HELP ME. (male INTJ/female ENFP, romantic)

[grey_beard]

Totally agree. All too often I hear the sound of screeching tires as I wave my hand wildly in front of my face to rapidly disperse the dust emerging to find INTJ in the lead! It's either passenger seat, sidecare, or bleachers with pom poms for this gal. (Sure, I'll be the Bonnie to this Clyde). Try as I might, my Ti needs to get the bird for holding me back. The desire is intensely sardonic because my roll-a-dex turns a bit slower. Excruciating! But I whittle circles around INTJ's when I get on my feels! And in social situations, WATCH OUT! This girl got this! I. Know. Everyone. Or will by the end of the night.

Postulation: What if there isn't pragmatic empirical data? Like with relational interaction. (Fibonacci sequence can't help ya here) How do you decipher/acquire data?

That 's where Ni comes in. For relational interaction, Ni is only good for mature, experienced INTJs, otherwise, it leads them astray, causing them to *think* they know all about what's going on,
when they really don't. And that makes them world-class insufferable assh*les.

As I have written earlier on TypC (warning: Wall-O'Text [TM] imminent):

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ctions/67695-ni-post2234762.html?#post2234762

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

thanks, grey_beard. points #3 and #4 in your Wall-O'Text(TM) are precisely what i was trying to convey with what i meant with pattern recognition and such but, of course, failing to do eloquently.

 

[Betty Blue]

if you had a team of INTXs (and possibly ISTXs) on a quizzo team, game over- you know who won already.

i think the trivia fascination moreso has to do with building our library- "oh, this type of african plant can dissolve human flesh, filed away. (i never know when i'll be stuck in an african jungle.)"

Well lol until you realise that the NF's did infact know a whole heap more than you bargained for and you just made the crucial arrogant mistake of giving them double points for every question they now get right.... (A La Noel & Russell Big Fat Quizz of the year).

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

well, there'd be more random information from the INT/ISTs. sure, NFs would be formidable but i don't think they can compete with that combined encyclopedic knowledge. however, one bat of an eyelash from an ENFP and the mediator (judge? emcee? how DO they refer to themselves?) would be a quivering mess.

meanwhile, our ISTP has gone rogue, has ninja'd in, and is switching the score sheet.

 

[Coriolis]

So you mean you broke up with me because you didn't feel respected?

The notion of breaking up presumes that there was a relationship to begin with.

Ok. Noted. Maybe that's just my INTJ. He is big-picture too, but can tend to focus on minutia sometimes. Sharing that N is the reason why we "click"! I love that feeling that I can talk about anything and everything with other NT's.

Yes, INTJs can indeed focus on details sometimes. The operative word is "sometimes". It is neither our default nor our preferred mode, but rather something we do when necessary to accomplish something. I for one can start to feel stressed out and almost crazy when I have to focus on details too much/too long. I have also read that one element of unhealthy INTJ behavior is preoccupation with small details, at the expense of the greater picture (Se run amok).

for us (at least for me), minutiae is VERY important- if it relates to the "plan" we have for the goal. they're points of data. all irrelevant data can be discarded, all relevant data must be factored in. know how we have our feedback loop? that's specifically what happens when we need those fine points, those details for our analysis and planning (and can't get them- either because they're unavailable to us/we don't have access to them, or they don't exist).

This is a good explanation of our relationship with details. Ni is very good at filling in the blanks, but if there is one that is just too big, or if we want to cross-check our decisions thoroughly with real-world data, we can be obsessive about tracking down those missing pieces.

As for trivia, sometimes it is hard to remember important details, but it is amazing how many useless, irrelevant details I seem to collect completely unwittingly.

Yes, I'm starting to realize that ALL things are done with purpose and I need to pay attention.

This point cannot be overemphasized when dealing with INTJs. To get back to details, we will plan out the smallest detail of things that are important to us, so nothing is left to chance.

How to you decipher between relevant and irrelevant data? Are there clues/cues that you specifically look for?

CO-in-Gnito's explanation is how I see it as well. I would say the relevant pieces just "fit", while the irrelevant ones don't, much like the pieces in a jigsaw puzzle. It eventually becomes apparent if someone has tossed a handful of extraneous pieces into the box. Te-based vetting can take care of some of them, too.

Postulation: What if there isn't pragmatic empirical data? Like with relational interaction. (Fibonacci sequence can't help ya here) How do you decipher/acquire data?

What do you mean by this? Dealing with people? Depends on the people, and the situation. If there is an established or familar pattern, that can be followed. This extends to new situations of a similar kind, e.g. first time at a professional conference. It is still a professional activity, and one's experiences of seminars, trade shows, industry tours, and networking luncheons should be enough to navigate it. Now something with no or minimal precedent, as CO-in-Gnito writes, this will be a problem. I will do some research on the event ahead of time to try to gather some of those data. Once there, I will also tend to lurk on the sidelines and watch to gather more. If someone is willing to guide me into it, I will follow, but only if I consider them trustworthy and more adept than myself in the situation.

well, there'd be more random information from the INT/ISTs. sure, NFs would be formidable but i don't think they can compete with that combined encyclopedic knowledge. however, one bat of an eyelash from an ENFP and the mediator (judge? emcee? how DO they refer to themselves?) would be a quivering mess

.
Here we are back to those stereotypes again, unless you think a male batting his eyelashes would be just as effective (and why not?) even if the emcee is also a guy.

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

Here we are back to those stereotypes again, unless you think a male batting his eyelashes would be just as effective (and why not?) even if the emcee is also a guy.

oh, it was all in jest. though with an ENFP's charm, even if it was a straight emcee and a male ENFP, batting the eyelashes probably would still work.

 

[Kheledon]

-male (in heteronormative romantic relationships in the US, we are largely subservient to the female's desire, or lack thereof, of a relationship with us)

It appears to me that for our species, and particularly in Western societies, women are the sexual selectors (at least in heteronormative sexual relationships).

"When a woman chooses a mate, we call that a relationship. When a man chooses a mate, we call that rape."

The former might get you what most of us want out of life--love, affection, children, peace, security, companionship, and intimacy. The latter should get you prison time. It is obvious to me that this dynamic favors women.

Note that the italicized aphorism above is copyrighted by me. You are free to use it, but, if you do, please give me credit (or discredit) depending upon your particular, personal response to it.

all in all, i think men have it a lot more rough than women perceive us to

Agreed. I still think it unfair that women get paid less than men do for doing the exact same job. I also think that it's unfair that women do most of the world's work (up to 70% according to some estimates I have seen). That said, nearly every social ill you can imagine affects men more than women. Consider the following list:

Which sex is more likely to die at a younger age?
Which sex is more likely to be homeless?
Which sex is more likely to be injured on the job?
Which sex is more likely to be arrested?
Which sex is more likely to go to prison (by a 9:1 ratio, roughly)?
Which sex is more likely to be raped (and you must include prison rapes to fully grasp the situation)?
Which sex is more likely to be injured (physically and/or mentally) in military combat?
Which sex is more likely to be injured (physically and/or mentally) in physical confrontations with civilians?
Which sex is more likely to be denied (or fail to qualify for) government benefits due to their genital plumbing?
Which sex is more likely to be disbelieved by law enforcement personnel?
Which sex is more likely to have a serious substance-abuse problem?
Which sex is more likely to be committed to a mental institution?
Which sex is more likely to fail to find a mate and, instead, live in solitude?
Which sex is more likely to lose a custody fight over children?
Which sex is more likely to have to pay child support?
Which sex is more likely to have to pay alimony or spousal support following a divorce?
Finally, and most importantly, which sex can never be 100% sure that "their" children are actually theirs? Paternity equals uncertainty.

I don't begrudge women the tremendous advances that they have made over the past hundred years, but they're wrong if they think that they are at a major cultural or social disadvantage in Western societies. My experience has been, and the evidence seems to show, that it's harder to be a man.

 

[Coriolis]

I don't begrudge women the tremendous advances that they have made over the past hundred years, but they're wrong if they think that they are at a major cultural or social disadvantage in Western societies. My experience has been, and the evidence seems to show, that it's harder to be a man.

Perhaps, but then it is harder to be an adult than a child.

Mod note:

This is a worthwhile topic, but rightfully belongs elsewhere. If there is interest in pursuing it, I can split the thread, or move the posts to an existing related thread.

 

[Hapyniss]

Hiya all. I've taken a day off to think because INTJ guy has me vexxed a bit here.
Ok Solutionists, I have problems. My feelings are starting to develop for INTJ guy and it's still really early on. So naturally, I'm feeling scared.

I'm in the beginning stages of dating an INTJ. (2months) He introduced me to MBTI and instantly loved the fact that I'm an ENFP. Aparently he's been waiting to meet one and I'm the first. He encouraged me to study up on INTJ's in general and he's self admittedly "well developed INTJ with only a little relationship experience". So, I've studied up, chatted here, gotten curious, asked loads of questions.

Here's questions: Outside of making grandiose assumptions, what can I infer he understands about ENFP and the experience that I'm having with him? How/What would he have studied/noted if that's the type he's most interested in dating?

So far, most of the advice I get is about (seemingly) how to cater to the INTJ so that he feels comfortable, loved, cared for, space, quality time, etc. etc. Before I jump into a future with him, I do want to ensure that my needs will be important and treated as such too. At this point, I feel a genuine interest from him and I know we like each other, but I'm also equally concerned about his capability to function in a relationship knowing he's without much experience. And sometimes, he's just plain awkward!!!!!(I would put more exclamation points if it wouldn't be annoying to INTJ's

For instance, the first kiss was amazing. The kind of feeling that I've made fun of other woman for having - you know - weak in the knees, toe curling, goose bumps, kiss . He even said "You're an exceptionally good kisser" and he came in for 2 more kisses (each one increasing in intensity/passion) before we finally said good night. However, the past 2 attempts at kissing were practically epic fails! Like little peck kisses after he spent 15 minutes shifting his weight back and forth like at an 8th grade dance. Wha....? What happened to amazeballs kisser dude? Where'd he go? Bring him back! - WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?

I think I'd be inclined to believe he's losing interest if he didn't, on the same date, ask me to meet his family and make multiple futuristic plans together. He also said that the conversation was so interesting he felt like we were the only 2 people in the restaurant and he lost track of time. (and proceeded awkwardly getting up because he had to get up early for work - like almost knocked his chair over)

Aren't these signs of INTJ interest? Confuscious Maximus.

Question: (knowing this will be different for each INTJ) How much awareness does an INTJ have of the other persons experience in the relationship?

Will someone please help me decipher some of this awkward behavior? What does it all mean Basil?

 

[Coriolis]

Well, I am not Basil, and I have never dated an ENFP, but I will venture a reply nonetheless.

Executive Summary: Don't make assumptions, but do ask him directly about the things you mention below.

Here's questions: Outside of making grandiose assumptions, what can I infer he understands about ENFP and the experience that I'm having with him? How/What would he have studied/noted if that's the type he's most interested in dating?

If he has been reading up on MBTI, assume he has read a handful of mainstream ENFP type descriptions, and likely a handful of descriptions of other types for comparison. He might have perused forums like this one to see what ENFPs have to say for themselves, about relationships and anything else he thinks is important. But if you want to be sure, ask him. Tell him you appreciate his interest in MBTI, and would like to know what caught his attention about ENFPs. What he likes about them in theory, what the theory tells him might be challenges for the two of you together, and how he thinks you should implement the theory in practice. I really think he would go for such a line of questioning. I certainly would. (Actually, something not too far removed led to me and my INTP getting engaged.)

So far, most of the advice I get is about (seemingly) how to cater to the INTJ so that he feels comfortable, loved, cared for, space, quality time, etc. etc. Before I jump into a future with him, I do want to ensure that my needs will be important and treated as such too. At this point, I feel a genuine interest from him and I know we like each other, but I'm also equally concerned about his capability to function in a relationship knowing he's without much experience. And sometimes, he's just plain awkward!!!!!(I would put more exclamation points if it wouldn't be outrageously more annoying to INTJ's than it already is

Forget the awkward part. It is harmless really, and he will eventually improve there, especially if he has an ENFP in his life. You are right to be concerned about your needs being met, but if this INTJ cares about you enough to invest in a relationship, he will, too. If it appears your needs are not being met, it is not disinterest or selfishness on his part, but rather ignorance. For this reason, you need to be very explicit in letting him know what you want, what bothers you, what is important to you, etc. He will probably not pick up on these things from subtle hints or even watching what you do. Of course you will both need to compromise, as in any relationship, but he can't take into account and act on what he doesn't know. This cannot be overemphasized.

What happened to amazeballs kisser dude? Where'd he go? Bring him back! - WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?

Can't help you there - sorry.

I think I'd be inclined to believe he's losing interest if he didn't, on the same date, ask me to meet his family and make multiple futuristic plans together. He also said that the conversation was so interesting he felt like we were the only 2 people in the restaurant and he lost track of time. (and proceeded awkwardly getting up because he had to get up early for work - like almost knocked his chair over)

Aren't these signs of INTJ interest? Confuscious Maximus.

Yes, definitely. The fact that he lost track of time spending it with you at the possible expense of his work schedule says (1) that he really enjoys your company, (2) he is willing to focus on you to the exclusion of all other things, and (3) you are therefore a very high priority in his life. INTJs won't do a 10th of this socially if they don't really care about someone.

Question: (knowing this will be different for each INTJ) How much awareness does an INTJ have of the other persons experience in the relationship?

This is strongly dependent on how much the other person tells them. I had a much better sense of how much experience my romantic partners had than the exact nature of those experiences, but then asking about exes just never seemed the thing to do. Until I found "the right one", and I interrogated away.

 

[Hapyniss]

Well, I am not Basil, and I have never dated an ENFP, but I will venture a reply nonetheless.

Executive Summary: Don't make assumptions, but do ask him directly about the things you mention below.

If he has been reading up on MBTI, assume he has read a handful of mainstream ENFP type descriptions, and likely a handful of descriptions of other types for comparison. He might have perused forums like this one to see what ENFPs have to say for themselves, about relationships and anything else he thinks is important. But if you want to be sure, ask him. Tell him you appreciate his interest in MBTI, and would like to know what caught his attention about ENFPs. What he likes about them in theory, what the theory tells him might be challenges for the two of you together, and how he thinks you should implement the theory in practice. I really think he would go for such a line of questioning. I certainly would. (Actually, something not too far removed led to me and my INTP getting engaged.)

Well that's at the very least a conversation starter for the next date night. I'll keep ya posted about his take on why he introduced me to MBTI in the first place. I am wondering if he had a previous notion that I was ENFP in the first place. He's very good at typing individuals. It's uncanny.

Forget the awkward part. It is harmless really, and he will eventually improve there, especially if he has an ENFP in his life. You are right to be concerned about your needs being met, but if this INTJ cares about you enough to invest in a relationship, he will, too. If it appears your needs are not being met, it is not disinterest or selfishness on his part, but rather ignorance. For this reason, you need to be very explicit in letting him know what you want, what bothers you, what is important to you, etc. He will probably not pick up on these things from subtle hints or even watching what you do. Of course you will both need to compromise, as in any relationship, but he can't take into account and act on what he doesn't know. This cannot be overemphasized.

Could you expound....(see bold) What about my being an ENFP helps him to improve the awkwardness?
I do believe he cares enough, he's already shown that he does by making a greater effort to keep me in the communication loop. He's going through a rough time right now with some stacked set of events (stresser at work, physical illness, death of family friend) all within 1 months time. I haven't spoken with him in about 1 week (I was the only person he spoke to the day after the funeral) or seen him in about 2. Not sure when he'll be ready to leave his cave for socialization or how open he will be once we do get together.

Yes, definitely. The fact that he lost track of time spending it with you at the possible expense of his work schedule says (1) that he really enjoys your company, (2) he is willing to focus on you to the exclusion of all other things, and (3) you are therefore a very high priority in his life. INTJs won't do a 10th of this socially if they don't really care about someone.

I was thinking so but some of this is rather counter-intuitive. He's different from anyone I've ever dated.

This is strongly dependent on how much the other person tells them. I had a much better sense of how much experience my romantic partners had than the exact nature of those experiences, but then asking about exes just never seemed the thing to do. Until I found "the right one", and I interrogated away.

Interesting that you bring this up. In the beginning, and sometimes on occasion, he speaks about his past experiences with his exes and events that stuck in his mind. I wasn't sure how to think about this because social convention dictates this to be off-putting behavior with a new love interest. Which, in turn, led me to believe that I wasn't a love interest. That is, until the kiss/es. That is, until the kisses became peck kisses and his demeanor became awkward around me. Some of this behavior does strike me as rather immature.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Interesting that you bring this up. In the beginning, and sometimes on occasion, he speaks about his past experiences with his exes and events that stuck in his mind. I wasn't sure how to think about this because social convention dictates this to be off-putting behavior with a new love interest. Which, in turn, led me to believe that I wasn't a love interest. That is, until the kiss/es. That is, until the kisses became peck kisses and his demeanor became awkward around me. Some of this behavior does strike me as rather immature.

Don't worry, I have said planty of such detials to the girls I have liked. (and many got confused because this).
I personally just see this just as a form of openess and that means that I like you.

 

[Poki]

Don't worry, I have said planty of such detials to the girls I have liked. (and many got confused because this).
I personally just see this just as a form of openess and that means that I like you.

Yeah, I would have to agree with you on this. I Listen to what is said and how they react. This will tell more then just the fact that he talks about exes. We all talk about our past and stuff. I bring up my ex alot, doesn't mean anything. I have spent time with her, there was good and there was bad. But everyone that knows and listens can tell the bad out weight the good. Feelings are gone and I have resolved everything internally. I have been told this is obvious by what I say and how I speak about her.

I woud have to tell an ENFP that society does not define a person, neither does what your emotions say. Your emotions define yourself, as well as society defines averages across a group, not averages across a person. Learn who he is by who he is, not who others say unless those others know him more personally and closely.

 

[Hapyniss]

Don't worry, I have said planty of such detials to the girls I have liked. (and many got confused because this).
I personally just see this just as a form of openess and that means that I like you.

I now understand this, but initially, it was a stark difference from the norm.

 

[Hapyniss]

Yeah, I would have to agree with you on this. I Listen to what is said and how they react. This will tell more then just the fact that he talks about exes. We all talk about our past and stuff. I bring up my ex alot, doesn't mean anything. I have spent time with her, there was good and there was bad. But everyone that knows and listens can tell the bad out weight the good. Feelings are gone and I have resolved everything internally. I have been told this is obvious by what I say and how I speak about her.

I woud have to tell an ENFP that society does not define a person, neither does what your emotions say. Your emotions define yourself, as well as society defines averages across a group, not averages across a person. Learn who he is by who he is, not who others say unless those others know him more personally and closely.

I agree and have always known and understood this. However, it's very easy to become desensitized to how much of this conventional thinking infiltrates my everyday thinking and choices; because I've not had anyone challenging that in the way he does, my underdeveloped Ti really went with the flow. He's deliberate about his intention to deviate from ALL social norms, unless he's come to realize the benefits of such norms (i.e. small talk as an opener to further conversation). Since meeting and spending time with him, I feel that part of my Ti being worked every time we're together. It's fascinating how much I've awakened in a short time.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I now understand this, but initially, it was a stark difference from the norm.

To be honest I never understood what is so problematic about this ?
I mean if you constantly talk about this then it is somewhat stupid/weird but a comment from time to time should not be a problem.

 

[Hapyniss]

To be honest I never understood what is so problematic about this ?
I mean if you constantly talk about this then it is somewhat stupid/weird but a comment from time to time should not be a problem.

Well. After some analysis, the realization came that it has to do with emotional attachments and insecurity. Initially, it became obvious that I felt threatened, on some level. It's egocentric really; the expectation that someone I'm interested in shouldn't have been interested in or tried to make a relationship work with anyone else. Silly. Silly ENFPness. Lol. Since, it's been easier after coming to terms with that he isn't talking from a current emotional attachment to her, but a fact review perspective. And, I learned to put myself in check, particularly my ego.

Empirically and socially, "friends" use this process to suss out what's going on/wrong with their relationships. This is the social convention that is acceptable discussion to work an extroverted process and gain insight from others to determine how to "feel" about something that is happening. So when it first discussed, the impression was that he was looking to me for advice about how to work out his relationship with another woman while on a date with me. Imagine that! I'm glad we decided to talk that through and learn each other better.

 

[Coriolis]

Could you expound....(see bold) What about my being an ENFP helps him to improve the awkwardness?

ENFPs seem to be able to encourage INTJs to try new things, to get out of their comfort zone and push the envelope socially and experientially. This gives him more opportunities to practice the things he is awkward at, and to develop more proficiency and comfort with them. ENFPs are also likely to be able to point out to an INTJ in a kindly and acceptable manner when they might want to reconsider their manner or habits. I don't think we take such criticism equally well from most other types. I know my INTP and I are quite content to be homebodies together, so neither of us can perform at least the first function for the other. We are more likely to reinforce whatever our social shortcomings are than to help each other overcome them.

Interesting that you bring this up. In the beginning, and sometimes on occasion, he speaks about his past experiences with his exes and events that stuck in his mind. I wasn't sure how to think about this because social convention dictates this to be off-putting behavior with a new love interest. Which, in turn, led me to believe that I wasn't a love interest. That is, until the kiss/es. That is, until the kisses became peck kisses and his demeanor became awkward around me. Some of this behavior does strike me as rather immature.

You are reading too much into this, and the wrong meaning at that. I strongly discourage you from asking about his previous relationships (regardless of what his type is). If he brings them up himself, though, it is fair game to question gently, but stop if he changes the subject or becomes uncomfortable about it. Yes, this is a good chance to learn more about him, what he values in a relationship, what he learned about himself in previous relationships, etc. If he shares with you on this topic, you should also share with him on the same. That will show him you trust him as much as he trusts you.

 

[Poki]

I agree and have always known and understood this. However, it's very easy to become desensitized to how much of this conventional thinking infiltrates my everyday thinking and choices; because I've not had anyone challenging that in the way he does, my underdeveloped Ti really went with the flow. He's deliberate about his intention to deviate from ALL social norms, unless he's come to realize the benefits of such norms (i.e. small talk as an opener to further conversation). Since meeting and spending time with him, I feel that part of my Ti being worked every time we're together. It's fascinating how much I've awakened in a short time.

Why don't you challenge it yourself? That's the wonder that is ENFP, the ideas and things they go out and do and the different ways they go about things. They are usually a beat to thier own drum type of people. You should push towards being who you are, not who everyone else is. With ENFP the most social thinking I am aware of is the "why would they do this" because it turns into a "people" thing as opposed to a person because you don't know the person or you wouldn't be asking yourself. I don't generally see an ENFP just going with social convention or the crowd more as I see them off doing their own thing.

 

[Hapyniss]

Why don't you challenge it yourself? That's the wonder that is ENFP, the ideas and things they go out and do and the different ways they go about things. They are usually a beat to thier own drum type of people. You should push towards being who you are, not who everyone else is. With ENFP the most social thinking I am aware of is the "why would they do this" because it turns into a "people" thing as opposed to a person because you don't know the person or you wouldn't be asking yourself. I don't generally see an ENFP just going with social convention or the crowd more as I see them off doing their own thing.

Well, I am. But without the impetus of higher consciousness/shock value, what awakens a person really? I have been myself, quirky, reverent of nothing, and beat the shit out of that drum. But, I've hurt many people in that wake. Isolated myself in the process. As I've gotten older, matured, and am setting an example for my children, I've found I'm not particularly happy/proud in some of my original approaches to challenging norms. It can also be said, that is the fundamental stimuli in most ENFP selfishness, which is often complained about with strict regard to relationships, some of which are with INTJ's, and hurt has followed. (Read the numerous threads to such)

How can I hold my head up high having delved so much irrevocable destruction?

So the pendulum swings. And to the other extreme I went. (Yes, losing myself in the process) However, being broken and lost has been transformative. Order and balance are the laws of the universe, so it swings back, only now...I'm empowered to influence how far and with what intensity. I now know of my own strengths, and my own weaknesses. Neither to be taken lightly. The true goddess I am capable of is turning my cheek to the sun and, like a prism, refracting an incredibly full spectrum nurturing a colorful life. I only hope that can exude into the life of others as a true Inspiration...just like an evolved ENFP should; as the embodiment of the ENFP stereotype represents!