[ENTP] The role of argumentation in ENTPs

[substitute]

Not all praise is patronizing and not all arguing means you're being treated as an intellectual equal.

But we're not talking about all praise or all arguing, we're being quite specific here, talking about ENTP arguing (generally) and I was talking about a certain kind of praise in a certain kind of situation.

Also, the fact that things are often taken by the receiver in ways other than that which the giver intended, is kind of the underlying principle beneath the whole of MBTI. I say I'm trying to communicate with you, you say I'm being pushy and aggressive. You say you're showing genuine appreciation, I say I feel patronized and dismissed. What to do, eh?

edit - the solution, as per MBTI, would seem to be to actually stop distrusting each other and listen to each other, and believe each other about how we actually meant things. But that tends not to happen - see above

 

[digesthisickness]

This thread is about the argumentative nature of ENTPs, and I'm adding my own thoughts on the issue based upon my own experiences with this aspect of the ENTP personality.

no, read the title. it's about the 'why' behind it, why we do it. it has nothing to do with how fantastically you think you slice through someone's arguments.

and, you don't have any experience with any of that.

My aren't we sensitive? Even after I clearly stated that overall I love ENTPs and I'm not saying ENTPs are dumbasses.

is that how you usually 'win' your arguments? because if an ENTP left after that, it's because it got too ridiculous and became a waste of time.

 

[Tiltyred]

But we're not talking about all praise or all arguing, we're being quite specific here, talking about ENTP arguing (generally) and I was talking about a certain kind of praise in a certain kind of situation.

Also, the fact that things are often taken by the receiver in ways other than that which the giver intended, is kind of the underlying principle beneath the whole of MBTI. I say I'm trying to communicate with you, you say I'm being pushy and aggressive. You say you're showing genuine appreciation, I say I feel patronized and dismissed. What to do, eh?

Yes, exactly.

Edit to respond to your edit -- not to split hairs, but I don't think ENTP is sincere about what it is saying in every case; in fact, with all respect, I think the opposite. I think ENTP argues because it needs pushback. The substance of the argument is often lacking, as Peguy points out. But the argument is most often not for the purpose of finding truth, it's for the purpose of making contact. Once the rest of us understand that, it makes it easier to get up and go a few rounds with you.

 

[professor goodstain]

Digest? Are you an F-ster maybe? That is starting to look like an argument between two NFs.

 

[digesthisickness]

Digest? Are you an F-ster maybe? That is starting to look like an argument between two NFs.

uh. no, i'm just killing time while drinking this coffee.

and, bite your tongue.

 

[substitute]

Digest? Are you an F-ster maybe? That is starting to look like an argument between two NFs.

Seriously tho, Peguy's superior and pompous tone does piss me off too, specially considering that I don't think I've ever seen an original thought from him on these forums. Great knowledge of "authorities", encylopedic even. But not a lot of independent thought there, certainly not enough to qualify him to dole out grades on other people's methods and abilities to form opinions and arguments. Like a non-musician judging a musical talent contest. Like fucking Simon Cowell hahahaha

 

[digesthisickness]

heh. that was pretty funny.

 

[professor goodstain]

uh. no, i'm just killing time while drinking this coffee.

But so is peguy.

 

[digesthisickness]

But so is peguy.

*sigh* fine then. i'm an NF all right. whatever you say.

 

[Sniffles]

Can you explain what thin means to you? You also mentioned that arguments shouldn't rest on logic... Can you clarify?

(please note: I am not trying to draw you into an argument - I'm genuinely curious)

No problem. As I stated, this is just from my own perspective, and this is probably related to the different natures of Ne and Ni.

I'll admit it's rather hard for me to fully explain since I'm short on time and energy at the moment, but there is this thread that deals with the issue in some depth:
http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...y-matrices/3574-enfp-entp-superficiality.html

It's my general impression that the style of ENPs is often best suited to punditry. I don't mean that in any negative sense, despite the negative image punditry has assumed in recent years. The McLaughlin Group is a good example of ENTP-natured discourse IMO.

Seriously tho, Peguy's superior and pompous tone does piss me off too, specially considering that I don't think I've ever seen an original thought from him on these forums. Great knowledge of "authorities", encylopedic even. But not a lot of independent thought there, certainly not enough to qualify him to dole out grades on other people's methods and abilities to form opinions and arguments. Like a non-musician judging a musical talent contest. Like fucking Simon Cowell hahahaha

That depends on what one considers "original". Let's also take into effect the major subtle nature of my own thinking processes. Whatever authorities I cite, I cite after long and prolonged internal dialogue with their arguments. Not to mention I often put my own unique twist to their conclusions. And so on. But in any case, this thread isn't supposed to be about me but about you ENTPs.

 

[professor goodstain]

fine then. i'm an NF all right. whatever you say.

Peguy could be an NT?

 

[digesthisickness]

Peguy could be an NT?

sure. why not.

 

[Sniffles]

no, read the title. it's about the 'why' behind it, why we do it. it has nothing to do with how fantastically you think you slice through someone's arguments.

and, you don't have any experience with any of that.

is that how you usually 'win' your arguments? because if an ENTP left after that, it's because it got too ridiculous and became a waste of time.

Wonderful, now do you have an actual point behind all this? Cause if not, I'm done with you.

 

[professor goodstain]

sure. why not.

Don't talk to me like that with that cigarette in your hand and all.

 

[substitute]

Ahem, back on topic tho...

I didn't think I needed to explain that part of it. Sorry haven't slept in days...

I mean to say I feel nothing as far as anger or judgment - no negative feelings. People often accuse chronic debaters of always being negative, or looking for problems. And it's not that way at all. Of course it's thrilling! That's why it feels so intimate afterward, as if we had sex... Getting into the recesses of someone's mind is almost the equivalent of exploring their body in the same way. The push and pull. It's exhilarating.

+2
This, and the other post (sorry, I seem to be saying that to you a lot lol)

I shouldn't have said anything cos if I'd just bothered to look, I'd have seen you said it all already, man.

 

[digesthisickness]

Wonderful, now do you have an actual point behind all this? Cause if not, I'm done with you.

ohhh. i see what's happening now! you don't get points, and therefore don't see when someone else has made one.

...

and this is one example of why we argue, people. we care. we care enough to learn about others right up until we no longer care.

 

[substitute]

Yes, exactly.

Edit to respond to your edit -- not to split hairs, but I don't think ENTP is sincere about what it is saying in every case; in fact, with all respect, I think the opposite. I think ENTP argues because it needs pushback. The substance of the argument is often lacking, as Peguy points out. But the argument is most often not for the purpose of finding truth, it's for the purpose of making contact. Once the rest of us understand that, it makes it easier to get up and go a few rounds with you.

Ah, I'd refer to you to my lego staircase analogy if I could remember which thread I wrote it in all that time ago.

Basic jist is this: suppose we're both standing on the ground, and above us is a floating platform. You tell me that your car has broken down and you haven't the money or expertise to fix it. I know (cos I've seen it) that on that platform there's a mechanic's workshop, where a dude takes people and their cars in and teaches them how to fix it themselves, walking them through the process, and he does it all for just voluntary donations.

I tell you this, but you don't believe me, cos you've never seen or heard of anything like it. But I know it's there and that if you can just take the leap and get up there, you'll see and you'll be alright, your problem will be solved.

So I've got to convince you somehow to get up there, and make a way for you to do it. I'm gonna build a staircase up to that platform for you, but it's got to be a staircase you like and will climb, so I've gotta build it out of bricks that you'll like. It doesn't matter what I think of the staircase or the colours and shapes of the bricks it's built of - what matters is that YOU will climb it and just get to what's at the top.

So, that's an analogy I reckon, for a lot of what you think are the insincere parts of the ENTP's argument. It's the "humour me - just suppose...." part. The part where I'm finding out what bricks I can use to build a staircase to my point, one that you'll climb, so you'll see my point when you get to the top of it. More than one way to skin a cat.

So to say 'insincere' is perhaps not quite it. Cos I'm sincerely engaged in trying to get your mind to a place where mine is, because of something I sincerely believe in, that I sincerely want you to know or understand. Because I can't tell you to take the same path I did, because I did it intuitively

 

[substitute]

Ne perception tends to hungrily absorb MEANINGS, and then once that has been extracted, the facts that revealed the meaning or concept to the ENTP are discarded. This can cause problems later when we're asked why we think this or that - our only answer is often "because I just do, I know it's true". And we know we have solid reason, that it fits in with the fabric of external reality and all that - we just can't easily explain to another person something that's become intuitive to us. So we have to sort of back engineer that "staircase" as we go, if you catch my drift?

It's like supposing somebody gave you a peach when you were a toddler and you took the seed out and long after the peach had rotted away and you'd never seen another one since, and that seed was still on your bedroom windowsill. then someone asked you where to get a seed like that. You only have vague memories and fleeting images of the peach, you can't just tell them that it's found inside a peach and describe clearly how to recognize one. What you have to do is find out if they already in fact know - perhaps they've only seen the outside of one and not the inside, and if you question them and get them to fire ideas at you, you can say yes or no, it's that or it isn't that, and gradually that way rediscover for yourself what a peach is, and then both of you go away enlightened.

That's pretty much what being Ne dom is like half the time... and you never get to actually communicate the info over to some people, cos they decide that you're talking crap or being insincere before you've even been able to get your brain out of first gear.

 

[Tiltyred]

So to say 'insincere' is perhaps not quite it. Cos I'm sincerely engaged in trying to get your mind to a place where mine is, because of something I sincerely believe in, that I sincerely want you to know or understand. Because I can't tell you to take the same path I did, because I did it intuitively

Y'know, I just realized what forum this thread is on and I suddenly feel like I'm trespassing, but to the extent you might want to talk about it, my thing with that is this: I watch the people around me and listen to them all the time. I am never unaware of people, which is why it wears me out to be around them. After awhile, without anyone saying anything, I know who's full of it and who knows where the staircase is. If I have determined for myself that you are not full of it, all you have to do is point to the staircase and I will climb right up it. If I have determined to myself that you are talking to hear your head rattle, trying to impress me, trying to win an argument for the sake of winning, I won't go up any staircase you may illustrate, no matter how logical, perfect, and convincing your argument is.

So the arguing part is superfluous to me because the extent to which I'm willing to act on someone else's thoughts depends completely on whether I respect them as a person, and that is not something you can prove to me by arguing.

Responding to your 2nd post --

That's pretty much what being Ne dom is like half the time... and you never get to actually communicate the info over to some people, cos they decide that you're talking crap or being insincere before you've even been able to get your brain out of first gear.

That's very important to know, thanks for that. So in other words, you need to work it out aloud and with response.

 

[CJ99]

hahaha! Great thread!!!!!!!!!!

Why do ENTPs argue?

Its the Ne Ti mix as far as i can see. Ne thinks up of an idea Ti says it can work so Ne goes mental and wants too share the idea and Ti wants to double check it just incase. Best way to do this is to argue about it with someone!

For an ENTP to argue with you whether you realise it or not is the greatest honour they can give you. We are giving you our crowns of diamonds! Were giving you our ideas! The things that define ENTPs as ENTPs!!!!!!! Were giving you our most prized posessions to rip and tear and poke and prod at! To utterly destroy if you are capable of it! And in return we will do the same to your own so that when its over we can take he remains and put them together into an even more magnificant idea!

Our minds are the most precious things to us and were letting you test them. Were letting you have a go at our defenses so as to improve them. But in doing so we leave them open to attack which is the biggest show of trust an ENTP can give!

As substitue has already said to have someone listen to you and respond in an arguement is a joy. It shows that they actually care about your mind and want to help you develop it. That they actually care about your thoughts and ideas.

I can honestly say that the people i love most are thoughs that argue with me.

Its not about being right. For an ENTP to win an arguement they must have learned something for that is the entire purpose of it.