[NT] NTJs and treating people like pawns

[Virtual ghost]

For sometime I am thinking about opening this thread and then one reply sparked my attention.

From my limited observation you strike me as someone who might excel at large scale logistics. I'm talking something like running a large company with military precision. Does that sound like something you could see yourself doing?

So I am creating a thread about NTJ skills that people usually dislike or don't understand and things that shouldn't be shown to others simply because people could have problems with this way of thinking.

There is a lot of jokes and joking that we are trying to take over the world.
But I am interested in how much that stereotype is actually true.
Others types can comment.


To answer the question above. Yes I can see myself in that kinds of a positions. If I am good at something I am good at large scale menagment .


I am playing strategy video games of many kinds from since I am 7. I started to experiment with chess even before that.


But I never stoped playing this kinds of games and I am still playing them. People can say what they want but this kinds of things are in my blood.
At the age of 12 I was already capable to beat my father anyway I wanted and it was completly normal that everbody else are playing united against me. What surely left psychological consequences since I am used that I have coalition against me and the only one I can trully trust is me.


I know that I am talking about video games here but the psychology is still there. Once I played one RTS 4vs4 and others let me to do the big picture thinking. But one of my allies fall into trouble so the other two wanted to help him(and he trully needed all help he can get). But I said no to that idea because it was pure madness from strategic perspective.
In the end we won but there was some hard feelings because of "betrayal". But we managed to work things out.
Also this was't the only case when things like this that happened.
If someone wants this in more detail I can explain what I did in that game.
We are talking about Starcraft here.


Probably the main reason why I managed to progress and live quite introverted life at the same time is because of something I call
"The spokesman strategy"
I have found that I don't have too much communication problems with ENTPs and ESTPs it I don't want to have them.
ENTPs like knowledge so they like me plus they know people. ESTPs like to have someone like me in their circle plus they know a lot of people.
So when I notice that that we have common goals I ask them if they can ask other people for more information. Because of this I don't need to have too many conntacts, just a few people who understand me.
So I can get many things I need without becoming close with that many people. However this does not mean that I don't have respect for people that make my life so much easier.


However I admit that in many cases when I look at people I don't look only in light what I think about the person. But in a light for what this person is actually capable.


Also I have conflicts with my familily because they are too relaxed, spontaneous and playful. (we don't hate eachother).
But there are situations when I am the parent and I have large problems in life because they are disorganised people.
I am at my best when I kill as much spontaneity as possible. To me there are only two options, planning and planning not to plan. Since sometimes it is better just to play a long and adapt.
Being totally spontaneous is not my call.



I have noticed that people know that they can't stand against me in some conversations from the perspective of logic so they they use
"Because I feel like it!" as answer and I can tell that they enjoy doing it.
Many people think that I am too serious so they are trying to turn things into a joke since they think I should laugh more.
Does this sounds familiar? Probably some other types will be able to relate.



It happens that people watch movies and it is not unusual that a bad guy is evil masternind. But people remember what they have watched and they project it on me. In real life there are people that think that I some kind of future megalomaniac in the process of creation.
Does this happens to other NTJs as well?

One the other hand this makes my job to "sell" myself in social situations much easier.

I say megalomanic because I pay attention to geopolitical events and other global issues. What is somewhat unusual in my culture.
Also I can name all countries of the world with the exception of some tiny island states. But I also know their sizes, positions and many other characteristics.
So I like to make my own models of future.


I could say more but this is getting to long.



One more thing. How would you rate this video?
I am not interested in particular nations or ideology here, but in something that could be called artistic impression.
The main reason why I am posting this, is because I am curious about how many will recognize the song.



[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zpGsVpIJLM"]Video[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Kangirl]

I am at my best when I kill as much spontaneity as possible. To me there are only two options, planning and planning not to plan.

Ha! This is SO me. Not only am I not spontaneous at all, spontaneity actually disturbs me. I must. plan. everything. One of my sisters is the type of person to wake up some random weekend morning and decide to go skydiving, for the first time (literally, she's done this), and she amazes me. I would have a serious anxiety disorder if someone forced me to live her life. Planning things relaxes me. My boyfriend and friends can often found telling me to stop Fieldmarshalling every little activity.

Edit: Couldn't watch the video right now, my dog is asleep at my feet and I don't want to wake her (she's had a hard day chasing squirrels and sniffing asses).

 

[runvardh]

I like plans in that it gives me a structure to work with, but I enforce certain limits. Basically, the closer to the time you want to do something it is, the less likely it is going to happen. Give me two weeks with a confirmation two days before and there is no problem. Ask me the hour you want to do something and the answer has a 90% likelihood of being "No". I may not be doing anything anyone sees as constructive and I could still say "No", unless I am bored (and think the action proposed will be at least marginally fun).

 

[Venom]

RED ALERT! i still play that game sometimes....
my favorite of all time is still the fully expanded (ie the conquerors) Age of Empires II. the newer ones aren't nearly as fun...

on the rest of ur post, ill have to comment later when i have time...

 

[Costrin]

I can relate to everything but the planning thing. I routinely play strategic games, and in fact am currently involved in a game of Diplomacy, where it's all about strategy, alliances, manipulation and backstabbing.

However, I don't plan, at least not in the traditional sense. I am constantly thinking of what I want to do, and how to do it, but there is no step by step process or anything close to one that I have. Part of this is general laziness, and not wanting to be tied down, but it's also that I work better that way. I think and think and think to understand kind of the fundamental nature of the problem, and when it comes to decision time, I pick the choice that seems best, and if something unexpected comes up, I can deal with it, as I understand how it works.

If you've ever read Erfworld comics (and I really recommend it if you haven't), then I operate similarly to Parson, and not at all like Ansom (even ignoring how Parson is a much better commander than Ansom).

As for taking over the world, meh. Can't be bothered. Nonetheless, I don't think my friends would be surprised if I managed to do it. As for running the world, that definitely is way too much work. Just give me a room with a computer, internet access, endless supply of nutrition, and a skilled opponent whenever I desire.

 

[GargoylesLegacy]

Ooh, planing things! Yes I do! I always want to have a plan in my pockets in case something goes wrong. Also I like to plan my future somewhat. Not with every single detail, because this is nearly impossible, but somewhat. Let's say around 70 - 80%.

As for taking over the world: Why would I want to lead a world with so many f'd up people? I guess I will wait until they are somewhat more useful.

 

[Costrin]

As for taking over the world: Why would I want to lead a world with so many f'd up people? I guess I will wait until they are somewhat more useful.

Theoretically, if you took over the world, you could forcefully reeducate them to your desire. Or just leave em that way, with the majority of the world useless, it's easier to stay in power.

 

[garbage]

I'm born to mobilize other people. Sometimes, I feel that empathy, small talk, personal interest, and connection on an emotional level is but a tool to help me accomplish that goal. It works.

Also, like others here, I feel that I have to plan everything. Lately, I've been more willing to alter plans as needed, but then I'm just as determined on the new path as I was on the old one

 

[Costrin]

I wonder what the difference in mindset is that leads you guys to plan so much. My hypothesis is that you take a stance that "life is what you make of it", so you make plans to get in the position you want. My stance is closer to something like: the "meaning of life" is already there, it already exists, you just gotta discover it.

I see life as a series of branching paths already laid out, you just got to pick the most interesting one and enjoy the scenery on the way, the destination hardly matter, just be wary of any pit traps along the way. While NTJs see a thick jungle and trail blaze their own path to get to the temple and the hidden riches within.

Comments?

 

[Maabus1999]

I don't mind spontaneity but for myself or if I'm in charge, I will strategize/plan. I will also use communication and the "correct" reasoning for each personality type to get my point across to a point it may seem like manipulation (some great books out there on communicating with other personality types).

 

[GargoylesLegacy]

Theoretically, if you took over the world, you could forcefully reeducate them to your desire. Or just leave em that way, with the majority of the world useless, it's easier to stay in power.

No I couldn't. Because they are too - how can I say this nice - unconcentrated to understand what I would want from them. C'mon, we are talking about "us" NTJs here taking over the world.

 

[garbage]

No I couldn't. Because they are too - how can I say this nice - unconcentrated to understand what I would want from them. C'mon, we are talking about "us" NTJs here taking over the world.

You're smart enough to learn how to communicate with them on their wavelength. Then make them understand

Comments?

Not sure what to say except that this is totally accurate for me..

 

[GargoylesLegacy]

You're smart enough to learn how to communicate with them on their wavelength. Then make them understand

Yeah, actually I do know already how to talk to them. I mean they do have their brain shut off anyways already, so to "program" them new is gonna be a piece of cake.

Ah Gee. Sorry, my NTJ-ness is showing through a lot on this thread.

 

[nozflubber]

If someone wants this in more detail I can explain what I did in that game.
We are talking about Starcraft here.

Fuck yeah, I knew it! I know exactly the kind of situation you're in... where you know you will sustain heavy losses if you try to save that person's base. IME, if that person got a drone/probe out, it's wiser to just have them rebuild if they were hit with a heavy rush.

How did you end up winning that one?

We should compose a group of starcraft players from this board.... but I'll be damned if we have any XNFPs on our team =) IMO, NTs and SJs usually make the best teamates.

 

[squibbles]

Eh....I can be a good strategist without treating people like objects, thanks.

Making good, efficient decisions and treating folks like people aren't mutually exclusive...

 

[Kalach]

For a while I used to organise a spontaneous social event.

Spontaneous in that it was outside in public and was meant to attract passersby.

Kind of like a weekly gathering with a view to meeting new people.

Now, just by being Caucasian in small town China I can draw a crowd, but just by being INTJ I can probably hold that crowd for all of 20 seconds, so to make this event actually work, to have it be a sustained and entertaining thing, I used to rely heavily on the services of several much more sociable people, and on one ENFP in particular. (There was a particular ESTJ too--she was always good value for taking control of people opportunities and taking the burden off me.)

As an obviously white guy in public I was the beacon. And as people gathered and chatted they'd sustain themselves in interest, but if new people turned up and looked interested but a bit isolated, I'd tag the ENFP (or someone similar) and literally say something like, hey, look, new people, and away they'd go.

And if people started talking to me, I'd quite literally guide conversation onto nearby people and then step back.

And with all the hubbub going on around me I'd step back and bask in pleasant humanity and keep an eye out for social opportunities, either for myself or that needed an E touch by someone else to fix. The whole thing was always very, very tiring but really engaging too. After two hours I'd literally have to go home because my sense of self had detached so far from what I was doing it would always be like I wasn't there anymore, but I also never wanted to leave too.

So...people as pawns. That event would never have happened without other people involved. This I always knew. This I consciously addressed by drawing on other people's resources.

I think I was benevolent.

(Hell, I can't not be benevolent. Being too utilitarian with people takes as much energy as being pleasantly sociable.)

 

[FDG]

Mbah, only plan for other people when asked. I'm pretty good with train and bus schedules...otherwise I prefer to be free to do my own thing.

I don't know man, every new thread of yours seem blabbers on how awesome you are.

 

[01011010]

I don't mind spontaneity but for myself or if I'm in charge, I will strategize/plan. I will also use communication and the "correct" reasoning for each personality type to get my point across to a point it may seem like manipulation (some great books out there on communicating with other personality types).

Same here.

I've read books on how to appeal and persuade different personality types. Also books on body language. I understand how to subtly one up someone, and how to read the unconscious signals. Life is strategy. One can only employ it to it's maximum efficiency, if the factors on every level are understood. Using knowledge, one can easily manipulate others as pawns.

Do I? Not usually. I prefer to keep to myself without the extra trouble of micro-managing others to do my bidding. I trust myself to do things more properly than others. Now, if someone gets in my way...

 

[Darjur]

There is a lot of jokes and joking that we are trying to take over the world.
But I am interested in how much that stereotype is actually true.
Others types can comment.

Guilty,
People joke at me being the evil mastermind.

I am playing strategy video games of many kinds from since I am 7. I started to experiment with chess even before that.

Guilty.

But I never stoped playing this kinds of games and I am still playing them. People can say what they want but this kinds of things are in my blood.
At the age of 12 I was already capable to beat my father anyway I wanted and it was completly normal that everbody else are playing united against me. What surely left psychological consequences since I am used that I have coalition against me and the only one I can trully trust is me.

Somewhat guilty, but something along those lines do happen to me often.

I know that I am talking about video games here but the psychology is still there. Once I played one RTS 4vs4 and others let me to do the big picture thinking. But one of my allies fall into trouble so the other two wanted to help him(and he trully needed all help he can get). But I said no to that idea because it was pure madness from strategic perspective.
In the end we won but there was some hard feelings because of "betrayal". But we managed to work things out.
Also this was't the only case when things like this that happened.
If someone wants this in more detail I can explain what I did in that game.
We are talking about Starcraft here.

If I see that helping someone might put my plan into chaos, I will not do so.

Probably the main reason why I managed to progress and live quite introverted life at the same time is because of something I call
"The spokesman strategy"
I have found that I don't have too much communication problems with ENTPs and ESTPs it I don't want to have them.
ENTPs like knowledge so they like me plus they know people. ESTPs like to have someone like me in their circle plus they know a lot of people.
So when I notice that that we have common goals I ask them if they can ask other people for more information. Because of this I don't need to have too many conntacts, just a few people who understand me.
So I can get many things I need without becoming close with that many people. However this does not mean that I don't have respect for people that make my life so much easier.

Somewhat guilty.

However I admit that in many cases when I look at people I don't look only in light what I think about the person. But in a light for what this person is actually capable.

Definatly guilty.

Also I have conflicts with my familily because they are too relaxed, spontaneous and playful. (we don't hate each other).
But there are situations when I am the parent and I have large problems in life because they are disorganized people.
I am at my best when I kill as much spontaneity as possible. To me there are only two options, planning and planning not to plan. Since sometimes it is better just to play a long and adapt.
Being totally spontaneous is not my call.

I live in Loose plans. I don't plan in absolutes, because I think that they are inefficient to handle real world situations because of the unknown factors.
My plans are usually modular and interchangeable so that I could quickly manipulate the whole project at any moment to take account for unforseen data. But yes, true spontaneity is fairly foreign to me I guess.
So I guess I'm somewhat guilty.

I have noticed that people know that they can't stand against me in some conversations from the perspective of logic so they they use
"Because I feel like it!" as answer and I can tell that they enjoy doing it.
Many people think that I am too serious so they are trying to turn things into a joke since they think I should laugh more.
Does this sounds familiar? Probably some other types will be able to relate.

Guilty, I have this sort of director feel around me.

It happens that people watch movies and it is not unusual that a bad guy is evil masternind. But people remember what they have watched and they project it on me. In real life there are people that think that I some kind of future megalomaniac in the process of creation.
Does this happens to other NTJs as well?

Even thought I'm an INTP, I get this a lot. Anyway, I'm quite thankfull to that "stereotype", it makes interactions easier.

I say megalomanic because I pay attention to geopolitical events and other global issues. What is somewhat unusual in my culture.
Also I can name all countries of the world with the exception of some tiny island states. But I also know their sizes, positions and many other characteristics.
So I like to make my own models of future.

Guilty.

One more thing. How would you rate this video?
I am not interested in particular nations or ideology here, but in something that could be called artistic impression.
The main reason why I am posting this, is because I am curious about how many will recognize the song.

7/10, could have been done better, but it captures my impression of the song.

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zpGsVpIJLM"]Video[/YOUTUBE]
Red Alert.

INTP's view people like pawns as well.

 

[JocktheMotie]

INTP's view people like pawns as well.

Eh, not like pawns that need to be controlled for my cause, but simply unintelligent obstacles that need to be removed because they're getting in the way of something I'm doing/want to do.