Logic, ethics, sensing, intuition - of others, versus of yourself. Model B elements

[Retmeishka]

I just had an understanding today of what the 'global' versus 'local' means. Sometimes if you just word things differently, it becomes understandable. This is an oversimplified definition of these information elements - they actually have many different aspects to them, and I have not yet gathered all of the definitions into one place. Again, this is *oversimplified* to make it understandable. Many of the nuances are missing.

The one definition that I am focusing on here is: of others, versus of yourself. I am only beginning to understand this insight, so it is a work in progress. I am still trying to define introverted and extraverted sensing in ways that sensors would agree with and recognize, in their own words. My descriptions of all of my own weak functions are going to be lame sounding. I am most interested in trying to describe all the various forms of sensing.

Minus = of others ("global")
Plus = of yourself ("local")

-Fe = feelings of others. Outwardly expressed emotions of other people, individuals or groups of people. (Note, these people are also expressing their own feelings too, which is why I say this definition is oversimplified - I haven't explained it all yet.)

+Fe = feelings of yourself. Your own feelings from moment to moment, expressed outwardly.

-Fi = relationships of others, inward feelings of others. (I'm not opposed to it myself, but, I read an article where someone explained why they were opposed to gay marriage. Gay marriage = the relationships of others. They said that the children adopted by those families would have benefited by having parents of both genders. Talking about children's relationships with their parents = the relationships of others.)

+Fi = relationships of your own, inner feelings of your own (I know this person, his/her name is xyz, I have a relationship with them.)

-Te = the work processes of others. You can look at a corporation and see the work being done by everyone. Other people's work might be going well or it might be going badly. You can learn about and study processes as an abstraction: how this work process is done, what is this technique, algorithm, method, that others are doing. (note, by using the word 'process,' I might be blending this with Ni.) This is about 'how it's done.' How others do it, how everyone does it, how we all are doing it. Also, the logic of how objects interact with other objects. Like, a chemical mixes with another chemical and produces a third chemical. Again, these people are all still doing their own work too, which I am not sure how to explain.

+Te = my own work. I am constantly doing something, making stuff happen. I pushed the button and the computer did something. Also, another nearby person might be trying to make something work, and I can see what they're doing and what they have to do to make it work. I think the definition of 'local' doesn't always mean yourself, it can also mean some physical person near you that you can see.

-Ti = the logic of others. I'm not sure how to define this yet. I don't know why, but I'm drawing a blank on this, lol. The measurements and theories of others? The laws and principles of others? I dunno. I actually ought to go and collect all of the definitions I have read of all these information elements instead of trying to write it myself. Maybe that's my -Ti right there. Definitions written by others?

+Ti = my own logic. Again, not sure on this. I associate +Ti with making measurements and getting specific numbers, which is endless and infinite. You can measure exactly how tall the tree is, you can measure the distance around the tree and get an exact number for that, you can measure the diameter of the tree, you can measure every detail of the tree and get infinity numbers, and this will never end. A business person or CEO also does this, getting statistics on everything, every detail of their business, and it is impossible to run out of things to measure.

-Se = objects others see. This one is particularly interesting. I had a new insight on this. -Se is an awareness of the objects that other people can see. For instance, you're playing football, people are running all around, and one person looks at another person, and passes them the ball. You noticed that Person A was able to see Person B. You might say, 'She can see him. He can't see her. He didn't catch the ball.' This sense also enables you to sneak without being seen. You know that some other person can't see you. -Se = What others see. What everyone sees, what a group sees. I'm still working on this definition. -Se = the forces others make. I watched a video about martial arts. The guy was adapting to the forces made by the other, the other person's attacks, going with their flow. Another video talked about going in harmony with nature, the forces of nature, forces outside yourself. (*Edit, this might be -Te. +Te is, for example, one object striking another, or in a fight, one person punching another, so -Te might be the awareness of everyone else's 'strikes,' and moving yourself out of the way of them, I'm not sure of any of this yet. *)

+Se = objects I see. I see this thing right here in front of me. I talk about this or that object in the room, I point to it, I can go pick it up or touch it. I'm also able to sneak, but I feel sort of anxious and uncertain about it, like I'm not quite as strong at sneaking as I ought to be, in order to feel totally confident about it, and that's why I suspect that 'sneaking' and 'not being seen by others' is part of my 7th function, 3 dimensional instead of 4 dimensional. I'm still working on describing all the differences between +Se and -Se. +Se = the force that I myself make.

-Si = internal sensations of others. My cat Max is outside. I know that he's cold out there. I still don't completely understand this definition yet. I tend to talk about the lifestyles of everyone in society, so 'lifestyle' might also be part of Si. I'm not sure yet. It's kind of like 'How everyone lives.' How other people live.

+Si = internal sensations of myself, or of nearby people, specific people. How I live, as an individual.

-Ne = potentials of others. Groups of people, anyone, anonymous people, people as an abstraction. Does it also mean 'possibilities elsewhere?' I don't know how to define this since it's not a strong function for me and I've been preoccupied with defining more and more nuances of the sensing definitions.

+Ne = potential of myself, my own ideas which are new, things that I have generated, new ways of seeing things that I created by myself, or that some specific other person created.

-Ni = others' way of seeing things, others' interpretations and explanations. What this means to others, what this means to everyone.

+Ni = my own way of seeing things, my own meanings and interpretations. Some individual person and yourself have a specific meaning attached to something.

**************************
Again, this is very oversimplified, I can't say that enough. There are many different aspects of these functions that I did not mention here and have not yet collected all in one place. It was just the insight I had about 'of others, versus of yourself.' The words 'global' and 'local' don't really mean anything to me - they are too abstract. But if I translate it to plain language and say 'of others' and 'of myself,' all of a sudden, boom, I understand what they're talking about now.

 

[Retmeishka]

Do the images always come out all teeny like that? I thought sometimes they could be full size. Testing...

 

[Retmeishka]

Dang, well, I wanted the chart to be readable right there on the screen, but you have to click on it, and open it in a separate tab or window. I'll work on this later, I've used up all my energy right now. All of this needs a lot of work.

 

[Opal]

Dang, well, I wanted the chart to be readable right there on the screen, but you have to click on it, and open it in a separate tab or window. I'll work on this later, I've used up all my energy right now. All of this needs a lot of work.

If you upload the chart to a site like Imgur, you should be able to enclose the URL in

 

[Retmeishka]

- - - Updated - - -

If you upload the chart to a site like Imgur, you should be able to enclose the URL in

 

[Retmeishka]

Okay, so for example. I'm walking down the sidewalk. I'm a SLI. My base function is -Si/+Se. As I walk, I see a mowed lawn (+Se, a specific object in a specific location). Then I see another, and another, and another. My mind subconsciously remembers that I have seen thousands upon thousands of these mowed lawns. 'Lawn mowing' is -Si, other people's lifestyles. It's a way of life, a thing people do. It's also some kind of Te, and I'm a little confused about this. I think maybe if I just *perceive* that they are doing this, that's my perceiving function, -Si? But I know my 8th function, the demonstrative function, will come in sooner or later (+Ti/-Te) and say, 'All this lawn mowing is pointless and wasteful. Think of all the gas people are using, and there's really no good reason why we should have to do this. All those people need to stop mowing their lawns. We need to get rid of these zoning laws.' I go back to -Si - all those people living that way, mowing the lawns, are experiencing pain and suffering. They have to waste time out of their busy lives, they don't get enough rest, they work and slave all day and then have to come home and do THIS or risk paying a huge fine for breaking the zoning laws. I don't want all these people to suffer (-Si), all this pain and inconvenience and lack of time for themselves, wasted money that they worked years to save up.

How much I use my 8th function probably depends on what mood I'm in, if I'm sick that day, using too much caffeine, or whatever. It is an unpleasant function to use. If I'm walking around in a bad mood thinking of angry counterarguments and reasons why our society shouldn't be living this way, and thinking about the global banking system (global systems are probably -Te), I'm not in a happy mood.

But if I am happy and safe, well rested, comfortable, and not sick or overcaffeinated, I will most likely be using my plus functions more than my minus functions. Seeing the specific objects in front of me in great detail (+Se, I think), also knowing what I want ('what I want' is supposedly part of Se, so +Se is knowing exactly what I myself want, and -Se is knowing what everyone wants, what a whole group of people wants/needs, sometimes what 'everyone else' needs while you aren't paying attention to your own needs), I might also use +Te to 'do something,' make something, craft something, like back in the days when I was doing knitting and crochet. Crafting is a pleasant activity that uses all of my valued plus functions. But I can also debate and argue about the American lifestyle and how much gas and time is being wasted by lawnmowing, and I'm still a SLI even when I do that.

That's why I like Model B - you have two aspects of a function in each box, both are valued, both are strong, both are 'in your quadra,' you can use them whenever you need to, and it reconciles socionics with other models, such as the Jungian Cognitive Functions, which claims that if I'm an ISTP, I use Ti as my base function (argh! I'm so glad I don't have to do the j/p switch anymore!!! I need to write a whole separate rant about the horrific massacre of sanity that is the j/p switch!). There are grains of truth when they say that I use a lot of Ti. Yes, I do, if I'm grouchy and using my demonstrative function, and also, if I'm using the -Ti in my creative function. There are two different ways that I could be using lots of Ti, yet I'm still a SLI/ISTP. Model B is great.

(*edit, I need to check and see again how the j/p switch is done. I think I messed it up when I said they would give me Ti as my base function. It's something like that.*)

 

[Retmeishka]

+Si - your own quirky, specific little lifestyle. There are infinity variations on every detail of this possible lifestyle. 'Well, if that's how you get your jollies...' Anything goes. You can't tell some other person how to live their lifestyle. Pleasure-focused, focused on good moods, sensual pleasures. Sexual activity and sexual preferences included.

-Se - how all the objects and spaces fit together, including the negative space. 'Negative space' is actually a term used in art, and -Se translates directly to 'negative space.' An SEI artist uses +Si/-Se when painting. This is actually something that I myself don't do very well, and lo and behold, it's only a 3-dimensional function for me, my 7th function. I can do it, but I'm not super-awesome at it, and I don't value it enough to always keep trying to do it and focusing on it. When I draw, I draw individual objects isolated from a background (+Se), not how they all fit together to make a pleasing arrangement (-Se/+Si) and create pleasant aesthetic feelings.

I knew an ESE at McDonald's who also was an artist, and his pictures were big and complicated, with things like octopus tentacles all twisting around together all over the image. The whole image was aesthetic and it all fit together (-Se), all the objects and their relationships. And it was meant to trigger pleasing and interesting sensations (+Si), although +Si is not merely about nothing but pleasant sensations, it's about all sensations in thorough detail.

'Inside Out' was a great movie to demonstrate the SEI personality type. Things like 'disgust' are included in +Si, all the possible sensations you can feel in the universe, in detail. 'Disgust' was the little green character in the movie. 'Joy' was the dominant character, an attempt to radiate positive moods and have positive experiences. This is not the same kind of joy radiated by an EIE personality type attempting to broadcast +Fe, which also focuses on positive emotions, but also on all emotions in detail as they are constantly changing. +Si is like 'a good mood' or 'feeling good.' EIEs do value that, though, so they are also trying to incorporate that too - it's written as -Se/+Si in Beta, but it's the same thing as the Alpha sensing.

 

[Retmeishka]

SEIs want to ignore your bad day and your bad mood. I have an SEI facebook friend who said this almost explicitly, kind of making fun of herself, and some of her friends agreed with her. She was describing herself as, kind of, a not nice person. She said, 'Someone will come to me and tell me all about the bad day they're having or the bad mood they're in, and I'll just sit there and say nothing, and then I'm like [random change of subject].'

I think this is the ignore function in the SEI, 7th function, for +Se/-Si. -Si talks about 'I'm having a bad day,' and I know because I talk that way constantly. I'll talk constantly about how I didn't get any sleep, I'm sick today, whatever, unpleasant sensing. The minus sign aspect does focus somewhat on 'unpleasant' data, although not entirely. If you try to tell all that stuff to an SEI or ESE, they'll listen to it for a little while, but they are not really thrilled about hearing it, and they will try to get you away from that subject. It is a disvalued way of talking, for them.

An ESE is often described as a self-sacrificing person who gives so much of themselves to other people that they have nothing left for themselves. This is because they are serving Group Wants/Needs (-Se) in their creative function. An ESE is (-Fe/+Fi), (+Si/-Se) ego. I encountered an ESE serving food at the community cafe at the church, a free meal soup kitchen thing, serving the needs of the community through a voluntary act of charity, directly handing out food to needy people in the community.

My ex-boyfriend, who I always suspected was an ILE, liked a whole lot of music that I didn't really like. He occasionally sends me links to songs when he's writing comments on my blog, and sometimes I think the music is just, meh, or okay. That's part of my evidence for the idea that he is my semi-dual the ILE. His music often comes from SEIs. In one of the songs he sent me, one lady, I forget who it was, was about to perform live before a crowd of people who were sitting outdoors, and before she started, she shouted out, 'Has everybody got enough food? Do you have enough blankets? Are you all getting enough water?' She was serving the group needs (-Se). She could only get a general impression from the overall expressions of the group and would not have known whether individual people were getting every little thing they needed, which they would have to do on their own (+Se, taking care of your own specific needs individually, self-reliance instead of group reliance). This singer seemed to be an SEI, with +Si/-Se as her base function. I knew immediately that she had a different way of talking than I myself do - I don't talk like that, it's unnatural for me. It's a very different kind of sensing than the one that I use (-Si/+Se).

 

[Retmeishka]

-Se/+Si, "group needs" and "your quirky little lifestyle," can also manifest in identifying the various animal species, where they live, what they eat, what they look like. All of the animals in this group have similar habits and needs, and similar lifestyles. Describing the details of this species' lifestyle = +Si. Grouping a bunch of animals together into one group with similar characteristics = -Se.

 

[Retmeishka]

Minus = dissociated, disconnected, disliked
Plus = associated, connected, liked


(-Si/+Se) are bundled together (Gamma SF, Delta ST)
-Si = not my lifestyle, that's not my thing (way of doing things), I don't live that way, that's not my cup of tea. Dissociated from my own discomfort/illness/pain. Aware of the discomfort of others who are dissociated (far away, or not myself, not me) - 'That person must be cold, going outside without a jacket on.', don't injure me
+Se = I like these things, I like this place, this is my home, I belong here, I belong in this group of people, I want this, connected with wants, connected with wanting particular objects or particular goals, I want this kind of food, I want a specific kind of food

(-Se/+Si) are bundled together (Alpha SF, Beta ST)
-Se = not my things (material objects), not my group, I'm not in this group, a bad group of people, a threatening group of people, ugly people, bad objects, words of disgust about an object (dirty, smelly, ugly), groups of people threatening your lifestyle, don't tell me what to do with my life, not what I want, disconnected from wants, not my goals, not the kind of food I like to eat, don't want this food
+Si = my lifestyle, I live this way, I relate to this way of living, that IS my cup of tea

I am SLI/ISTP. I use -Si/+Se. I remember I always associated with objects (+Se) all my life. I could not even throw toothbrushes away because I felt connected with them, I felt their pain and loneliness if they were thrown away (-Si, and seeking +Fi/-Fe in my 6th function, putting emotions onto nonliving things as though they are my friends, and being sad if I lose those 'friends'). I felt as though part of myself was in the object. Even the descriptions of the ISTP personality type say that 'the tool is like part of their body or an extension of themselves.' That would also be +Te, connected with tools.

I am also very, very specific about what kinds of food I want, and I have been constantly gathering this information over decades (+Se). I want one very specific precise thing from one very specific location. For example, people who talk about wanting to eat the organ meats of grass-fed, hormone free organic beef (which is something I want).

So a person using -Se will focus more frequently on talking about the BAD foods that you should avoid (you shouldn't eat this, it's bad). Someone using +Se will focus more frequently on talking about the GOOD foods you should seek (you need to find grass-fed organic hormone-free beef). Both of these refer to each other, because by talking about good foods, I am also saying you should avoid bad foods (avoid hormones, avoid grain-fed beef).

However, since I am -Si, instead of +Si, I won't spend quite as much time talking about the sensual pleasures of eating the food. I won't talk about all the detailed nuances of what it tastes like - maybe for a few moments. But other people who use +Si will focus for a long time talking about all the details of what a fine wine tasted like, how it smelled (I *think* this is +Si, but I need to make sure - it *could* be +Se).

I also need to distinguish between things that I have learned, which I know now at age 40, which a younger person might not know (for instance, artificial colors are bad and you should avoid them). A younger person might use +Se to seek after the brightly colored candies, not knowing that those chemicals are bad for your health in the long run (-Si) and not understanding cause and effect (logic), or not having the particular knowledge which they might gain later. If I were interviewing and brain-scanning a whole bunch of sensors I'd have a better ability to describe these things and distinguish between them all - I'm only going on vague things I remember having observed.

Anyway, even though I can't quite categorize everything into +Se/-Si or +Si/-Se, I do know that food is associated with sensing, the awareness of which foods you like and dislike, and the seeking of desirable foods. Seeking out desirable foods is actually a constant, long-term goal for me, something I never forget, which is behind everything I do, and it serves the purpose of health, but only because I suffer from a chronic illness (chronic fatigue syndrome) that causes me to always be tired and suffer constant, low-level pain all over my body. If I were perfectly healthy, I would probably not focus so much on things having to do with health and food - I would seek material objects like my SLI/ISTP brother does (always buying new cars), seeking new tools to associate himself with (+Te). But I can't associate with tools until I can associate with my body first.

 

[Retmeishka]

As a SLI, in Model B, my 7th function, the 'ignore' function, is -Se/+Si. And I do, in reality, IGNORE ugliness (up to a point - hard to explain - it has to meet certain criteria). I actually take pride in deliberately ignoring ugliness! If something or someone is ugly, I won't make a big deal out of it. I won't tell them that their clothes are ugly. I won't complain about a person after they leave the room and whisper 'Oh my god, that person was so ugly!' I won't mention ugliness even if I really dislike somebody and want to say something bad about them - I will *still* tend to ignore their ugliness.

Saying somebody is ugly 'crosses the line' for me. It's unacceptable. A person cannot help being ugly or fat, and in fact, I have collected data over my lifetime explaining the reasons why it is 'not their fault' if they are fat or ugly.

I don't like to blame someone or judge them for having a 'badly made body.' Instead, I investigate the causes of ugliness so that I can understand it and prevent it in the future, because it *is* actually a bad thing, I just don't judge someone for it. If I can find a way to prevent it in future children, then I will, but not by means of genetics ('Don't let the ugly people breed!') - instead, I prevent ugliness by advocating lifestyles that promote the health of the baby - don't do drugs, make sure you eat a nourishing diet while pregnant - all of which will prevent *deformities* of the baby, flaws, something gone wrong in their development.

Their 'natural ugliness' might still remain and is okay with me, and will be ignored. A person can be perfectly healthy, perfectly well developed, perfectly formed with no deformities, and yet still have an 'ugly' face, and I ignore this. I subconsciously am aware that I don't like someone's ugly face, but I won't talk about it verbally. So I am *aware* of the ugliness but do not verbalize it or invest much energy into it.

A SLE/ESTP, on the other hand, has -Si/+Se as their ignore function (7th), and I suspect that this causes them to 'ignore pain and injury.' I am not certain of this, but from what I know, from the few SLEs I know in person and on the internet, they do talk about not caring if they get hurt or not.

 

[Retmeishka]

I also am extremely connected to my personal belongings, so that I almost never accidentally lose anything or leave anything behind, if I bring things into a room with me and then go to another room or leave the building. This might be +Se or it might be +Te (connected to tools). I always check, double-check, and often triple-check that I have my wallet, my keys, my backpack, purse, bags, any little objects, and I am very distressed if I accidentally lose anything, ever. I cannot forgive myself for accidentally forgetting some object. I'm still not quite sure if I can explain the difference between +Se and +Te. They might have some similarities. Anyway, I am painfully traumatized if I accidentally forget something or lose something, and I will obsessively scour the area, sometimes for hours, looking for the thing. I never just 'let it go.' And I have scorn and contempt, and a lack of understanding, for people who carelessly leave things behind all the time as though they don't care about them at all, carelessly throw things on the ground, college students who buy expensive furniture and then dump it on the curb to be taken to the trash at the end of their semester - I just can't understand it. This is a very contemptible lifestyle for me. I live in a college town, State College, PA, and so I see the sofas on the curb every few months, every year.

 

[Retmeishka]

I'm thinking that -Se means the *lack of* individual force/power. Se is called 'power sensing.' I don't usually call it that because I want to focus on the idea of 'facts' and 'objects that you see in the external world.' However, it was an insight to learn that socionics associated Se with 'power' and 'force,' which was never mentioned in the MBTI from what I can remember. And I am returning to that concept of Se as 'power sensing' because of some stuff I've been reading, which refreshed my memory.

So -Se is like the absence of personal power, the disconnect from personal power. But it is also something about group power. I think it might be a large group of people who have power together, and a class of objects that have power together. I'm not quite sure about this.

It's just that I have seen a lot of vegans who were SLE and who advocate the absence of force to the point of harming themselves and their own health and nutrition, just to avoid using force on an animal. Not all vegans are SLE, and millions of SLEs are also meat eaters, it's just that I'm trying to describe how the 'lack of force' manifests in a SLE. They are often very peaceful, nonviolent people, who are, yet, quietly angry, who sometimes lose control of their anger and lash out. In my experience, I often recognize a SLE in person because they seem to constantly radiate quiet anger, nonstop. I think this might be their vulnerable 4th function, +Fi/-Fe - they can't control negative emotions, and so the negative emotions just go on and on never changing (similar to me, where I can't control +Fe/-Fi or change it, so I must always pretend to be happy no matter what emotions I am really feeling, and I must always be nice and polite to everyone (primitive -Fi) even in situations where I shouldn't).

I am not saying that SLEs never use any kind of force, or that Betas never use force. They do, definitely. I am just trying to describe the process through which they use force, and the process through which they don't use force. I think it might be group power rather than personal power. I'm thinking of the phrase 'girl power', because I was reading a discussion on feminism. However, this is also not quite right, because the SLE is often a loner, not in a group at all, disconnected from groups.

That's why I want to also think of 'groups of objects' or 'classes of objects' as a possible manifestation of -Se, and also 'common sense,' 'group sense,' 'what everyone sees and knows to be true.' Group FACTS (Factor). It's that particular one that bothers me personally - I have a lot of conflicts with people who want to promote some 'commonly known fact' (-Se, disconnected facts, objective facts, everyone's facts) to be true, when I disagree because I have seen differently with my own eyes (+Se, connected facts, subjective facts, individual person's fact collection, my own eyes have seen - this could also be described as -Si, something I sensed in the past, because the minus sign also suggests 'past' rather than future. I will tend to say 'I saw' (something my senses did) rather than 'It was' (some object out in the world). Again, -Si/+Se are 'bundled together.').

In particular this happens when I talk about medicine. I'm pretty sure it's usually Beta STs I'm arguing with if I tell an anecdote of some kind of medical problem I had, and I get a response that says, 'Anecdotes aren't scientifically valid.' They're plenty valid to me! I use my own anecdotes every moment of my life, and they work. So I think this particular conflict is a conflict between my own +Se, individually observed facts, and -Se, group facts that you don't see with your own eyes, but are commonly accepted as true among the group, disconnected facts, disassociated facts. This also might possibly be a conflict between my +Te and Beta ST's -Te (in Model B, that is).

So I think facts are 'I have seen,' and logic is 'This works.' I have seen with my own eyes (+Se) that some particular technique works (+Te). So, for instance, I might argue about the Feingold Diet in a debate with somebody who believes that hyperactivity should be treated with drugs, and they believe diets don't work to help with hyperactivity. They will use a -Se argument: group facts, peer-reviewed medical literature, group facts as presented by the drug companies, official common knowledge, everyone agrees that X is true. I will use a +Se argument, the 'I've seen it with my own eyes' argument. They will use a -Te argument, of 'It's been tested on large groups of people using an official scientific procedure,' and I will use a +Te argument, 'I've tested this myself and it works for me.' Objective logic, everyone agrees on that procedure (-Te), versus subjective logic, I use my own procedure (+Te).

So the Beta ST doesn't value individual power. They have a disconnected, disassociated form of power, the power to control all the facts that the group commonly agrees upon as true, the world of common sense. In Model B, this should also apply to the Alpha SF, but I don't have as many examples of the Alpha SF using 'common sense' and making arguments based on common sense and what everyone knows is true.

The example I was giving in another forum was 'All dogs bark.' This is common sense, and it is the type of statement that I don't like to say. I try to avoid saying statements like that. A group of objects that all have some universal characteristic which everybody is familiar with - that's common sense, -Se. All dogs have four legs - everybody who sees a dog knows this. (And I think +Ti is counting numbers, specific numbers, one two three four, which are rote memorized in sequence.) General truths, non-specific facts, about entire classes of objects.

 

[Retmeishka]

So now I will have to somehow describe what Alphas and Gammas are doing. That actually might be harder for me to talk about than Beta STs. I have more experience with direct conflicts in debates with Beta STs and I can more clearly see the differences in how we see things and how we reason. I have fewer arguments against SEEs or SEIs and don't really know how to describe the differences between them or how they differ from me personally.

If +Se is individual facts, individual power, individual force, connected force: Gamma SFs and Delta STs use this. I need to distinguish it from +Te, though. As Dario Nardi pointed out, the brain provides us with more than one way to achieve the same thing (with an image showing two different brain regions that had a similar purpose, modesty or conformity). +Te might be about using tools, directly, with your hands, to achieve force. +Se might be just about using your own physical strength without tools. +Te is about processes, detailed processes and detailed steps that you take to build something or make something, some tool that increases your force.

I'm remembering that guy in the videos, that Australian guy, who made youtube videos about hunting without weapons. I can't remember what it was called. 'Bare-handed deer catch,' that was one of them. I think he's an SEE. This is individual force, without weapons, +Se. There is another video, which would be very upsetting to some people, although I myself am able to accept it, and I'm a meat eater. I saw a video of someone who subdued the goats that he was about to slaughter, using the Halal meat slaughter procedures. He used his bare hands to gently press the goats down and quieted them, using prayers and his soothing voice. Again, I'm pretty sure this is +Se, individual force, and the guy seemed like an SEE.

I also use this type of force to gently pick up my cats and carry them where I want them to go. I don't like to use verbal commands on my cats, although there are lots of people who use verbal commands with dogs. I do remember giving verbal commands to our family dog when I was a kid (Sit, Speak, Shake [hands], No, Come). I'm not allowed to let my one cat run all over the house because he sprays and he sometimes quarrels with my landlady's cats, so I always gently block him with my hand if he tries to run out the door when I open the door to go in. I instantly put my hand in front of his face, which stops him from running out the door. This is gentle force done on the small scale between individuals. (I do let him outside, I just carry him in my arms so he won't run around the house, because he will actually stop and spray something before he even gets out the door.)

I *suspect* that somebody with a *weakness* of +Se/-Si, such as the EIE and the LII, are disconnected from their own body, and they also might possibly have a tendency to believe that 'force must be used all the time.' I'm not sure about that, and I don't have any LIIs or EIEs to observe or talk about this with. I think that you can't control your vulnerable 4th function, so it's kind of 'on all the time,' unchanging, unable to see other situations where maybe it shouldn't be used so much. You can't turn it on and off at will. Just like the SLE radiates constant, nonstop sadness and anger (which I detect when I encounter them in person) probably from their vulnerable 4th function, it may be true that the EIE radiates constant force from their vulnerable 4th function.

I'm thinking of something said to me by an EIE not too long ago, a few weeks ago in another forum. He was using military analogies and talking about a military leader who invades one city after another and subdues them (the analogy was something to the effect of, 'Sometimes you just have to wait it out, and it will work itself out over time': -Ni). He seemed to think that it was perfectly okay to talk about a military invading a bunch of cities and conquering them, as though I would see this as a neutral, normal, abstract thing, rather than something morally offensive (I didn't say anything, but actually, the idea of a military invading a whole bunch of cities and conquering them is BLOODY, SCREAMING EVIL to me - but I just kind of went along with it, and was like 'uh-huh, yeah, that's how it is.').

This might *possibly* be the EIE's vulnerable 4th function, mistakenly believing that physical force must be used all the time for everything because there is no other way to go about it - the function is 'always turned on' and cannot change or adjust to the situation. Note, this is written as -Si/+Se in Model B (so there might be greater emphasis on -Si), and I am only speculating right now, trying to describe something that I don't encounter very often, so I could be describing it wrong. I don't have a lot of EIEs that I can call up and ask, 'How would you describe this?'

However, in Beta, force would manifest as group force, not individual force, so it would be valued -Se, a large group of military. It's strange that I can describe an SLE as a surprisingly peaceful person who strongly avoids the use of force, and yet, on the flip side, -Se also manifests as huge groups of people invading and conquering cities. I'm still working on defining all of this. Some of it is -Te. Some of it might be other functions from other quadras.

Every quadra uses force. And I want to distinguish this from another way of seeing things, which says, everyone uses all of the functions. I agree with that, we do, but Model B is more than that. Model B basically has 16 information elements. Disconnected Se (-Se) is extremely different from connected Se (+Se), and it really blurs all the distinctions if you just label the whole thing as 'power' or 'force,' causing a lot of confusion. There are more nuances than that. I think these distinctions are extremely important.

I'm not saying that I myself am an expert on them, either. I'm just interested in describing all the nuances of the sensing functions, because nobody else can. All the various tests and books are usually written by intuitives, who do not know how to describe strong sensing from their own experience. They can describe weak sensing from their own experience, or they can describe a very oversimplified concept of sensing (sensing is 'comfort,' sensing is 'tradition') which many sensors don't resonate with at all (it's very different to describe something in positive language as 'comfort' (I'm picturing a soft, cushioned recliner, fuzzy bedroom slippers, a bathrobe, and a cup of hot chocolate) versus describing it in negative language such as 'actively avoiding and preventing pain, injury, and sickness in the long run and on the large scale, even if it means going without many pleasures and indulgences.' Totally different kind of sensing! Not even in the same universe!) Also, people need to give tons and tons of specific examples when they talk about these things. Many people want to just sum it up in the fewest possible words and the largest possible abstractions, but people can't relate to that or understand it. I want to collect lots of anecdotes and examples.

Anyway, every quadra uses force, every quadra has some way of talking about facts and reality, every quadra uses their senses to look at the external world and the internal world, it's just that we have different ways of going about it, so I want to describe the nuances of those ways of accomplishing the same things.

 

[Retmeishka]

The plus and minus signs have several meanings. One meaning has to do with time.

Plus = the present and future
Minus = the past, present, and future (all the time, or just the past)

I know that's confusing, but I'm going to give some examples.

+Si: I'm planning a pleasant experience in the future, in great detail. It will involve a dozen scented candles and a hot spa. I can't wait to do this when I get home. (*Edit, it's really more like, I can't wait to *feel* this.*)

-Se: This was the group knowledge in the past, the common sense of the past, otherwise known as 'tradition' (hence the reason why I am very offended by all the descriptions of all sensors as 'traditional' in most of the Myers-Briggs tests). We, the group, have always (past, present, future) done it this way. The particular commodities (interchangeable groups of objects, maybe -Se, or objects with particular properties/functions, maybe -Te) that we use to make our Native American costumes have changed because more materials are available to us nowadays, so we're using glass beads and brightly dyed feathers bought from a store even though we didn't have those thousands of years ago. This is the tribe's tradition.

I'm using that example because there is something that offends me, and I'm trying to identify which information element it is, and explain why it is conflicting with my own elements. I don't like modern Native American powwows where they dress up in costumes using plastic, brightly dyed feathers, metal, and other materials-commodities that weren't available to the Native Americans before Europeans invaded. It's almost like they're happy to have been invaded and given all this nice plastic and all these nice chemicals. It bothers me when this tradition includes all the junk we buy at the store in modern times. I have 3-dimensional -Se disvalued as my 7th function, so I may have a more rigid view of what traditions are "supposed" to be, whereas a SLE has 4-dimensional -Se and might not be bothered by a tradition that changes over time and becomes all-inclusive. It also violates my value of self-reliance, where I'd rather be doing things locally instead of trading globally to obtain junky pieces of plastic made in China. I'm identifying 'Native American Powwows' with the SLE personality type because I actually went to one sometime, I forget when, maybe last year, and it felt like just about everybody there, and all of the people giving speeches, or most of them, were SLEs, it seemed. It seemed like there were an overwhelming number of SLEs involved. Maybe some were SEIs, too, I don't know - I'm still not clear on what the SEI does with its 4-dimensional +Si/-Se base function.

-Si: I sensed something in the past. I heard this, I tasted this, I smelled this, saw this, felt this. Or, not just the past, but the past, present, future, and all the time. Grammar: I hear this, I always hear this, I always hear people talking about this, Sometimes I feel this. Sometimes I get sick. I got sick one time when I ate this food.

+Se: I want this particular thing in the future, and I will make an effort to get it. I want to see this thing. I want to have this thing locally, in my near environment. I want to obtain hormone-free, grass-fed beef. I will get this in the future. The power to bring objects into my near environment.

And so, I guess -Se is the group's power to bring large objects or geographic regions into their general environment, so that they own those large regions? I'm trying to understand why one source described -Se as something like 'invasion of territory.' I will have to go look up exactly what words they used. It's badly translated. Maybe it's like, inclusive ownership, everything shall be included in my ownership in the world, if somebody somewhere needs it then it's mine, too, even if I don't want that particular thing myself - global needs, global ownership, group ownership.

But what is, say, group worship of an idol, of one particular individual who lived in the past (minus sign with Fi? -Fi?)? The whole group uses copies of this idol, although not *one particular* idol in one particular location. If you are talking about 'one particular' idol, that's like everybody facing towards Mecca when they pray - it's one object, in one particular space on earth, and no other location on earth is like that one unique location (+Se). But everybody in the group having many copies of the idol, which all look the same, which doesn't emphasize one particular location on the planet, what is that? Like everybody worshiping a little statue of Christ on the cross. They all look the same. Any one of these objects will do the job. Any object that looks like this image is fine. Even if the image of Christ appears in a cloud formation in the sky, or if his face appears in the shape of a potato, that's fine. What is this function?

Also, I'm *really* gonna have to start observing some SEEs and SEIs and describing what they are doing. It's actually kind of harder to describe them, because I have fewer conflicts with them, as they are in my neighboring quadras. It's actually kind of easier to describe something that I'm always having fights and conflicts and debates with, something which particularly offends me or annoys me, and that would be something in my opposing quadra.

 

[Retmeishka]

Double dang it. First, I forgot to write something I had been thinking. Then, when I tried to write it just now, I pushed a button and moved to a different web page and deleted it. Okay, let's try again. I hadn't written that much.

An example of grammar that I thought was interesting:

-Si: I saw this.
-Se: This happened.

Is that right? Se talks about objects out in the world which exist apart from you. Si talks about what you experienced in your senses.

I had noticed an SEI in another forum, telling a story. Like me, he rambled on and on in a big wall of text, but in his grammar, he tended to say, 'First this happened. Then this happened.' Is that -Se? It's talking about objects and events *externally*, in a passive way.

So how does +Se talk about the past? Is it possible for +Se to refer to something that happened in the past? That might possibly be 'I did this.' It emphasizes me and my personal power and my responsibility (like Nathaniel Branden, who is ESI, and I didn't feel like explaining in much detail about why I'm sure he's an ESI instead of an EIE like they typed him in another forum - I'm contented to know on my own that he's an ESI - always emphasizing personal power, your own responsibility). If +Se is capable of talking about something that 'I did' in the past, then.... how can it be a plus sign, if plus signs talk about the present and future? Hmmm. Maybe I need a better description of how exactly the plus signs refer to time.

And then, how would +Si talk about the past? I'm not sure how to describe it, but when an Alpha SF starts telling a story of something that happened in the past, they are able to tell the story in much greater detail than I can. They literally remember photographically every step they took for the entire day. First, I got out of bed, by pushing my right arm against the bed, while inhaling through my nose, and then, I pressed my right foot against the floor and exhaled through my mouth. And they can remember the entire effing day like that. That's something I can't do. I need to get their grammar by actually finding an SEI who will tell a story.

There was someone who I thought was an SEI, but she might have been a SLE, someone I used to work with at McDonald's, and sometimes I thought she was an ESE. I'm not quite sure what type she was. When she told a story, she would be like, 'Sarah, Bob, Jane, and I (+Fi, individual people known personally by name) went out drinking last night. Sarah ordered a such-and-such drink, remember that? (+Si, enjoyment of drinking).' Each person, and each drink that they ordered, all night long, will be remembered and talked about in thorough detail. First Sarah had Special Drink #1, then after that, Sarah had Special Drink #2, and she would remember what every single person in the entire group had had to drink all night long. After drinking Special Drink #6, Sarah tripped and fell down the steps. That's when Bob said something funny that made us all laugh.

And they will be able to tell a story like this, when I myself have a much more vague, blurred-together memory of what I did last night. I can't really tell you exactly what I did yesterday. I have a much more blurred together, general -Si, where the stuff that I always do, in general, during a particular time period, is remembered. I can tell you that in the year of 2014, I was still camping (I had stealth-camped for a long time instead of living in an apartment). But I cannot tell you that on the date of July 21st I got up at 5:38 in the morning, and stubbed my toe.

+Fi valuing: Only if an event has a strong personal meaning to me, associated with loved ones, will I remember a day in more detail, often because I wrote it down in a diary somewhere. The day I met my boyfriend, my current IEE dual, I walked into Taco Bell where I was working at the time, and saw him at the table with two other people, and he greeted me as soon as I walked in, even though I had never met him before, and it seemed like he was the 'Official Greeter' whose job it was to make everybody feel welcome. And I remember a bunch of stuff he said and did that day, and I wrote it down on my computer.

-Fe valuing: I think this might be -Fe, but I'm not sure. It's when everybody feels a shared emotion in the group, often camaraderie, a feeling that we all belong together, we all belong here, we all like and accept each other, we all are involved in doing this, in this moment, together. -Fe is part of a Delta valued function (+Fi/-Fe bundled together). I wrote stories in my diary, as a teenager, about taking field trips, and how we all felt a shared emotion while having an unusual experience, all of us riding the bus together and everybody feeling the same way, the shared excitement of going on a trip (I actually gave myself goosebumps just now describing this - I haven't felt this way in a lonnnngggggg time, very sadly).

 

[Retmeishka]

'Sadness' (and the whole character, actually) in the movie 'Inside Out' is an SEI/ISFP. They use +Si, detailed processes of internal sensing. I myself use -Si, the end result that skips over the detailed processes of how you got there. Plus is 'process,' minus is 'result.'

Sadness is lying on the floor and she can't get up because she's too sad. She explains that she's lying on the floor for a reason, and things are going on, processes, while she lies there. I forget the exact words she used, but she said something like 'I'm lying here feeling sorry for myself,' and implied she was doing it deliberately, like she had a purpose for choosing to lie on the floor, and she was actually going to accomplish something specific by doing that, some kind of internal processing.

I, on the other hand, will say, 'I can't get up.' Saying 'I can't do something' might be -Si. I'm not sure. I don't say 'I'm lying here because I need to do this and that internal processing,' like Sadness said in the movie. With me, it's, 'I'm lying here because I can't get up.' I can't do this, and I can't do that. I don't talk about what I *am* doing, in thorough detail, like Sadness did. I emphasize what I *can't* do.

The reason I thought of this is because I felt so crappy this morning I could hardly get out of bed. My body hurt and I had no energy. 'I have no energy' might be -Si, lack of energy. +Si might be 'presence of active energy which is doing something specific in detail.' It's doing something inside. I don't know if youtube will have scenes from 'Inside Out' yet since it's still in theaters, so I can't just go grab the exact quote from youtube. I'll look and see if it's there but it probably won't be.

As always, and as Dario Nardi said, the brain gives us different ways to accomplish the same thing. Both Sadness and I are lying down and refusing to get up, but we have different ways of explaining how and why we are doing that.

 

[Cellmold]

I'm thinking that -Se means the *lack of* individual force/power. Se is called 'power sensing.' I don't usually call it that because I want to focus on the idea of 'facts' and 'objects that you see in the external world.' However, it was an insight to learn that socionics associated Se with 'power' and 'force,' which was never mentioned in the MBTI from what I can remember. And I am returning to that concept of Se as 'power sensing' because of some stuff I've been reading, which refreshed my memory.

So -Se is like the absence of personal power, the disconnect from personal power. But it is also something about group power. I think it might be a large group of people who have power together, and a class of objects that have power together. I'm not quite sure about this.

It's just that I have seen a lot of vegans who were SLE and who advocate the absence of force to the point of harming themselves and their own health and nutrition, just to avoid using force on an animal. Not all vegans are SLE, and millions of SLEs are also meat eaters, it's just that I'm trying to describe how the 'lack of force' manifests in a SLE. They are often very peaceful, nonviolent people, who are, yet, quietly angry, who sometimes lose control of their anger and lash out. In my experience, I often recognize a SLE in person because they seem to constantly radiate quiet anger, nonstop. I think this might be their vulnerable 4th function, +Fi/-Fe - they can't control negative emotions, and so the negative emotions just go on and on never changing (similar to me, where I can't control +Fe/-Fi or change it, so I must always pretend to be happy no matter what emotions I am really feeling, and I must always be nice and polite to everyone (primitive -Fi) even in situations where I shouldn't).

I am not saying that SLEs never use any kind of force, or that Betas never use force. They do, definitely. I am just trying to describe the process through which they use force, and the process through which they don't use force. I think it might be group power rather than personal power. I'm thinking of the phrase 'girl power', because I was reading a discussion on feminism. However, this is also not quite right, because the SLE is often a loner, not in a group at all, disconnected from groups.

That's why I want to also think of 'groups of objects' or 'classes of objects' as a possible manifestation of -Se, and also 'common sense,' 'group sense,' 'what everyone sees and knows to be true.' Group FACTS (Factor). It's that particular one that bothers me personally - I have a lot of conflicts with people who want to promote some 'commonly known fact' (-Se, disconnected facts, objective facts, everyone's facts) to be true, when I disagree because I have seen differently with my own eyes (+Se, connected facts, subjective facts, individual person's fact collection, my own eyes have seen - this could also be described as -Si, something I sensed in the past, because the minus sign also suggests 'past' rather than future. I will tend to say 'I saw' (something my senses did) rather than 'It was' (some object out in the world). Again, -Si/+Se are 'bundled together.').

In particular this happens when I talk about medicine. I'm pretty sure it's usually Beta STs I'm arguing with if I tell an anecdote of some kind of medical problem I had, and I get a response that says, 'Anecdotes aren't scientifically valid.' They're plenty valid to me! I use my own anecdotes every moment of my life, and they work. So I think this particular conflict is a conflict between my own +Se, individually observed facts, and -Se, group facts that you don't see with your own eyes, but are commonly accepted as true among the group, disconnected facts, disassociated facts. This also might possibly be a conflict between my +Te and Beta ST's -Te (in Model B, that is).

So I think facts are 'I have seen,' and logic is 'This works.' I have seen with my own eyes (+Se) that some particular technique works (+Te). So, for instance, I might argue about the Feingold Diet in a debate with somebody who believes that hyperactivity should be treated with drugs, and they believe diets don't work to help with hyperactivity. They will use a -Se argument: group facts, peer-reviewed medical literature, group facts as presented by the drug companies, official common knowledge, everyone agrees that X is true. I will use a +Se argument, the 'I've seen it with my own eyes' argument. They will use a -Te argument, of 'It's been tested on large groups of people using an official scientific procedure,' and I will use a +Te argument, 'I've tested this myself and it works for me.' Objective logic, everyone agrees on that procedure (-Te), versus subjective logic, I use my own procedure (+Te).

So the Beta ST doesn't value individual power. They have a disconnected, disassociated form of power, the power to control all the facts that the group commonly agrees upon as true, the world of common sense. In Model B, this should also apply to the Alpha SF, but I don't have as many examples of the Alpha SF using 'common sense' and making arguments based on common sense and what everyone knows is true.

The example I was giving in another forum was 'All dogs bark.' This is common sense, and it is the type of statement that I don't like to say. I try to avoid saying statements like that. A group of objects that all have some universal characteristic which everybody is familiar with - that's common sense, -Se. All dogs have four legs - everybody who sees a dog knows this. (And I think +Ti is counting numbers, specific numbers, one two three four, which are rote memorized in sequence.) General truths, non-specific facts, about entire classes of objects.

After reading through these, this one struck me the most as it is most relatable to my own experiences.

Common sense and the controlling of information within me, myself and everyone else. All those differing perspectives. Interesting ideas, I should brush up on Socionics more (he said for the umpteenth time).

 

[Retmeishka]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH! I can't edit those original posts. The model is wrong (well, not the actual model, but my chart) - I have TYPOS EVERYWHERE in the Gamma Quadra! I copied and pasted the wrong thing! I am so mad at myself especially after thinking it was perfect and then posting it here and in one or two other places! GRAAAAAAARRRRRRRR! Gonna rewrite the thing now.

- - - Updated - - -

I put +Si/-Se everywhere in Gamma. It's supposed to say +Se/-Si. AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGG

 

[Retmeishka]

The new chart. Let's see if I can remember how to link to an image. I tried really, really, really hard to painstakingly go through it and make sure there were no typos this time. Having huge typos all over a really important chart is mortifying, like going out in public with something on your face and everyone is talking to you and being polite, until finally someone says, 'Hey, you need a tissue,' and you're like, 'I was walking around all day like this and nobody told me???' That's how I feel about my typo.