seem to comprehend how this works for me.

If it's a friend that lives in another country and sends me a birthday e-mail I always respond because it was probably just an excuse to get in touch with me. If someone invites me to their birthday party and I have the time I usually offer to bake the cake. I don't like birthday presents and for the most part don't buy them. Nor do I do Christmas presents (I mean I've never had a christmas in my life and I don't understand why I have to participate in a holiday that is so (a) completely materialistic (b) completely alien to my culture) but if someone gets me a Christmas present I say thank you, explain how I don't usually do Christmas and they REALLY didn't have to and shouldn't next year. If a present appears again next year despite that I cannot help but be slightly annoyed because those kinds of displays just make me really uncomfortable and I try to articulate this to my friends as politely as possible.

I just think that sometimes the Fe users in this situation put a greater emphasis on actually DOING things for the other party than they do on understanding the other party's wants and needs. It sometimes feels like they have a quota; "Complete the following list of activities and then you have all the ingredients for a long lasting and harmonious friendship! Just like a box of cake mix!" and it makes me feel sort of cheap. Using an ENFJ friend as an example, it's almost like they think they can buy my friendship by driving me to work for a month (during which I payed for the gas for the record) or helping me out on a film set (I worked on two of his films later). He decided that we were much closer than we were because he had done all these favours for me and would conveniently forget that I had repaid him and would sulk about it all the time.


I would also like to add that I buy presents for my friends all the time but they tend to be the "I saw this and it made me think of you" kind of gifts. I have very high expectations for my own behaviour in friendships. I go out of my way to help my friends but I do not believe that anyone truly has the right to foist their expectations on other people. Nor should anyone expect help without asking for it first.

 

[Udog]

I just think that sometimes the Fe users in this situation put a greater emphasis on actually DOING things for the other party than they do on understanding the other party's wants and needs.

Fi is internal motivation. Fe is external expression. Fe is blind to Fi unless it gets expressed in an observable manner.

 

[proteanmix]

Fi is internal motivation. Fe is external expression. Fe is blind to Fi unless it gets expressed in an observable manner.

Wouldn't anything be blind to Fi unless it expresses itself? Maybe a perceptive function would pick up on the barest hints of it?

Like I said I think most people are talking past each other in this thread. The basic message I'm getting is the one that holds true in almost any relationship which is communicate. The wires are getting crossed communication part of it. I hate when people make things Fe vs. Fi because that goes absolutely nowhere. One set is saying this is what it means to me, the other is this is what it means to us and the words are like bubbles floating off into the sky. It looks like people are talking they just don't like what they're hearing.

So what do you do when you don't like what you hear? You can end it or make it work. Reading the responses in this thread would lead me to believe that FP/FJ friends are impossible, but I know that's not the case. Evidently there must be some concessions being made or the friendships wouldn't exist. Or maybe the friendships are viewed at one level by one party and another by the other and they think they're on the same page but they're not. Maybe they don't realize how wide and disparate the gulf is and only things like the one Lightyear brought up expose it but if it doesn't happen neither person brings it up. I don't know I'm just saying there has got to be something other than this. It's been said multiple times how much would be cleared up by just asking or telling.

Some people need a prompt before telling and others are more willing to say without a prompt. How do you avoid one person's telling not being construed as demanding and the other's not telling not being construed as uncommunicative or inexpressive?

 

[Udog]

Wouldn't anything be blind to Fi unless it expresses itself?

Good point - and I think so.

If Fi wants to be appreciated, it needs to give the proper meaning behind its actions. Fe becomes much more reasonable if it knows that my taking the time to listen to a problem is an expression of a deep caring.

In the same way, Fi needs to seek deeper meaning behind an action of an Fe user. If I know your birthday is important to you, it pings on my value of what a friendship is, and I no longer view it as a stupid social more, but something that is meaningful to my dear friend.

Or maybe the friendships are viewed at one level by one party and another by the other and they think they're on the same page but they're not.

This is very true! In fact, better understanding of the needs of Fi vs Fe is the singular most important thing I've learned via MBTI. It was a very difficult concept for me to wrap my mind around, but once I did I finally am able to understand why some of my friendships turned out the way they did. I can also understand that someone's need to get me to express how I feel isn't an attempt to threaten my core values.

 

[Dwigie]

OK, this is based on Tiny Army's posts but not necessarily directed at her, do Fi users have little to no expectations of the implicit expectations of the group of people you consider "friends?" Just the general concept of a friend: someone you can talk to, someone you can share yourself with, someone you can rely on, etc. How do Fi users believe those assumptions about the role a friend has in your life play out practically?

Let's take birthdays for example. OK, you don't care about birthdays, they're empty and meaningless and you could care less if anybody remembers your birthday. If you have a friend who does not share your beliefs about birthdays would put aside your own personal beliefs and do something special with or for your friend, regardless of your personal value about that event is? Is it enough that your friend values it so therefore you'll value it as well? Or is it a matter of if it has no value to you, very little would move you towards valuing this hypothetical event?

Would you not be touched that even though you've made it clear that you don't do birthdays, someone remembered yours and did something special for you: a gift, a handwritten note, anything? Or would you interpret the acknowledgment of the birthday as some form of manipulation on the friends part, chastising you for not valuing theirs? Because I think people are talking past each other but really saying the same thing. I don't believe Fi users reason this way, but I'm being fairly extreme to make a point. If the friend is upset that because you have a personal belief that recognition of birthdays isn't a necessary component of friendship, how do you broach that topic with your friend? Do you show your appreciation for your friend in other ways that would make the friend more understanding of your belief? What type of communication is going on on the part of the Fi user in communicating the lack of significance of certain acts to others in order for there to be middle ground.

I agree that some needs and expectations should be articulated explicity but would you really want someone to hand you a list of Things I Expect From You As A Friend? Some of these things seem, well obvious. But I also realize what seems obvious to me is not always obvious to other people.

So for another example you're becoming good friends with a person and they say explicitly, "You know birthdays are really important to me and I enjoy celebrating mine and my friends. I expect you to do something for me on my birthdays and not forget." The tone isn't harsh or demanding, just a simple statement of expectation. I'm being dead serious, I'd look at that person like a rabbit just jumped out of their left ear. I don't know, that seems so presumptuous to me. It seems to me people are expecting a level of communication that is highly atypical in most interactions.

Well, I'm very direct with people about certain things. I never give a present without thorough investigation or asking in advance. I do like to give gifts usually. However, it does annoy me to be asked to. It does seem "presumptuous". I know someone who gave a friend of mine a gift three months after my friend's birthday and a week before her own. No offense but that's blatant manipulation. I actually would have been much more comfortable with her asking me "get me this for my birthday". Needless to say, my friend didn't give her a present.

If I do something for someone it's because I care.

Honestly, it all matters about how much I appreciate the other person. I have an ISFP friend and we go see movies together. Now I hate the comedies she likes but I like to spend time with her so I go along.
Fi is not about being unable to compromise and discredit people's needs. We just hate BS.
But really, I think this has little to do with Fi in the end...

It makes me happy that she's enjoying the movie and frankly I can watch what I want to watch on my own. I don't need her to be with me although I appreciate it more when she is. I don't take it personally if she doesn't come along with me to do what I want. I'll do it anyways.
I'm an Fi user. Being able to do things for other people because it matters to them is not hard for me at all because I enjoy seeing them happy:

My mother watched a perfume obsessively in a store and sighed at how good it smelled wishing she could have it. That was three months before christmas we were just passing by a store.
For christmas I told her to give me some money to buy my friend a present but it was in reality to buy that perfume. Now, I don't really care all that much about presents myself, I'd rather receive money.(If I don't need anything I don't care about presents. Really if there's nothing I want I'm fine with no christmas presents. That's happened in the past)
I think it's cute when people get me presents though. I can appreciate the gesture.

I know my mother loves this and that so I get it for her. However, when she comes and asks me to do things for her or uses some undercover manipulation it ticks me off.
Why? Because I don't like to feel pressured. It has to come from me, I don't like to have other people in my "decision making" process. If I feel like the person is whining about how much they do for me and I don't all I say is:
"I appreciate your work but it's not in my nature to do that. So stop doing things for me now, I don't want to be indebted to you in any way. Then we'll both be happy. That way, you won't have any reason to feel unappreciated and I won't feel pressured."

I gave her that present because it made me happy but that other girl using the lame trick would not have gotten any anytime soon if I were my friend.
I don't except anything from my mother now because I have the satisfaction of just having given and it stops there. I don't except her to give me anything fancy.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

Damn thats one lack of loyality.

 

[BlueScreen]

Okay, let's say we have been good friends since high school shouldn't there be some basic things I can expect from the other person? Like that I don't always have to initiate contact, that it shouldn't take the other person six months to visit me even if they just live twenty minutes walk from me, that they actually reply to text messages? I mean if such basic things like just simply staying in contact are not given can I even call this relationship a friendship or is it just a joke or some empty carcass?

I agree with this. There are things that are common decency to do, especially if you care. There are cases where it is a must, and cases where it isn't. For example some of my closest friends I've known since I was zero. If we don't see each other for a year there aren't going to be hard feelings. If I have known someone for a shorter period and see them often then break it off, it does suggest certain things about the relationship. Also, not replying to text messages is just rude, inconsiderate, whatever other term you want to use. If there is some innocent reason like checking it when busy then forgetting, okay that happens. If you actively don't reply or communicate, what is the other person meant to think? Should they make all the exceptions in the world for you because it is your right to not reply?

I do have a problem with my auxiliary, which sums up the world of personal effect, being called selfish, or uncaring. But I think that many of the actions of this person she has the problem with are. And I don't think it is a type conflict, or conflict of philosophies. I'd say it is just careless behaviour. Though linking a type to behaviours like this, and calling a cognitive function selfish isn't much better imo.

 

[Julie1962]

I'm an ISFP and my ENFJ husband frequently calls me selfish and self absorbed. His mom is an INFJ .. she is the most self sacrificing person I know. I feel that he is constantly comparing me to her. I can't begin to explain how it feels to be compared to someone who is a "Mother Theresa" type. Either you accept her for who she is or move on. Wish he would do the same!

 

[StephMC]

So this might shed some light on how Fi can be used in their negative forms as first and second functions:

For Fi as 1st function (ISFP/INFP):

Since introverted Feeling is often the process that is most trusted, they may engage in it too much and use it in a dominating way. They dig in their heels in support of an absolute ideal. They may also rigidly adhere to certain beliefs and values, perhaps ones that are reactionary against what's judged as wrong with the world around them, such as social injustice, unethical behavior, hypocrisy from people they know, or suffering they witness first-hand. They can insist on complete devotion to the cause and on being pure and seem very critical when others don't live up to their high standards.

For Fi as 2nd function (ESFP/ENFP)

Since introverted Feeling is likely to be a trusted process, they may engage in it in an overprotective and stunting way. Others may view them as selfish. They seem to just do whatever they want. As they grow, they value patiently abiding others and life in general. Under stress they may rigidly evaluate someone or something as either completely good or bad--as if their options are black and white. Or they may rigidly adhere to certain values and beliefs and thus miss out on experiencing something new.