Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament

[entropie]

I wont read it, I neglect this knowledge for my own security.

If I'ld read it, I probably will start psychoanalyzing my dad and that will get me in great istp trouble

 

[ygolo]

It's interesting that Jeffster finds Keirsey's theory applicable to himself at least.

You know, if you guys are up to it, and if we ever start-up a debate section, I think it would be very illuminating to have an SP who finds Keirsey's descriptions applicable (like Jeffster?) and an SP who doesn't (like Sarah?) discuss the (de)merits of Temperament theory--especially since Jeffster and Sarah self-indentify as the same archetype (ISFP).

 

[sarah]

It's interesting that Jeffster finds Keirsey's theory applicable to himself at least.

You know, if you guys are up to it, and if we ever start-up a debate section, I think it would be very illuminating to have an SP who finds Keirsey's descriptions applicable (like Jeffster?) and an SP who doesn't (like Sarah?) discuss the (de)merits of Temperament theory--especially since Jeffster and Sarah self-indentify as the same archetype (ISFP).

I would find debating the merits of Keirsey with Jeffster interesting too, and would happily do that if Jeffster were interested. I feel like we're both "typical" ISFPs but in completely different ways. Jeffster's personality seems to embody the friendly, entertaining, playful side of the SP temperament, whereas I guess I embody the gracefulness-in-action, aesthetic "fine artist" side. (those are huge generalizations, of course --- Jeffster is no doubt gracful in some aspects of his life and I've got a pretty good sense of humor, and can on occasion make people laugh.)

I really have no problem with Keirseyan Temperament Theory, but the descriptions do put me off, mainly examples of behavior in the SP chapter. They're extremely limited, and sometimes downright not true at all.

Sarah
ISFP

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

You didn't actually read the first post did you? The part where an admin told me I could put it in the MBTI section?

No, I didn't.

 

[entropie]

I really have no problem with Keirseyan Temperament Theory, but the descriptions do put me off, mainly examples of behavior in the SP chapter. They're extremely limited, and sometimes downright not true at all.

I always have to imagine this estp hunter, with big horny glasses studying type philosophy .

I think you are very right, the few descriptions I read especially about the SP temperament range from bad to worse. They are true for certain member of the species, but they do not grasp the whole picture.

There are only two possible answers to that dilema, the first: type theory is bullshit or the second: noone of the SP really cross-referenced it yet that means their descriptions just lack first hand input + information.

I am more a fan of the function theory and their distribution within a personality shown through ones preferences. If you look at MBTI from an objective scale, it is really no measurement of your true self. If you have done like 30.000 MBTI test's and you tried to answer them coherently, what means you were sure about your answers, there will be a pattern emerging and your MBTI type then is nothing more than the image of this pattern.

If you think about it that way, whole personality descriptions that say for example "ISFP is THE artist" will loose its charme. It would be more right for them to say, ISFP have an inclination towards art, because of their function distribution, but to say what they are exactly or to speak of subjective existing facts, I find sometimes disturbing aswell.

 

[sarah]

I always have to imagine this estp hunter, with big horny glasses studying type philosophy .

I think you are very right, the few descriptions I read especially about the SP temperament range from bad to worse. They are true for certain member of the species, but they do not grasp the whole picture.

There are only two possible answers to that dilema, the first: type theory is bullshit or the second: noone of the SP really cross-referenced it yet that means their descriptions just lack first hand input + information.

I figure Keirsey was just trying to be colorful and obvious for the sake of making comparisons, but the downside is that people who are using Keirsey's descriptions as a benchmark to tell them what the Artisan temperament looks like won't be able to notice the Artisan temperament in many actual SPs.

I am more a fan of the function theory and their distribution within a personality shown through ones preferences. If you look at MBTI from an objective scale, it is really no measurement of your true self. If you have done like 30.000 MBTI test's and you tried to answer them coherently, what means you were sure about your answers, there will be a pattern emerging and your MBTI type then is nothing more than the image of this pattern.

If you think about it that way, whole personality descriptions that say for example "ISFP is THE artist" will loose its charme. It would be more right for them to say, ISFP have an inclination towards art, because of their function distribution, but to say what they are exactly or to speak of subjective existing facts, I find sometimes disturbing aswell.

Yes, I agree. Your lifelong interests often have a lot more to do with what you've been exposed to and been given encouragement to develop than anything else. And predicting the potential interests of any one type or temperament also confuses things. For a long time I thought I couldn't be an SP because I wasn't "athletic", and it took a long time for me to figure out that what Isabel Myers and Keirsey meant by "athletic" didn't mean necessarily playing ball games. They just meant that SPs, being centered in the concrete and in the here-and-now, tend to be very aware of their physicality -- which is actually very true for me.

Sarah
ISFP

 

[Jeffster]

Hahaha! Yo'ure right, what'm I thinking? You were naturally referring to the healthy variety of "cheeseburgers" -- as in, organic veggieburgers with melted lowfat organic Gruyère de Comté cheese on top. And sandwiched in a whole grain wheat bun.

Ugh. The wheat bun's not too bad but the rest of that sounds awful. You can make a pretty healthy cheeseburger just by using extra lean beef and not cooking it in heavy oils. (actually I have no idea what that french cheese you said is, it might be good.)

I always have to imagine this estp hunter, with big horny glasses studying type philosophy .

I think you are very right, the few descriptions I read especially about the SP temperament range from bad to worse. They are true for certain member of the species, but they do not grasp the whole picture.

Hey entropie..I appreciate your insight, but once again, debating the validity of Keirsey's theories is not the purpose of this thread. Thanks.

 

[Jeffster]

Well, I was gonna wait until I had some more examples for this section, but I'm too impatient, so I'm just gonna post it now, and if I think of more to add later to this part, I'll just add it on as "additional notes" or something. I mean, it's not like I'm getting a grade on this, right? Right?

So...moving on...

Utilitarian Tool Usage

Okay, here's your musical accompaniment for today's lesson...

Click here and let the song play in the background as you read.

First, I better go back to the previous chapter briefly to quote how Keirsey defines the word "tool." When I see the word, I tend to think of it literally (as we've established already, that's my default mode pretty much), so I think of a wrench or a screwdriver or a power saw. All these things ARE tools of course, but we're talking about a much broader definition here...

"Nearly everything we do to implement our goals requires several kinds of tools used both simultaneously and successively. No matter where we look we see tools in every direction, inside or outside our homes and throughout our communities. The house itself is an enormously complex tool. Everything in it is a tool - chairs, tables, books, computer, television, phone, radio, pictures, lamps, rugs, boxes, on an on and on. Our vehicles are tools as are our roads and bridges and walkways and even our clothes. Civilization itself is created and maintained by tools."

So, by this definition, tools aren't just stuff found at the hardware store, but all kinds of things, including naturally occurring things such as our voices or parts of our bodies. Once that's understood, you can understand why most of the examples I'll point to in this section don't really have that much to do with using wrenches and hammers, they are more about the methods used, and a general need to rebel against authority and traditions that don't seem to have a purpose.

In the Artisan chapter, Keirsey goes on to say...

"In implementing their goals, or as they say 'going for it', Artisans are primarily interested in what works, what fits, and only secondarily in what meets with social approval. The root of the word 'art' means 'to fit together' and SP artists even call their productions "works of art," all of which suggests that a thing must be useful to interest an Artisan, immediately useful, concretely useful, otherwise who needs it? If some action doesn't fit your intention and advance you toward your goal, then why do it? NTs share this utilitarian, whatever-works mindset with SPs, but functional utility in the concrete differs from functional utility in the abstract. SPs do not map out the relationship between means and ends as do NTs. Artisans simply and without hesitation give the chosen operation a try, put it to the test, give it a whirl or a shakedown cruise. If it works it is used, if it doesn't it is set aside without a second thought."

Eh, it kinda depends on what kind of "traditional order" you're talking about. I mean, we're not too likely to follow a tradition because The Man tells us it's right, but we're quite likely to follow traditions that have been passed down to us but we've experienced enough to see the effectiveness of. I'm likely to follow a "tried and true" method of doing something if I believe that it works, and not feel a strong compulsion to change it.

What is the purpose of understanding the concept? Is it not to then apply that concept in some way? By doing something with it?


I don't know, when you talk in vague terms, there's little that I know to tell you. But, to use an example of a theory/concept that I have come to understand, take MBTI, the reason I'm here. I did not learn MBTI as a concept/theory, I learned about it by reading the type descriptions that talked about people's actual behavior in life and then the stuff about recognizing the patterns of behavior to identify types. If I had started reading all that cognitive function formula stuff first, I would have never got into it, because on the surface, that's just a bunch of gibberish to me. I still zone out on discussions on this forum that get too heavily into endless theoretical hypothesis, instead of talking about how these things actually play out in the real world. So, it sounds like an example of what you call "working backwards" even though it seems completely forwards to me.

...I had and still have the desire to refuse to cooperate with others' agendas. Now sometimes I cooperate anyway, but that urge to rebel is always there, and it definitely doesn't come from being spoiled, because I wasn't. I don't think it comes from resentment of my upbringing either, I just think it's my natural tendency. I don't want to be told what to do. Ever. But I accept that sometimes I'm going to be, and when it's my boss for instance, I need to accept reality and do what I've been told. But I always try to change it up a little, make some part of it my own idea. Which at my job isn't too hard, I can change up the order I do things and still get them done.

One time when I was probably 7 or 8, we were at my ESTJ grandmother's house, and she brought me a bowl of ice cream after my meal. I didn't immediately say "thank you" so she took the bowl away. I said "No! Bring it back!" She did and set it down again and waited for a second. I still didn't say "thank you" so she took it away again.

I knew what she wanted me to say, and that's precisely why I couldn't do it. It was more important for me to maintain my own personal freedom by fighting her on that than it was to get the yummy tasty ice cream that awaited me if I only said two measly words.

I never had any explanation for that confrontation before I started reading the personality type stuff. Now I see it as a pretty classic SJ authority vs. SP child battle. Neither of us were gonna give an inch because we both thought our way was best. I regretted not having the ice cream, but I still wouldn't admit defeat, because she didn't get me to bow to her rules. When I tell people of other temperaments that story, they don't understand why I would deny my own pleasure just to resist being directed. It doesn't make any sense to them, but my fellow SPs know exactly what I'm talking about.

My rebellious nature would lead to all kinds of other fun experiences as I got older, but one simple one I had was rooting against any of the local favorite sports teams. College Station is home to Texas A&M University, the aggies, and so of course, that was the first thing on my hate list, as I gleefully wished the aggies to lose at everything so I could gloat about how they were dumb and deserved it.

When we moved to College Station, we got a free board game from the chamber of commerce that was a map of the city and the game pieces were various sponsor businesses that moved around the board and discovered things about the history of the city, I think..something like that anyway, it was a long time ago, I was 6.

Anyway, the piece I selected was the one sponsored by the company that owned two of the radio stations in town, KORA-FM and KTAM-AM. Now I learned quickly from my school peers that KTAM was the preferred station among the youth (it was a top 40/pop/rock station, yes they still had them on AM in those days.) So I chose to listen to the other one because I'm a rebel and a non-conformist and I always chose the one that was in the minority on almost everything.

KORA played country music, and I found myself listening for long periods of time, even though I really didn't like a whole lot of the songs. To me, it was more than just the actual songs played, the whole broadcast was an entire package. The DJs, the commercial, the news reports, it was like this perfect amalgamation of parts that formed the essence of the experience. Now obviously I wouldn't have put it in those terms when I was 6 or 7 years old, but it was the feeling I had.

Like a lot of things, I grew tired of it though, and didn't listen to much radio for a little while until around the fall of 1984 when I started third grade. That was when two families moved to town that would have a huge impact on my life. One had a boy my age who would become my first real best friend and shape my humor, values, and even my vocabulary for the rest of my life, and the other had four kids who would change my life in many ways and a mother who would eventually become my stepmother.

That second boy my age was named Jackie, and he was the one who really introduced me to pop/rock music. He showed me that there were actually three of those top 40 stations in town, not just KTAM. See, this made it all different for me. I wasn't just following the crowd. I had choices! As it turns out, I discovered that most of the kids at school by that time were listening to the newest of the pop stations, KKYS (Kiss 105.) So I chose the third option, KTAW (92-K) to be my favorite. Not by carefully listening and determining it to be the best, but because it was the choice that was least talked about by the crowd. Are you sensing the pattern, here?

You can't make me.

Nah, I'm not about putting unreasonable restrictions on people.

So, in a way, you could say "utilitarian" can also mean "non-conformist." Because sometimes, it's not even about what actually works, it's more about wanting for it to be my idea and not forced upon me by someone else. I hate being a copycat, being unoriginal, doing stuff because it's what everybody else is doing or because "that's just the way it's done." I can love other people coming up with new ideas too, but I still don't even entirely want to do it their way, I always want to put my own stamp on it, in some way create something else out of it. It's like a hunger to be my own man and follow my own ways, yes, indeed, a "rebel without a cause."

"No high-flown speculation for the Artisan, no deep meaning or introspection. Leave to others the protocol, the scientific inquiry, the inward search. SPs focus on what actually happens in the real world, on what works, what pays off, and not on whose toes get stepped on, what principles are involved, or why things happen."

I think this is basically true, but this may be the first real place in the chapter where Dr. K paints with a little too broad a brush, because I think the Feeling Artisans (especially ISFPs) differ a bit here. I don't want to step on any toes if I can avoid it (you know, unless she's hot and she's into that for some reason) and I DO have principles. I want everybody to be having a good time, but preferably in ways that don't hurt people. And I obviously have done some inward searching, I figure just about everybody has. But I can tell just from reading the topics on this forum that very obviously I don't do it as much as some of you do. I don't have to try to "find myself." I found myself years ago, and I've been stuck with me ever since. Sure, sometimes I might wanna get away from myself, but I always come back to me, like the prodigal son, I welcome me back with open arms and get me some food and something to drink....okay, that's just weird, sorry.

Overall summary would be, somebody tells me something, immediate brain reaction is "why do I need to know this? Is it useful to me in any way?" Now the use doesn't have to be anything more than amusement. If it's a funny anecdote, then that's all it has to do. If it goes beyond that, for instance someone wanting to teach me something, then I've got to see some practical use for whatever it is. I don't have a desire to learn something just to know it. If I can't do anything with it, then blah. It's kinda like a constant, natural panning for gold of ideas. I'm gonna toss all the rocks and shells and crap (you know, unless they're cool looking) because I'm looking for the gold. There's only so much time in the day, the week, the month, the year, LIFE, to waste time on filling my head with useless info. Now, my definition of useless might be totally different than many other people's. There's lots of stuff I know that a lot of people get nothing out of. For instance, I know a lot of music chart trivia and info about the musical artists. Most of this I have acquired from my years of listening to top 40 radio countdown shows. I've now got a collection of over 2000 of them on CD or on the computer. Now, for some people, that's just useless info, for others, it's actually interesting, and I have amused and amazed several people with my ability to "name that tune", "name that album", "name that artist", "name how high that song got on the charts", etc. So for me, it HAS been useful, for my own and others' amusement.

So, I'll let that stuff sink in for a bit, and next time, we'll talk a little about tactics.

 

[sarah]

"No high-flown speculation for the Artisan, no deep meaning or introspection. Leave to others the protocol, the scientific inquiry, the inward search. SPs focus on what actually happens in the real world, on what works, what pays off, and not on whose toes get stepped on, what principles are involved, or why things happen."

I think this is basically true, but this may be the first real place in the chapter where Dr. K paints with a little too broad a brush, because I think the Feeling Artisans (especially ISFPs) differ a bit here. I don't want to step on any toes if I can avoid it (you know, unless she's hot and she's into that for some reason) and I DO have principles. I want everybody to be having a good time, but preferably in ways that don't hurt people. And I obviously have done some inward searching, I figure just about everybody has. But I can tell just from reading the topics on this forum that very obviously I don't do it as much as some of you do. I don't have to try to "find myself." I found myself years ago, and I've been stuck with me ever since. Sure, sometimes I might wanna get away from myself, but I always come back to me, like the prodigal son, I welcome me back with open arms and get me some food and something to drink....okay, that's just weird, sorry.

RRrrrrrg! I HATE that line of Keirsey's! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! It's so untrue! And I vividly recall trashing Keirsey on another type discussion list for sentences just like this one! I see myself as very introspective, and I do very much care whether or not I end up stepping on other people to get what I want. My aim isn't to get what I want regardless of whom I hurt. It's stuff like this that made me totally dismiss the SP temperament as being a bunch of moral morons who have nothing in common with me, and it took me a LOOOOONG time to finally figure out that the Artisan pattern fit me much more than the Idealist temperament pattern, but first I had to totally forget about stupid lines from Please Understand Me like the one just quoted. It's true that I don't concern myself with scientific inquiry and protocol, but I hate how he reduces SPs to describing them as people who think there's NO value at all in introspection -- notice he says "NO interest", not just "a different, more concrete, practical kind of interest". I know Keirsey has no regard at all for the cognitive functions, but how can you possibly be dominant Fi and not consider all the time whether some action you're about to take is in line with what you believe is worth caring about? I do believe there's a subtle but real difference between the kind of "inward searching" that Idealists tend to do and the kind that some SPs like me do, but it sure doesn't help clarify the difference if Keirsey dismisses SPs by saying they "never" take into consideration anything but our present moment urges. Keirsey totally missed the boat with that one.

Besides, I've actually learned things just to know them, unlike you. If something strikes me as being entertaining, I learn it. Maybe it'll come in useful someday, but that's not the point -- the point is, for some weird reason it pleases me to know about it.

yeah, I know, I'm ruining this for you, aren't I?

Sarah
ISFP
.

 

[Jeffster]

yeah, I know, I'm ruining this for you, aren't I?

Nah. There were definitely places in the book (and not just the Artisan parts) where I found myself wishing he's put "many" or "often" instead of just making blanket statements. But when I thought about more, I came to the conclusion that he was just trying to be confident in his presentation, and the entire concept of personality types or temperaments doesn't hold at all unless you can say "well, that's not entirely true for me (or someone I know) but I can see the overall pattern." Believe me, that's tough for me to do too. When I first read Keirsey's description of "Dionysians" in the original "Please Understand Me", I dismissed completely as being totally not me, because I focused on what I considered negative about it, and thought of it as only presenting the type of person I went to high school with who cared about nothing but getting drunk all the time, and I hated those people. Later on, though, I was able to admit that a whole lot of it fit me, because I had all those impulses he was talking about, I just dealt with them in a different way.

I think he's got to be simplistic sometimes when he's describing millions of people at the same time. I mean, heck., watch the political party conventions. There's not even four groups then, there's two. And they'll make blanket statements like "Democrats believe in.." and "Republicans believe in..." and obviously there's people watching who are members of that party who may completely disagree on that issue, but they accept it because of their overall identification. I think that's what I've done with the Artisan temperament, and you'll notice that I focus a lot more on how certain things manifest themselves through me, and less time nitpicking if a certain line doesn't really strike me as accurate, because in anything written to describe millions (or perhaps billions) of people, is going to have some elements that don't apply to everybody.

Now, if I get done with this and find you've deleted your post again, you're going to owe me a coke.

 

[Jeffster]

Besides, I've actually learned things just to know them, unlike you. If something strikes me as being entertaining, I learn it. Maybe it'll come in useful someday, but that's not the point -- the point is, for some weird reason it pleases me to know about it.
.

I just talked about that, though. Entertainment is a use, whether for you or someone else. So, it's not really "just to know them" because you are getting an immediate use out of it!

 

[sarah]

Nah. There were definitely places in the book (and not just the Artisan parts) where I found myself wishing he's put "many" or "often" instead of just making blanket statements. But when I thought about more, I came to the conclusion that he was just trying to be confident in his presentation, and the entire concept of personality types or temperaments doesn't hold at all unless you can say "well, that's not entirely true for me (or someone I know) but I can see the overall pattern." Believe me, that's tough for me to do too. When I first read Keirsey's description of "Dionysians" in the original "Please Understand Me", I dismissed completely as being totally not me, because I focused on what I considered negative about it, and thought of it as only presenting the type of person I went to high school with who cared about nothing but getting drunk all the time, and I hated those people. Later on, though, I was able to admit that a whole lot of it fit me, because I had all those impulses he was talking about, I just dealt with them in a different way.

I think he's got to be simplistic sometimes when he's describing millions of people at the same time. I mean, heck., watch the political party conventions. There's not even four groups then, there's two. And they'll make blanket statements like "Democrats believe in.." and "Republicans believe in..." and obviously there's people watching who are members of that party who may completely disagree on that issue, but they accept it because of their overall identification. I think that's what I've done with the Artisan temperament, and you'll notice that I focus a lot more on how certain things manifest themselves through me, and less time nitpicking if a certain line doesn't really strike me as accurate, because in anything written to describe millions (or perhaps billions) of people, is going to have some elements that don't apply to everybody.

Now, if I get done with this and find you've deleted your post again, you're going to owe me a coke.

Oh... where were you five years ago when I was trying to figure all this out by myself, with no other SPs available to give me feedback?

Okay, yeah, I get what you're saying. I also get that Keirsey may have thought he had to exaggerate to make a point, but I wish he'd been more careful about how some of his statements might sound to people who are confused over the difference between a preference for Feeling and the Idealist tempearment.

This particular phrase is near the top of my Most Disliked Keirsey Phrases list, actually, so I admit that it tends to set me off.. (my top most hated line is the one in PUMII that says that SJs and SPs are "incapable" of thinking about abstract topics for more than a few minutes at a time. Well, what sort of abstraction is he talking about? Quantum physics? String theory? Boring, unreadable essays written by Emmanuel Kant? Okay, then he has a point. But type theory is also an abstract topic, and there are a number of SJs and SPs who find it useful.)

I just talked about that, though. Entertainment is a use, whether for you or someone else. So, it's not really "just to know them" because you are getting an immediate use out of it!

Haahaaaaa! Good point -- entertainment IS HIGHLY useful! Otherwise I'd be sad and bored. Thanks for clarifying, Jeffster.

Sarah
ISFP

 

[Jeffster]

Oh... where were you five years ago when I was trying to figure all this out by myself, with no other SPs available to give me feedback?

Well, let's see..five years ago, personality type stuff was not anywhere near the front of my mind. My son was 4 and a month into his very first year of school (Head Start) and most of any time I spent on internet forums was on the ones for Texas Tech football and Houston Rockets basketball. Oh, and Radio & Records' forums as well. I had taken an online test somewhere around 02 I think, and identified as ISFP, and I actually printed the thing out and gave it to my co-workers (who botched it up completely because they all took it together and discussed the answers as they were doing it and all that stuff that makes results not valid anyway.) But it was probably out of my head a few days later, and the idea of spending time discussing it or joining a forum devoted to it would have sounded pretty unappealing to me I'm sure.

Okay, yeah, I get what you're saying. I also get that Keirsey may have thought he had to exaggerate to make a point, but I wish he'd been more careful about how some of his statements might sound to people who are confused over the difference between a preference for Feeling and the Idealist tempearment.

This particular phrase is near the top of my Most Disliked Keirsey Phrases list, actually, so I admit that it tends to set me off.. (my top most hated line is the one in PUMII that says that SJs and SPs are "incapable" of thinking about abstract topics for more than a few minutes at a time. Well, what sort of abstraction is he talking about? Quantum physics? String theory? Boring, unreadable essays written by Emmanuel Kant? Okay, then he has a point. But type theory is also an abstract topic, and there are a number of SJs and SPs who find it useful.)

You make very good points, and do think Keirsey makes a mistake in dismissing the psychological function aspect of it completely, this glossing over some of the information that could help confused people figure out why they can identify strongly with certain elements of the descriptions of two different temperaments (or even more.)

Luckily, I didn't stop at just one person's take, and I've gathered quite a bit of information, and hope to do whatever I can, whenever I can, to clear up confusion by discussing the reality of the "gray areas" and the functional stuff that explains why people often mix up types because they aren't as clear-cut as some people present.

(that paragraph made so much more sense in my head and I got total brain block trying to actually type it out)

Haahaaaaa! Good point -- entertainment IS HIGHLY useful! Otherwise I'd be sad and bored. Thanks for clarifying, Jeffster.

Oh yeah, entertainment good. Boredom bad. See, SPs can be eloquent with words.

 

[sarah]

Luckily, I didn't stop at just one person's take, and I've gathered quite a bit of information, and hope to do whatever I can, whenever I can, to clear up confusion by discussing the reality of the "gray areas" and the functional stuff that explains why people often mix up types because they aren't as clear-cut as some people present.

(that paragraph made so much more sense in my head and I got total brain block trying to actually type it out)

Hey, no problem, I got what you were saying. I did the same thing, and fortunately people who knew what they were talking about steered me in the right direction. Otherwise I'd have spent the rest of my life being an IXFP.

Oh yeah, entertainment good. Boredom bad. See, SPs can be eloquent with words.

Sometimes as eloquent as their actions, even! As the Cat in the Hat (who was obviously an SP) liked to put it: "These things are fun and fun is good."

Sarah
ISFP

 

[Mort Belfry]

"Much of everyday Artisan speech is lively, filled with vivid, unorthodox terms, though not much abstract. SPs like to use colorful phrases and current slang in their speech, and they pick up hip phrases quickly.... When they reach for images, they tend to use quick, sensory adjectives or they say what things are like, using rather striking similes."















There are obviously many more examples of this I could post, but I feel like that ought to be plenty to illustrate the main stuff. You can see definite examples of the primary characteristics Keirsey points out in this section within those stories I told, several of which I posted before I had even read PUMII, so the act of telling those was not any attempt to demonstrate these things at the time. It was simply the natural way in which I relate things when it comes to words.

Jeffster I had no idea you were so well read, so many quotations.

Sure, they're all quotes of yourself, but then aptness of verse with egoism is better than eclecticism with confusion.

 

[sarah]

Jeffster I had no idea you were so well read, so many quotations.

Sure, they're all quotes of yourself, but then aptness of verse with egoism is better than eclecticism with confusion.

Oh ppfffft! This thread is great. Keep it up, Jeffster. You've got a good thing going.

Sarah
ISFP

 

[Jeffster]

LOL BUMP

err..I mean...



Tactical Intellect



"What Artisans do most and best is work on their immediate environs in a tactical way. Tactics is the art of making moves to better one's position in the here and now, whether these moves are are dabbing oils on canvas, flying in rough weather, dishing off the basketball on a fast-break, or skirmishing on the battlefield. Contrast this to Strategy, which is the art of making moves to better one's position in the future.

SP battle leaders are no different from SP painters, pilots, or point guards: they are always scanning for opportunities, always looking for the best angle of approach, and so are able to come up with that particular action which at the moment gives them the greatest advantage, that brings success. Robert E. Lee, George Patton, and Erwin Rommel were all brilliant SP tactical leaders, able to notice the smallest details in their immediate surroundings, the slightest changes in foreground and background, which allowed them to grasp the moment and exploit fully whatever resources were at hand.

But whether on the battlefield or the stage, in the corporate suite or the political arena, SPs are busy making maneuvers with equipment of all sorts, from paint brushes to basketballs, jet planes to tanks-even singers, dancers, and actors call their voice or their body to be their "instrument", and comedians describe their skill with an audience as "working the room". Artisans can handle equipment in an expediting or an improvising way-or both-but they are interested first, last, and always in working with equipment."

We'll take your pitchfork before you even know we're there because you're too busy dreaming about what you're gonna do with it.

Some of y'all definitely got an overthinking problem. Life's too short to worry if someone is showing you their "true self" online. I mean, if you actually plan to have a real life relationship with someone, that's one thing. But if all you do is talk to a person online, then react to the self they show you, and get on with your life!

This has been "Practical Advice from the Jeffster." Join us next time for when I explain the proper way to get ants out of a blender.

Thread title - "Who sucks?":

I just back to town and that's a lot of pages to read through. Has anybody said "Your mom" yet?

You just let me know whose head I need to bust, Sunnie.

That's my favorite line in that whole book. I've never read a better description of that. The next action is a free variable. That is what I live for right there.

Just don't click on it.

Problem solved.

(the preceding brought to you by JTS (Jeffster's Tactical Solutions), Corp. All rights reserved.

Meanwhile, here I am on a Thursday morning with no clean socks for work. So, do I go foot commando or do I put on dirty socks after my shower? These are the kind of dilemmas an SP faces in life.

Speaking of mornings, that's when the tactics begin at my place. More often than not, I wake up late and have immediate decisions to make about how much time I have to get ready for work and get my son to school, and have to decide in what order do I do these tasks to try to make both of us as on time as possible. Some days I realize I can still get Morgan to school in time for breakfast, so I focus entirely on crowbarring him out of bed and staying on him, badgering him hard until he's dressed and ready, I just throw on some pants and my shoes and whatever shirt I slept in, and then I drive him to school and drop him off before coming back home to jump in the shower and get myself ready. Sometimes I end up late anyway, but at least one of us was on time. Other days I realize I'm not going to get him there in time for breakfast so I let him take a little more time to get going in his unhurrying style and focus on getting myself ready so I get him breakfast on the go, get him there just a couple minutes late and get myself to work on time because I'm ready to go straight from the school to my office.

Once I get to the office, I have to scan my surroundings, check what stacks of paperwork I've been given, where and what I left off on the previous day and what I need to start doing before the phone calls start coming in. The phone calls themselves are another opportunity for tactics, as I've got to catch on to the scammers, decide whether a call for the owners or GMs is legit or just sales call, take sales numbers from the managers, get the managers who need to perform tasks on their store computers to take care of those, pay attention to whether the tasks I'm having my computer take care of are working properly, all the while not losing track of the work I started doing before the phone rang and be able to pick up where I left off or decide that work needs to be set aside to deal with a different problem or task that has arisen and needs a solution now.

When I still worked in the actual Subway restaurants as a manager, I did have a morning routine, but I still had to react to what was presented to me when I got there in the morning. Did the closer clean the store thoroughly? Did they pan the right amount of bread and prep the right meats/veggies for the morning? Did they handle the cash properly or leave me with improper safe deposits and overrings? Then I had to prioritize and decide quickly what order to do the needed tasks to give us the best chance of getting open on time with all products available for sale and the restaurant clean and ready for customers.


More to come...

 

[Jeffster]

Tactical Operators (STP)

"Operators work on the expediting side of tactical intelligence. They are the tough-minded Artisans, those SPs who are smart at working with people and machinery in order to advance their interests, and who are directive or quick to tell others what to do."

Shockingly, I'll take a break from quoting myself and get a little help from my friends on this one, since I'm not a T, I'll need to do a little bit of illustrating using my "Operator" brothers and sisters here on the forum....

Hmm, I don't know if I would really enjoy working in a factory, but for the general idea of mechanical things being fascinating, I definitely do.

A job I've always desired to be (not for life, but for some period of time) in is working in snowmaking for a ski area. Outdoors, large machines, with a semi-high danger level....heaven.

Back in high school I would only do my homework in class. I think the teachers just assumed I was taking notes. If I didn't finish, I'd just do it during lunch or right before it was due. If it still wasn't done, I didn't really care. I don't think I ever even studied once. Didn't matter, cause I went to college a year earlier anyway.

I remember once my parents threatened to take away my computer because I had low grades and was just playing video games. I said that was fine, but if they did that I wouldn't do any school work until I failed the class. I wasn't bluffing. They backed down. I passed the class.

And they say we have bad people skills.

Yeah, I've always had a fascination with weapons too. which led to me choreographing theatrical stage combat and being secretary in a fencing club.

Sports wise i am a risk-taker, thrill seeker. I play rugby which is a tough sport and not typically feminine. I adore the big hits and the adrenaline and the excitement. I adore the mud and the hurts and the bruises. Running for runnings sake bores me, the gym bores me, and yet in a match i never feel tired. I could play forever.
I naturally have good hand/eye co-ordination and good balance and a very good sense of awareness of the game and the players around me. I currently play for my club, county and region and want to play for my country. Although i never plan that far ahead. i just want to improve and play higher so i take each match as it comes.
During a match i am constantly thinking about the teams next move and my next move almost like high speed chess. While a lot of rugby players brains literally dont engage during the 80 minutes on the pitch, mine is always working. At the same time i am utterly fearless. I will run into anything and anyone without thought for consequence.

I absolutely love contact sport.
I like the bruises. the pain. it makes me feel something. Feel so alive.
I used to jump horses at a high level- a sport where fearlessness is a huge attribute.
I like to ski. Fast. off piste. over jumps. I have a lot of confidence in my ability to read the snow.
I also get injured rarely. i mean i have had broken bones and strains but as for the amount of what people deem risky activities that i do, i have a low injury rate. I like to think the risks i take are calculated and I have a good affinity with the physical world which helps minimise the risks.

Basically i will do any sport i think i will get a rush out of and train and play tirelessly. The rest of the time i am often seen as lazy. i often prefer to drive rather than walk and take a lift rather than stairs. I am always late and i value economy of effort and much prefer the most direct route from A to B. I cannot abide going for a walk just for the sake of it. Yet at the same time i greatly appreciate the aesthetic beauty of the physical world.

Temperament wise i am utterly calm and unemotional at all times. People cannot comprehend my complete emotional detachment. i am very good in a crisis and even on a night out drinking, if something goes wrong i will be the one who sobers up immediately and solves the problem.
When i go out i am often seen as extroverted in personality. I am outgoing, witty and a lot of fun. (So much so that a 'friend' told me i had my Myers briggs wrong and i was definitely an E)
Sometimes i am bubbly and childlike and love games. Sometimes i am sarcastic and dry in my humour. I often see interaction with other people as a game. i like to entertain myself by playing games with others.
When i am not in a social setting i need my alone time. My absolute alone time to think. I can spend days alone when i will read or write or just think. (although i realise a lot of the ISTP profiles state that reading is not a typical ISTP pastime- i see it as part of my introverted personality and part of my analysis of the world. ) I read crime and gritty thrillers- anything with some substance. Nothing depresses me more than a girly chick book.

I am often quiet and observe others particularly in a work environment. i see a lot and take it all in and remember it and i think others often think i am oblivious.

Routine work bores me utterly and i have struggled a lot with a lot of different jobs. I am soon starting in the police force which i hope will satisfy my need for action.

I am terribly messy and my bedroom is a tip- although i do know where everything is. i do make an effort to keep shared areas tidy. i have no wish to annoy my housemates. I can cope easily with other people's mess. i have no issues with people leaving their stuff everywhere.

I have a lot of friends although i do not think of them as friends as such. more like people i do things with. They dont know me really at all. They know the public me. I am a great listener and i will listen to friends for hours to gain information. I get on well with pretty much everyone i meet and i completely believe in equality and fairness for everyone. If someone pisses me off enough though i will cut them entirely from my life.
I sometimes get very angry about something- particularly if i am stressed, normally from being around too many stupid people. My anger passes as quickly as it has come. i sometimes say things in temper that people misinterpret or take too seriously. i am often unaware of the scars that my white hot rage has left behind.
I have a couple of close friends who i share personal things with to a degree. but i never really discuss feelings. I never really have feelings to the extent that i feel they require discussion. I tend to find logic can overcome emotion in most situations.

 

[Jeffster]

Tactical Entertainers (SFP)

"Drawn to the improvising side of tactical intelligence, Entertainers are the friendly, fond-hearted Artisans, those SPs who want to amuse or to charm others, and whose first impulse is to inform those around them by making or showing them something beautiful or exciting."

I'm all about how I make people feel. I don't want bad things to happen. I want exciting GOOD things to happen. I don't want to make people feel nervous and edgy, I want them to feel happy and thrilled, I want to cheer them up, make them laugh, in some cases I want them to make out with me. You know, good excitement. I mean, sure, every once in a while, it's kinda fun to piss someone off, but that's not my main purpose that's for sure.

Making an impact on someone. Sharing something beautiful or exciting with someone. Receiving gifts or just things like phone calls or internet messages.

I'm in the business of making wishes come true.

"Entertainers are able to use effortlessly whatever materials they find to wing it, to play it by ear, to fly by the seat of their pants---to make things up as they go along---far more comfortable sharing their creations with others than directing their actions. Like Operators, Entertainers have the the tactical ability to notice every sensual detail of their surroundings and to react spontaneously, adapting something on the spot, on the spur of the moment. They can hit upon ways of utilizing what's at hand to suit their current artistic intention, and they can do this without pre-planning. Entertainers use creatively whatever bits and scraps of material are actually present and immediately available."

I did this as a kid in school with creative writing, there were several times we had an assignment to write a brief story or paragraph using vocabulary words, and I would sometimes write multiple pages, taking the words and just flowing, belting out a kickass scene out of nowhere like taking geometry words and turning it into a sci-fi tv show episode with character names like Captain Scalene and writing about his adventures in the Pythagorean Quadrant. I wrote one in 4th grade where I went into a Hemingway-like nostalgia description of living on a farm and recalling rich sunsets and raccoons stealing corn, and filled with all sorts of overly descriptive BS that you find in those long overrated novels where they take like 5 pages describing a tree or something, but when I get on a roll I can spew that stuff onto a page too, it's like a geyser just shooting out word awesomeness and anyone reading it is getting sprayed like a mofo.

When I started writing poetry in high school, I didn't brainstorm or set up outlines or rhyme schemes or even think about a theme before I started writing, I just started writing, just flowing, emptying my brain onto the paper, sometimes finding a scheme or a theme or a motive as I went, but other times just flowing with random words and phrases, like a painter just throwing paint at a canvass, seeing what beauty or what ugliness or what form it would take.

In drama class and theater productions I was involved in, I always loved improv the best, because you didn't have to stick to a script, you could just use the setting or a prop or whatever you were given to just create and zing and badabing and boom, and the juices are flowing and you're just going.

When I first had a computer with net access I discovered great stuff like online role playing, irc chatting, and foruming, and at first I didn't do those things as myself ever, I created a multitude of characters and put them into whatever environment I could to ad lib and react spontaneously to the other people and the settings, digging for whatever creative forces I had within to play chatting and acting like it was some sort of keyboard tennis, taking the shots and sending them back with whatever type of return the situation called for. Like real tennis, there were plenty of double faults and netted volleys, but I didn't fold, I kept going right back to the line and trying more shots from different angles.

I'm at my best when I'm just riffing, like a guitarist on stage improvising freestyle, but I do it with dialogue and humor, responding to those "bits and scraps of material" that are in the form of what others say to me, whether over the internet, over the phone, from some other media, or in person, caught up in the artistic action of chatting and improvising, entertaining myself and others, feeding off that attention and that energy, the adrenaline, the flow of the conversation or the circumstances, it's a huge RUSH, living in that moment, using both instinctive and developed tactical intelligence to respond immediately in the moment with the best entertainment I can produce with the material and the opportunity I am given by the people and the environment that I find myself in.

Or you could kill them all, stuff them in sacks and throw them into the sea. Then, hey, free house.

---

Join us next time for another exciting adventure!

 

[sarah]

Tactical Entertainers (SFP)

"Drawn to the improvising side of tactical intelligence, Entertainers are the friendly, fond-hearted Artisans, those SPs who want to amuse or to charm others, and whose first impulse is to inform those around them by making or showing them something beautiful or exciting."[/b]

YEAH!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffster
I'm all about how I make people feel. I don't want bad things to happen. I want exciting GOOD things to happen. I don't want to make people feel nervous and edgy, I want them to feel happy and thrilled, I want to cheer them up, make them laugh, in some cases I want them to make out with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffster
I'm in the business of making wishes come true.

What thread did these two quotes come from? I love them! Where's that obnoxious but nonetheless necessary blinking heart emoticon? Oh here. See, this is such a help, because even despite my believing I haven't been mistyped, I still get stuck wondering now and then if I'm an INFP because I'm very introspective and thoughtful (and there are still boatloads of people out there who think those terms apply to only Ns), and yet you've just mentioned exactly what brings me joy in life and makes me really feel intensely alive. I am so totally driven to charm other people and delight them. It's the motivator behind a lot of what I do, and why I love to surprise people with things I've made or done for them. It give me a huge, HUGE high. I've always privately described it to myself as "seducing" people into enjoying the possibilities in front of them, but I've never felt comfortable with that word because it's sexual and I don't mean it in that way.

Sarah