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Trump vs. Biden

Kingu Kurimuzon

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Plus here is how I see the map at this point. (it is pretty educated guess)







If Pennsylvania gets only a point or two more blue it will become likely D state and with that there will be 270 just in Safe D and Likely D. What makes it kind of a checkmate. Especially since there should be much more blue on the map than just 270. In the polls Georgia is very narrowly blue but I need another point or two to make it blue in my mind.

Even if Biden won the same states Clinton won in 2016, plus Florida and Wisconsin, then he would still win. I set the map to the 2016 results and played around, flipping 2-3 states to blue, there are so many paths to victory for Biden if he just makes it over that relatively low bar set by Clinton. He just needs to keep the blue states from 2016 and add 2-3. This should be easy for him
 
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Plus here is how I see the map at this point. (it is pretty educated guess)







If Pennsylvania gets only a point or two more blue it will become likely D state and with that there will be 270 just in Safe D and Likely D. What makes it kind of a checkmate. Especially since there should be much more blue on the map than just 270. In the polls Georgia is very narrowly blue but I need another point or two to make it blue in my mind.

I just want to say that I feel reassured by your analysis since I feel like you tend to have a pretty sober and unbiased view of things (especially things happening in an American context).

I am inclined to think that the way the debate went, plus the diagnosis, makes things very bad for Trump. Although, we still don't know what the rest of the month holds. Covid has really changed my certainty about how a Biden vs. Trump matchup would go (not in Biden's favor), and doubly so now that the President has it. I'm not sure I buy the fact that if he died he would be a martyr (is the "free to not wear masks" thing really just about not wearing masks? I don't think so), although I do see conspiracy theories emerging if he did die.

The thing about Biden is that he's all about promising a return to normalcy. Pre-covid, I wasn't convinced that that was something that enough people wanted all that much. I hate to say it, but I'm not sure kids in cages would motivate people enough because it's not happening to them, and the economy was doing relatively well . All the "abnormal" things pre-covid were so abstract and so removed for a lot of people beyond fervent political junkies, but there is nothing abstract about lockdowns, quarantines, and the death of family members. It's now a much more attractive sell for people, given just how much things have changed.

Realistically, I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle, though. Things are going to stay strange.
 

Virtual ghost

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Even if Biden won the same states Clinton won in 2016, plus Florida and Wisconsin, then he would still win. I set the map to the 2016 results and played around, flipping 2-3 states to blue, there are so many paths to victory for Biden if he just makes it over that relatively low bar set by Clinton. He just needs to keep the blue states from 2016 and add 2-3. This should be easy for him


True, but Florida is something on what you can't really count. Therefore the path through PA, MI and WI is more realistic one. Although it would be strange if he takes all 4 of those states (and in that case he evidently wins). Plus there are some freaky paths that aren't likely.
 

Virtual ghost

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I just want to say that I feel reassured by your analysis since I feel like you tend to have a pretty sober and unbiased view of things (especially things happening in an American context).

I am inclined to think that the way the debate went, plus the diagnosis, makes things very bad for Trump. Although, we still don't know what the rest of the month holds. Covid has really changed my certainty about how a Biden vs. Trump matchup would go (not in Biden's favor), and doubly so now that the President has it. I'm not sure I buy the fact that if he died he would be a martyr (is the "free to not wear masks" thing really just about not wearing masks? I don't think so), although I do see conspiracy theories emerging if he did die.

The thing about Biden is that he's all about promising a return to normalcy. Pre-covid, I wasn't convinced that that was something that enough people wanted all that much. I hate to say it, but I'm not sure kids in cages would motivate people enough because it's not happening to them, and the economy was doing relatively well . All the "abnormal" things pre-covid were so abstract and so removed for a lot of people beyond fervent political junkies, but there is nothing abstract about lockdowns, quarantines, and the death of family members. It's now a much more attractive sell for people, given just how much things have changed.

Realistically, I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle, though. Things are going to stay strange.



Well, sometimes the best way to see the big picture is to look from far way. But the thing is that I am probably overthinking all this, although all of this will probably effect me quite a bit however the saga ends. So I am also in the game but on the sideways.


The thing is that if you want to improve things further you first have to get back to some kind of "old school" normal. You simply can't really go anywhere while the pandemic lasts and that has to be solved first. Plus since I went through the corona elections myself I dare to claim that the votes will be on the side of those that offers clear vision on COVID (especially if the other side doesn't do that). Because this is simply the top subject on the menu and you can't really debate anything else without mentioning COVID on some way.
 

Jaguar

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Poll Finds Voters in Two Crucial States Repelled by Trump’s Debate Behavior
Biden is ahead by seven points in Pennsylvania and five points in Florida, according to the Times/Siena survey.

Repelled. Heh.

“I think that Donald Trump acted like a big bully on the stage,” said Cindy Von Waldner, 63, a lifelong Republican from Titusville, Fla. The president began to lose her support when the pandemic hit, and she said she did not believe he took it seriously enough or was transparent enough with the American people. She said she would most likely vote for Mr. Biden, her first time casting a Democratic ballot.

In a direct comparison with a Times/Siena survey of Pennsylvania conducted before the debate, the president’s personal ratings slumped across the board. The share of voters who thought Mr. Trump had the temperament and personality to be president dropped by more than a net 10 percentage points.
 

Virtual ghost

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But to be honest Trump's 2016 campaign was much better. He opened a number of painful but big topics and he was a jerk, but with certain witty charm. While in the 2020 the magic simply isn't there. He is too arrogant and without enough results. Also he sees Antifa everywhere and denies the scale of pandemic. Therefore the positive side of the campaign simply isn't there anymore. What is because he choose completely wrong strategy and even good chunk of his base knows it. You can't talk about "China virus" every day and then mock people that wear masks (on live TV). That simply doesn't add up as logic. If China indeed created "the plague" on purpose then everyone has to wear a mask and be careful in general, without many buts and ifs.


Also in the case that the pandemic hit the world as it did but situation in US remained generally under control now we would be talking about red wave for sure. Since that evidently would happen in the case that it took it seriously. Because in that case he would come as genuine wartime president that is handling the situation the best he can. Plus even his own positive test as the news wouldn't be such drama, since it would be just a tragedy that didn't brake the narrative. While in current timeline he created a fault line in his own campaign. The virus can't hurt anybody but I am going to hospital anyway, that doesn't add up. I can even understand the initial reaction but after weeks of mess he should have understood how this game works. I can even swallow "people need to work" due to how the system is set. But trivializing masks and not saying to his own base to protect themselves and stop the anti-mask spam is simply wrong. Especially if you do it over and over again. So yeah, it looks as he will lose and it really is his own fault for the most part.
 

The Cat

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But to be honest Trump's 2016 campaign was much better. He opened a number of painful but big topics and he was a jerk, but with certain witty charm. While in the 2020 the magic simply isn't there. He is too arrogant and without enough results. Also he sees Antifa everywhere and denies the scale of pandemic. Therefore the positive side of the campaign simply isn't there anymore. What is because he choose completely wrong strategy and even good chunk of his base knows it. You can't talk about "China virus" every day and then mock people that wear masks (on live TV). That simply doesn't add up as logic. If China indeed created "the plague" on purpose then everyone has to wear a mask and be careful in general, without many buts and ifs.


Also in the case that the pandemic hit the world as it did but situation in US remained generally under control now we would be talking about red wave for sure. Since that evidently would happen in the case that it took it seriously. Because in that case he would come as genuine wartime president that is handling the situation the best he can. Plus even his own positive test as the news wouldn't be such drama, since it would be just a tragedy that didn't brake the narrative. While in current timeline he created a fault line in his own campaign. The virus can't hurt anybody but I am going to hospital anyway, that doesn't add up. I can even understand the initial reaction but after weeks of mess he should have understood how this game works. I can even swallow "people need to work" due to how the system is set. But trivializing masks and not saying to his own base to protect themselves and stop the anti-mask spam is simply wrong. Especially if you do it over and over again. So yeah, it looks as he will lose and it really is his own fault for the most part.

Pretty sure he sees his death outside the white house. I'm pretty sure people dont survive debts like he has...that's bound to stick in a guy's head. Which I think explains the aura of desperation energy he seems to have this time.
 

Lexicon

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Not to derail, but can we like, stick this to the top of the thread? I feel like it belongs here.

OOy7mTI.jpg
 

Z Buck McFate

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2eb837d7cf5d3ca44d3c6c39a18d449b.png


I don't know (yet) if this is true, but I do know it's believable.
 

ceecee

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Z Buck McFate

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The Biden criticism kinda mystifies me. I mean, it seems to me like something a person would only see via confirmation bias. Not a whole lot of people (who aren't aggressive narcissists themselves) can stay focused in that kind of lightning round format of debate with someone as belligerent and bullying (by design), where there's no time to hold anyone to the fire for more thorough answers. I sure as hell wouldn't have been able to stay as composed as he did (and to add to my point, I've never struggled with stuttering).

I mean, he wasn't as smooth as Obama would have been or as Harris would have been - but I bet he did better than Kavanaugh would have. (I mean, if Harris was able to draw what she did out of Kavanaugh, can you imagine what the equivalent of Trump would have done to him?)

:shrug:
 

Virtual ghost

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Few days later


Alaska: Trump +4.0
Arizona: Biden +3.9
Colorado: Biden +10.7
Florida: Biden +2.3
Georgia: Biden +0.5
Iowa: Trump +0.4
Maine 2nd: Biden +3.7
Michigan: Biden +7.2
Minnesota: Biden +9.2
Missouri: Trump +6.3
Montana: Trump +7.7
Nebraska 2nd: Biden +5.9
Nevada: Biden +6.9
New Hampshire: Biden +9.1
North Carolina: Biden +1.2
Ohio: Biden +1.4
Pennsylvania: Biden +5.8
South Carolina: Trump +5.7
Texas: Trump +1.6
Virginia: Biden +10.6
Wisconsin: Biden +7.0


The new week is starting so lets see where we are by 538.




Alaska: Trump +5.8
Arizona: Biden +3.4
Colorado: Biden +11.7
Florida: Biden +2.9
Georgia: Biden +0.6
Iowa: Trump +1.4
Maine 2nd: Biden +3.6
Michigan: Biden +6.9
Minnesota: Biden +9.1
Missouri: Trump +6.4
Montana: Trump +8.3
Nebraska 2nd: Biden +5.8
Nevada: Biden +6.0
New Hampshire: Biden +9.5
North Carolina: Biden +1.4
Ohio: Biden +0.7
Pennsylvania: Biden +6.0
South Carolina: Trump +5.7
Texas: Trump +2.4
Virginia: Biden +11.3
Wisconsin: Biden +6.8


Mostly minor changes that are standard up and down.
Also states that are more clearly to the red or blue side seem to become more "partisan" and thus move further toward their party. Although the important development is that Florida and Pennsylvania are getting more blue. Since those two will probably have a major say in who is the winner (and together they are 59 electoral votes). The issue of a positive test still didn't have the time to fully kick in, especially due to the weekend days.
 

Virtual ghost

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I mean it seems that Trump is going to lose this electoral fight. But for me that isn't the real fight. The real fight starts when you get new president and by this I mean that there is country that needs to be saved. I mean even solving COVID wouldn't really do the job because the country was going bankrupt even before the pandemic.


Usdebtclock.org


In other words you don't really have to be economic genius to realize this is simply broken. So my question is what should Biden do in economic sense once the COVID is gone ? I mean what should he push in his campaign as the solutions to the problems in the economic foundations of the country ? (and that this solution is realistic one)


I know this is hard question but this is exactly why I ask.


EDIT: when you divide sum of all debts in US with population it turns out that everyone on average owns about 249 000 $ and is getting more debt. What evidently isn't sustainable even if there are no interest rates.
 

Jonny

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I think Trump's reelection is very meaningful to his supports for the same reason why defeating him is important to those of us who oppose this president.

In many ways, 2016 seemed like a cathartic rebuke of experts who had for years been telling middle America that their ways were ignorant and wrong. For those who support this president, that rebuke was true and represented evidence that these so-called "experts" were in fact fallible and had been corrupted by their liberal bias. Climate scientists, academics, the media, the pollsters...all of them were guilty of sacrificing their integrity for the sake of appeasing the woke mob at worst, or hopelessly blinded at best.

Speaking as someone who doesn't support the president, my characterization of 2016 was not as a rebuke of experts, but rather as a perfect storm of circumstances. Hillary Clinton was terribly unpopular. Donald Trump was an unknown politically, but "well known" as a successful businessman and television personality. The 2016 race, as evidenced by the polls, was extremely volatile with many undecided voters. The media narrative, perhaps sparked by the Comey letter in the final week of the campaign, swung against Clinton in favor of Trump at just the right time. Undecided voters broke for Trump in the voting booth by large margins, and he won the electoral college via thin margins in three rust-belt states while losing the popular vote.

In 2020, these two understandings will be pitted against each other, and the results will possibly redefine these perceptions and the last four years. If Trump wins (especially if he wins despite polls continuing to overwhelmingly favor Biden), Trump supporters will be vindicated: 2016 wasn't just a fluke; their mistrust of experts is warranted; and the woke liberal crazies will be shown to be completely out of sync with reality, as was always expected.

If Trump loses (especially if results come fairly close to what the polls appear to be suggesting), Trump will go down as a one-term, failed president. He will leave the country worse off than when he entered office. His victory in 2016 will be recharacterized. Liberals will feel vindicated: 2016 was just a fluke, or a perfect storm of unlikely events; the mistrust of experts is misplaced and dangerous; and the ignorant Trumpsters will be shown to be completely out of sync with reality, as was expected.

The implications of this election go beyond policy. They extend to our very interpretation of reality, and our sense of self. The thing is, there is probably at least a grain of truth to both sides of this, though I suspect reality is much more in line with the second interpretation.

But, in all honestly, I have yet to hear a reasoned hypothesis for the Trump supporter narrative. Most people who think Trump will win tend to cite 2016 as their principal evidence. Barring some October surprise (which is still possible), this interpretation would have to mean that the polls are wrong yet again, and more importantly, that pollsters with a vested interest in correctly calling races haven't managed to learn how to correct for any mistakes that may have occurred in 2016. Again, this is in-line with the mistrust of experts. But, it is also quite pessimistic in the ability of humanity to systematically analyze and assess uncertain events and offer up useful predictions.


This is the contrast:

Finding empirical bases for predicting the future is a little like dancing about architecture.


We all choose our preferred tea leaves to read, but I do think that betting odds (folks with skin in the game) are less likely to have the patina of wish casting that so much of polling seems to wear. Their only job is to make money.


To each their own.

This is utter nonsense. Human success is founded on learning about the world through empirical observation and using that knowledge to predict the future. It's how people hunted, fished, made fire.
 
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