The Problem of Disinformation

[Red Herring]

If what the "cartoon" message was correct than this thread would be senseless.

Its still a lack of real independent and good critical thinking. A lot of stuff are just copy and paste, and its exactly with these copy and paste that massive misinformation spread.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. Could you please elaborate?

 

[Mad Hatter]

If what the "cartoon" message was correct than this thread would be senseless.

Its still a lack of real independent and good critical thinking. A lot of stuff are just copy and paste, and its exactly with these copy and paste that massive misinformation spread.

If the cartoon message is "everyone's an idiot except for me", then - no, definitely not.

Critical thinking, above everything else, must be able to critisize itself, its process and its results. Otherwise it wouldn't be critical thinking at all.
I hear a lot of people going on about "we have to teach critical thinking", by which they mean teaching people "Don't believe everything you see or hear". Often enough, however, people take this as carte blanche and turn it into "I don't have to believe anything when I don't agree with it". Critical thinking in the proper sense also means "If it is true, believe it, even if you don't like it". - You're not expected to like it, but you're expected to acknowledge it.

What is often ignored is the other side of critical thinking: Knowing your own limitations and knowing when you're out of your depth, often combined with a sense of superiority towards others (i.e. the sense of being surrounded by "sheeple", as in the cartoon).

 

[Red Herring]

If the cartoon message is "everyone's an idiot except for me", then - no, definitely not.

Critical thinking, above everything else, must be able to critisize itself, its process and its results. Otherwise it wouldn't be critical thinking at all.
I hear a lot of people going on about "we have to teach critical thinking", by which they mean teaching people "Don't believe everything you see or hear". Often enough, however, people take this as carte blanche and turn it into "I don't have to believe anything when I don't agree with it". Critical thinking in the proper sense also means "If it is true, believe it, even if you don't like it". - You're not expected to like it, but you're expected to acknowledge it.

What is often ignored is the other side of critical thinking: Knowing your own limitations and knowing when you're out of your depth, often combined with a sense of superiority towards others (i.e. the sense of being surrounded by "sheeple", as in the cartoon).

+1

 

[Z Buck McFate]

This but I'd take it a step further. The media needs to stop treating absolutely everything Trump does as important.

Everything he says, everything he tweets, every rumor he shares as fact, every time his lard ass is sitting in a golf cart. Trump is interested in one thing - maintaining his celebrity. It's how he got elected - it certainly wasn't on past job performance. The media is responsible for making him a celebrity. Take away even 50% of that attention would be enormously beneficial to the American people as a whole.

In the end the American people need to learn the difference between opinion and fact and commentary and reporting. The vast majority of what is "media" is churnalism filled with churnalists. That's because they fired all the actual journalists.

Yes. If by some miracle of fate we could collectively accomplish this, I'm convinced he'd go away. At least 90% of his 'power' comes from his ability to sow chaos and use it for smoke and mirrors.

I've even heard Bill Maher acknowledge this a few times on his show, but he can't even internalize it enough to do one whole episode without throwing a lot of shade at everything Trump did the previous week. The urge to vent is just too strong.

 

[ceecee]

Yes. If by some miracle of fate we could collectively accomplish this, I'm convinced he'd go away. At least 90% of his 'power' comes from his ability to sow chaos and use it for smoke and mirrors.

I've even heard Bill Maher acknowledge this a few times on his show, but he can't even internalize it enough to do one whole episode without throwing a lot of shade at everything Trump did the previous week. The urge to vent is just too strong.

Oh I understand the urge to vent. More than that, the occasional person I come across that deny, ironically, that the disaster that is the Trump administration is simply liberal disinformation and misunderstanding on my part. I will eventually place Trump with Washington and Lincoln as one of the greatest presidents of all time. I can't even vent about that, and that's the point we are at. It's just a straight up in desperate need of deprogramming cult member. Ignoring even a small percentage of Trump, by media of all kinds, might help these sad messed up people.

 

[Vendrah]

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. Could you please elaborate?

I wrote in a hurry and my first phrase was a terrible writing. Correcting it: If the cartoon's message is correct, then this thread would not exist.

The cartoon gives the idea that people in general thinks that they are independent thinkers and others are sheep. If that is correct, then there would not be a massive spread of misinformation. These spreads of misinformation are related to people quickly copying and pasting stuff on whatsapp, social media, etc... So, either few people really think that way (independent thinking) and/or most people are hypocrite on that aspect. Better explained, I think?

If the cartoon message is "everyone's an idiot except for me", then - no, definitely not.

Critical thinking, above everything else, must be able to critisize itself, its process and its results. Otherwise it wouldn't be critical thinking at all.
I hear a lot of people going on about "we have to teach critical thinking", by which they mean teaching people "Don't believe everything you see or hear". Often enough, however, people take this as carte blanche and turn it into "I don't have to believe anything when I don't agree with it". Critical thinking in the proper sense also means "If it is true, believe it, even if you don't like it". - You're not expected to like it, but you're expected to acknowledge it.

What is often ignored is the other side of critical thinking: Knowing your own limitations and knowing when you're out of your depth, often combined with a sense of superiority towards others (i.e. the sense of being surrounded by "sheeple", as in the cartoon).

I think the better explanation of my post that I gave above clarify that I dont disagree with you.

 

[ygolo]

This may be relevant: What's The Harm?

This is mostly harm that comes to people who believe disinformation.

 

[á´…eparted]

This may be relevant: What's The Harm?

This is mostly harm that comes to people who believe disinformation.

My mother believes in around 80% of those items... some quite deeply/fervently. She is completely blind to the harm they have caused her, and is very fortunate much of it is not tangible, and is totally blind to the harm it causes others (even when directly pointed out).

 

[Deprecator]

One price that we all must pay in exchange for freedom is that we cannot protect people from themselves; if for whatever reason people want to blindly believe the advice of psychics or some similar superstition then that is most certainly one prerogative among many. By and large many of these superstitions are harmless; whether or not I personally believe the world is flat is largely immaterial to my day to day functioning. Just ask the people I work with -- I've long been telling them that there's plenty of evidence suggesting that photos from space have been doctored by the round earthers in an effort to both dupe and control the masses.

Now admittedly when people are in care taker roles and are acting on disinformation that could harm the people they care for, that is indeed troubling, and to this end we do have laws in place specifically designed to prevent the abuse and mistreatment of others. Of course I'd also want to take it a step further and implement a form of care taker licenses; sure it wouldn't be perfect but in theory it would further weed out those that, for whatever reason, are simply not qualified to care for others.

After a neighbor was murdered, he admitted to police that he had had a dream of a similar murder. A jury took just hours to convict him based on this

If there's one thing I've learned after watching law shows, doing my own reading about law and talking to lawyers, is that you should never talk to police. As I've understood it, if they have enough evidence to make an arrest then they will make that arrest -- nothing you can say is going to prevent that. On the flip side if they don't have enough evidence to make an arrest then saying literally anything at all can still help lead them to making that arrest.

At the same time if for whatever reason people still want to yap away with them about their dreams, how innocent they are, where they were the previous night or other intricate details about their personal lives -- then once again that is certainly one prerogative among many.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

How Wikipedia Prevents the Spread of Coronavirus Misinformation

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

This may be relevant: What's The Harm?

This is mostly harm that comes to people who believe disinformation.

I think there is also an issue with processing ideas as speculation vs. fact. There is a way that people can get those mixed up. Many things on those lists are speculative in nature, but many people approach it as fact.

A person can have an instinct or personal feeling that prods a decision for their own self, but it is not something to impose on anyone else. Even the choice of clothes in the morning falls under that subjective personal sense of reality and it can apply to the individual, but not to others. If someone likes aromatherapy because they find lavender calming, that is fine and is 'true' for them, but it doesn't mean it is the answer for someone else. It it important to have clear boundaries between personal and public information, and to use different reasoning tools for processing different types of information. Speculation is important to explore reality and formulate new questions, but it can become dangerous when used as fact. Also there are different sorts of speculation, which could form a discussion of its own.

 

[Maou]

I feel that disinformation is common on both sides, and it doesn't really affect most people in their everyday lives. It is why it exists to begin with. But when it comes to politics, disinformation is politics. Everything thrown around is to change your viewpoint, not actually do anything productive but get you to vote for whatever side paid the most to bombard you with whatever information they wanted to sell. So honestly, all the bickering over disinformation, is exactly what the politicians want you to do as they go about their business. Controversy sells. What goes on behind closed doors in office, is something probably a lot more simple and not the life and death situations the media makes them out to be.

People have to admit there is a severe biased in reporting when it comes to the main news networks. They are just as guilty of disinformation, if not more than anyone else. The evidence is overwhelming. They are especially prone to giving disinformation about Trump, which leads to a chain reaction on literally everything being disinformation, and it just piles up and up. He is frequently taken out of context or misrepresented intentionally, and his haters refuse to watch anything refuting their preconceived notions of context and understanding. Also severely lacking benefit of the doubt like a rational person would. I expect disinformation to happen to everyone, but the amount of misrepresentation Trump goes through is absurdly unfair compared to anyone else. Even in the time of crisis, the Democrats and the Liberal media can't set aside their differences to be honest. They were the reason the response to Covid-19 was delayed, and were the first to claim it was "Just the flu bruh, go outside". Pelosi even went to China town to say its perfectly safe to group up in mass gatherings. They called Trump Xenophobic and racist when he said he'd cut off all air travel from China when Covid first hit. Then in the next month, they lambaste him for not doing anything sooner. This is the shit that needs to stop. The news has become a cycle of "Trump said this, praise the opposite.". That is just stupid.

 

[ceecee]

I feel that disinformation is common on both sides, and it doesn't really affect most people in their everyday lives. It is why it exists to begin with. But when it comes to politics, disinformation is politics. Everything thrown around is to change your viewpoint, not actually do anything productive but get you to vote for whatever side paid the most to bombard you with whatever information they wanted to sell. So honestly, all the bickering over disinformation, is exactly what the politicians want you to do as they go about their business. Controversy sells. What goes on behind closed doors in office, is something probably a lot more simple and not the life and death situations the media makes them out to be.

People have to admit there is a severe biased in reporting when it comes to the main news networks. They are just as guilty of disinformation, if not more than anyone else. The evidence is overwhelming. They are especially prone to giving disinformation about Trump, which leads to a chain reaction on literally everything being disinformation, and it just piles up and up. He is frequently taken out of context or misrepresented intentionally, and his haters refuse to watch anything refuting their preconceived notions of context and understanding. Also severely lacking benefit of the doubt like a rational person would. I expect disinformation to happen to everyone, but the amount of misrepresentation Trump goes through is absurdly unfair compared to anyone else. Even in the time of crisis, the Democrats and the Liberal media can't set aside their differences to be honest. They were the reason the response to Covid-19 was delayed, and were the first to claim it was "Just the flu bruh, go outside". Pelosi even went to China town to say its perfectly safe to group up in mass gatherings. They called Trump Xenophobic and racist when he said he'd cut off all air travel from China when Covid first hit. Then in the next month, they lambaste him for not doing anything sooner. This is the shit that needs to stop. The news has become a cycle of "Trump said this, praise the opposite.". That is just stupid.

Where is the other side of your both side-ism?

 

[Maou]

Where is the other side of your both side-ism?

Just because its on both sides, doesn't mean it happens equally on both sides. I feel that the bias from the Liberal media is far higher, due to how many Liberal news channels there are vs Conservative. On TV you got Fox, vs CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC etc. More people get their news from the TV, than online news sites (not including social media, because that isn't news).

Then its a fact that social media does censor/moderate Right leaning view points far more often (in the open exchange of ideas), and have openly admitted it. In spite of it not breaking any rules, yet ignore Extremism on the Left. (more so targeting specific topics in their censorship, or just blocking people they do not like). Then the "Loud minority" of the Progressives dominates the internet, which include many extremists. Democrats rarely denounce these extremists, and will even support them. It is how we got someone like AoC and Omar. The Right doesn't have such a stranglehold over the culture like the Left does on the internet either. The Progressives freely use identity politics to stifle ad revenue for the Right, and promote cancel culture as well by throwing around -isms at anyone who disagrees with them.

So if you take this all into consideration, you can see how the Liberal news exposure can easily influence and change people's minds far more than Conservatism. There is a lot of disinformation, and misrepresentation to sway how you think preached by these outlets. As the saying goes "Something said often enough, becomes the truth". I think people should realized they have been conditioned and radicalized, when they have inexplicable hatred for the other side. People should not be demonizing the other side so viciously. There is no morality in playing dirty, even if you disagree with the other side. Dialogue should always be open.

 

[ceecee]

Just because its on both sides, doesn't mean it happens equally on both sides. I feel that the bias from the Liberal media is far higher, due to how many Liberal news channels there are vs Conservative. On TV you got Fox, vs CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC etc. More people get their news from the TV, than online news sites (not including social media, because that isn't news).

Then its a fact that social media does censor/moderate Right leaning view points far more often (in the open exchange of ideas), and have openly admitted it. In spite of it not breaking any rules, yet ignore Extremism on the Left. (more so targeting specific topics in their censorship, or just blocking people they do not like). Then the "Loud minority" of the Progressives dominates the internet, which include many extremists. Democrats rarely denounce these extremists, and will even support them. It is how we got someone like AoC and Omar. The Right doesn't have such a stranglehold over the culture like the Left does on the internet either. The Progressives freely use identity politics to stifle ad revenue for the Right, and promote cancel culture as well by throwing around -isms at anyone who disagrees with them.

So if you take this all into consideration, you can see how the Liberal news exposure can easily influence and change people's minds far more than Conservatism. There is a lot of disinformation, and misrepresentation to sway how you think preached by these outlets. As the saying goes "Something said often enough, becomes the truth". I think people should realized they have been conditioned and radicalized, when they have inexplicable hatred for the other side. People should not be demonizing the other side so viciously. There is no morality in playing dirty, even if you disagree with the other side. Dialogue should always be open.

I see liberal, I see Democrats, I see liberal bias. I see the poor victims on the Right. You hate the left, anyone can see that but the conversation has been yanked that way because a large percentage of the American population likes the leftist policy. This is precisely what people on the left hoped for, everyone else thinks it's just Bernie. Come up with something palatable on the right if you want the majority to back it.

I see nothing critical of Trump, the GOP or conservatives. This is typical. I'm very critical of Trump and the GOP as well as Dems and libs, they deserve it.

Oh and it's not Fox, vs CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC. It's Fox/MSNBC/CNN/CBS/ABC. All exactly the same.

People should not be demonizing the other side so viciously. There is no morality in playing dirty, even if you disagree with the other side. Dialogue should always be open.

Open for what? For who? If you hate demonizing the other side so much, start with your boy Trump.

 

[Maou]

I see liberal, I see Democrats, I see liberal bias. I see the poor victims on the Right. You hate the left, anyone can see that but the conversation has been yanked that way because a large percentage of the American population likes the leftist policy. This is precisely what people on the left hoped for, everyone else thinks it's just Bernie. Come up with something palatable on the right if you want the majority to back it.

I see nothing critical of Trump, the GOP or conservatives. This is typical. I'm very critical of Trump and the GOP as well as Dems and libs, they deserve it.

Oh and it's not Fox, vs CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC. It's Fox/MSNBC/CNN/CBS/ABC. All exactly the same.



Open for what? For who? If you hate demonizing the other side so much, start with your boy Trump.

I do not hate the Left, if I did. I wouldn't be friends with more Liberals and Democrats, than I am Conservatives. In fact, none of the other right leaning folk on this site even talk to me outside a like (Except Deprecator of course, but we disagree on many things). Unless you count Highlander, but we do not get along that well.

And no, a Large part of the population does not like Liberal policy. That is a misconception. There is far more moderates and or Republican registered people in the United states, and less and less are identifying as Liberal.

You think Biden has a chance?

People are more likely to trust Fox, because its not obvious misinformation. But younger Republicans are more known to get their news online, rather than the TV, and call out Fox on their biases. Most all Republicans are far more likely to distrust Fox, than Democrats are to distrust CNN.

1. Democrats report much higher levels of trust in a number of news sources than Republicans | Pew Research Center

This article also shows just how many more Left leaning news sites there are, vs Right leaning ones. I could agree that Fox is the "Controlled opposition", as I do believe in the Plutocracy.

As for Trump, he doesn't demonize. He just pokes fun at people, and almost always in response to those poking fun at him. Why don't they stop calling him Orange Cheeto or Literally Hitler? It is pretty petty of them. I 100% guaranteed that if they stopped that stupid shit, Trump would stop too. It takes two to tango, and I think Trump is fair and can easily move on. Any actual "demonization" that happens, is due to misrepresentations and falsehoods portrayed by the media to make him look bad. Like the whole "Mexicans are rapists" etc, was entirely taken out of context when he was talking about MS-13. Respect is earned, not given. The media disrespects him constantly, and it is why he treats them like shit.

Open for dialogue, as in, being able to talk about your opinions and beliefs with respect and not being met with spite, anger, and ad hominems. I seriously question people's sanity whey they are incapable of seeing any value in the opposing sides, or even considering compromise. It seems all black and white in their heads, and that is no way to be happy with anything. I think if you ask enough questions, and break down exactly why someone says something is good or bad to its very core. You will find yourself in far more common ground than you thought.

 

[Red Memories]

I know this has been mentioned as a cultural problem in recent years in articles, analyses, etc, but the devaluing of and even sneering/scorn of established journals, of experts, of actual people with firsthand experience, is quite tied to this.

Replace that with every armchair person who conflates their Opinion and Speculation as just as valid as the words coming from actual experts and people educated in these fields, or with years of experience, and it's a real problem.

Our current culture revolves around this notion - that each and every one of is important, worth listening to, should be given attention and 'heard', and whose 'voice' should be given as much weight as the voice of someone who is educated in said subject, and, well, enter the shit show of today.

You have people who consider people who give *opinions* on talk shows to actually be giving 'truth'. No, it's an opinion.

So people who are in fact uninformed, who did not spend 8+ years of post-college grad work or fellowships, can use such fluffy phrases as 'fake news', or emotional techniques such as not answering any questions or challenges at all and citing 'bias' from the other as a legitimate reason to not answer any questions, you have people who shamelessly state they are the most rational person here, they are the most x, y, z, and so on.... all psychological deflection and mumbo jumbo. And of course these sorts of inane responses and tactics are used by Trump as well - so it's easy to see how supporters will further support someone who validates their own tendencies. [As if anyone who actually held X trait would boast of it. Boasting is a sure sign of it not being true.]

Or your run of the mill folks who are just rolling with the times... If people are inundated with tens of millions of people trying to be 'heard' and wanting their videos, or memes, or any nonsense, to go viral, and if culturally people are simultaneously instructed to tiptoe around anyone voicing an opinion because 'everyone has a right to be heard', well, that's why we're here. Until culturally we are dialed back again to 'Nope, all of you fools are not worth my time and do not deserve an equal amount of bandwidth as these experts over here', we're going to be rolling around in this crap for a while.

The absolute truest statement in this thread. So many armchair journalists practically use twitter as a source and I miss the days journalism was in fact objective, unbiasly reporting facts, and not telling me morally what to think 24/7. If I wanted nothing but opinion pieces I'd go to that column. Now it takes effort just to find a credible place.

 

[Deprecator]

People have to admit there is a severe biased in reporting when it comes to the main news networks.

My impression is that liberals get upset with Fox news for the "biased" manner in which information is presented, regardless of how factually accurate the information itself might be. In contrast conservatives get upset with liberal media for presenting inaccurate/ speculative information, no matter how sugar-coated the presentation itself might be.

The most striking example would be the Russian collusion hoax that left-wing media parroted for weeks on end. Indeed, I literally lost count of the number of times liberal networks claimed to that the "walls were closing in", or that it was "the beginning of the end", or that they had some sort of "bombshell report." Of course now their new narrative is that because of his negligence and stupidity, the country must be shut down for months to ensure an economic disaster entirely attributable to the contemptible ineptitude of the Big Bad Orange Man. Of course such a narrative is opined by a minority, as most Americans believe that Trump has generally led well in this struggle against the coronavirus, even despite his early optimism.

All things considering I daresay it's become a rather predictable and repetitive pattern. First it was Trump couldn't win, then it was all this talk about obstruction and how he only won because he had colluded with the Russians, then Ukraine came up somehow and it was literally so nonsensical that democrats couldn't convince a single House republican of its merit, and now of course they've decided it's time to hammer President Trump for his somewhat cavalier opening reflections on the coronavirus. Which to be fair I'm 100% okay with anyone doing.... so long as they also extend equal criticism to the CDC.

"All of the pandemic planning we have done for influenza is a foundation for our response to this virus. Because of the preparation, the CDC remains vocal that Americans do not have to fear exposure."

— Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, at a press briefing.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

"All of the pandemic planning we have done for influenza is a foundation for our response to this virus. Because of the preparation, the CDC remains vocal that Americans do not have to fear exposure."

— Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, at a press briefing.

When I googled this quote, I could not find it.

Judging by her Wikipedia article, on the off chance that she did say such a thing, it is out of context.

Wow, is the personality cult really so strong that you are willing to spread information that kills your countrymen if you think it helps your narrative? Actually, given that I couldn't find this quote anywhere, even on some site that seems like complete bullshit, the conclusion seems even worse than that. You made the information up whole cloth, it would seem. You should have a very good defense for doing that, or I will report you. It's rather indefensible and in a context that is unignorable, even for someone like me who found the Mueller investigation as tedious and worthless as fuck.

This is why we have a thread on this topic.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

There is a policy against giving out medical disinformation on this forum; given the seriousness of this situation, it is no laughing matter.