Male F, Female T

[Coriolis]

Gender stereotypes in general are exasperating.

Indeed, and pointless as well.

For women, it's just when you go to a weekly playcircle, most moms don't want to be discussing the formation of black holes or the impact of greehouse gases on the environment.

No kidding. Very disheartening, and you don't have to go to a kids' playcircle to find yourself among women with banal conversational tastes.

I agree with everything [MENTION=10251]redherring[/MENTION] and [MENTION=23115]BadOctopus[/MENTION] have stated. Gender stereotypes are toxic to male F types. Feeling is seen by our society as "feminine" and being "feminine" is being "weak", so Feeling males who use their natural dom/aux functions are seen as "weak". It's a bit better for women Ts, because being a T is considered "strong" and "masculine" which is okay, but even then, they might get criticized for not being "feminine" or "womanly" enough.

Nobody can ever win.

I did. I've never let any of this get in the way of what I want to do.

If women Ts have it easier, it's only because it is in the nature of T not to care overmuch what someone else thinks of us (or is that just NT?)

 

[Yama]

I did. I've never let any of this get in the way of what I want to do.

If women Ts have it easier, it's only because it is in the nature of T not to care overmuch what someone else thinks of us (or is that just NT?)

Yeah. I didn't really mean that they have it easier, just that it's more "acceptable". Kind of like how it's acceptable for women to wear men's clothing but "unacceptable" for men to wear women's clothing (ugh). I also have the feeling that for women Ts, people would be more likely to feign acceptance but totally be silently judging you for not being more womanly/ladylike/feminine etc, whereas I feel like male Fs would be more likely to be physically confronted. Am I the only one who thinks that?

 

[Frosty]

Personally I have had problems with friends who expect me to sympathize with certain individuals and their hardships, usually my resonse to this is to point out what the person did to deserve what happened to them, this leads to people looking at me like what??

Lately it is annoying as all hell because I keep getting told off for not being friendly enough with people. I generally just do not like talking to people my own age, especially girls my own age, because generally it is all just drama. I can enjoy drama and gossip to an extent, but they will like cry and everyone will be hugging and I am wondering what the big deal is.

Like the other day the people at work were all talking about their depression and suicide attempts and crying and I was like seriously... I guess I am just not that deep. Society does expect quite alot of women in regards to nurturing.

 

[FemMecha]

Do you think that it is harder to be a male F in a society where men are stereotyped as alligning more with thinking traits. Do you think that it is more difficult to be a female T in a country where women are supposed to naturally be more feeling oriented. Do you think that it is more difficult to be a male F or a female T?

Are male Fs less expressive with their feelings than their female counterparts because of societal expectations? Are female Ts more likely to act more nurturing and emotional than male Ts because that is what is expected of them?

These are good questions with complex answers. I think that T traits are an advantage to both genders in professional contexts. Generally it is more difficult for any individual who falls outside the norm, so generally I think it can be more difficult for both, but in different ways. Sensitive men do have a tough time in the world for sure. It can also be difficult for a T woman professionally because the imbalances are especially frustrating for them.

Part of the reason I've avoided what would be my normal professional environments is because I'm not T enough. More than that I'm not male enough. I've observed the women who do get the jobs and some level of success and even their external appearance, dress, haircut, mannerisms have to be masculine. For one simple example, virtually no female music professor I've ever had would have long hair. It is always short, butch, their manner rough, clipped, and masculine. I'd have to consciously change my external self if I ever hoped to get a job. I'm sure people will immediately think of exceptions, and yes, there are exceptions, but statistically it is how I describe it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't think I'm a feeler, but I do feel like I have experienced consequences for not fitting into certain male roles. In a way, being intellectual and not being too interested in sports is also often seen as unmasculine. I'm also uninterested in pissing contests, and this has also caused problems in the past.

It would be nice if people would quit asking me if I'm a lesbian just because I enjoy shopping for power tools but hate shopping for clothing...

Otherwise, I'm generally left alone in my T ways

I think it's pretty obvious that buying tools is the same thing as desiring other women sexually. Because logic.

 

[BluRoses]

[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] I wish that you were in my mommy play circle. So much of what those women want to talk about are just plain boring to me...
[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] I love my power tools! I also really enjoy going to Lowes or Home Depot. I am definitely a Feeler, but I love the possibilities that are open to you with home improvement.

I think I have just learned that I need more T women friends.

 

[FemMecha]

For women, it's just when you go to a weekly playcircle, most moms don't want to be discussing the formation of black holes or the impact of greehouse gases on the environment.

I like this. Would it be the same though with a generalized group of men? It seems like sports and politics are common topics of choice. I wonder how the percentages would look for either gender to talk about interesting topics.

 

[Totenkindly]

Jennifer I wish that you were in my mommy play circle. So much of what those women want to talk about are just plain boring to me...

yay!

But yes. I can deal for a little bit in similar kinds of circles, then I start to go a little bugnuts.

I like this. Would it be the same though with a generalized group of men? It seems like sports and politics are common topics of choice. I wonder how the percentages would look for either gender to talk about interesting topics.

Yeah, sports and politics and cars seem pretty typical, although I think it's easier to find guys who fall into a "geek" or "tech geek" category than it is for girls with interests in those areas.

Normally girls with interests like that hang out with guys who talk about them because it's hard to find other women.

There is another woman in one of my gaming groups, but in my other two groups I'm the only girl.

One really nice thing about where I work now is that it's IT/tech, but it's a very diverse force. More than half the people I work with are women (and it seems pretty 50/50 as far as white/non-white goes as well), and whether the woman is a T or an F type, she is typically technically competent and expresses strong analytical skills.

 

[Frosty]

Yeah most of my friends are guys. I find them more interesting to talk to and less likely to get offended in general. Women can get really catty. I talk to both, but generally my more interesting discussions are with guys.

 

[FemMecha]

Yeah, sports and politics and cars seem pretty typical, although I think it's easier to find guys who fall into a "geek" or "tech geek" category than it is for girls with interests in those areas.

Normally girls with interests like that hang out with guys who talk about them because it's hard to find other women.

There is another woman in one of my gaming groups, but in my other two groups I'm the only girl.

One really nice thing about where I work now is that it's IT/tech, but it's a very diverse force. More than half the people I work with are women (and it seems pretty 50/50 as far as white/non-white goes as well), and whether the woman is a T or an F type, she is typically technically competent and expresses strong analytical skills.

I can definitely see there are more guys with tech related interests. I'm just remembering growing up with my super-nerd INFJ brother, and he almost never had guy friends. He was into theoretical physics and Dr Who even as a child with little hope of finding anyone like minded. It's hard to say which one of us had a harder time finding friends to talk to about interesting things. He wasn't rigorously technical with computers, but proficient talking about it. There's so much macho interfacing between guys socially that is just as subjective and emotionally driven as the giggly relationship and clothing talk women have.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I can definitely see there are more guys with tech related interests. I'm just remembering growing up with my super-nerd INFJ brother, and he almost never had guy friends. He was into theoretical physics and Dr Who even as a child with little hope of finding anyone like minded. It's hard to say which one of us had a harder time finding friends to talk to about interesting things. He wasn't rigorously technical with computers, but proficient talking about it. There's so much macho interfacing between guys socially that is just as subjective and emotionally driven as the giggly relationship and clothing talk women have.

I've always found the concept that "men are less emotionally-driven" to be ridiculous. They express emotions in different ways, but the idea that most men don't act on them or make judgments based on them is pretty ludicrous. I suspect that people are confusing "emotional" with being overly huggy.

 

[Coriolis]

Yeah. I didn't really mean that they have it easier, just that it's more "acceptable". Kind of like how it's acceptable for women to wear men's clothing but "unacceptable" for men to wear women's clothing (ugh). I also have the feeling that for women Ts, people would be more likely to feign acceptance but totally be silently judging you for not being more womanly/ladylike/feminine etc, whereas I feel like male Fs would be more likely to be physically confronted. Am I the only one who thinks that?

As long as they keep their judgments to themselves and don't get in my way, I really don't care.

Part of the reason I've avoided what would be my normal professional environments is because I'm not T enough. More than that I'm not male enough. I've observed the women who do get the jobs and some level of success and even their external appearance, dress, haircut, mannerisms have to be masculine. For one simple example, virtually no female music professor I've ever had would have long hair. It is always short, butch, their manner rough, clipped, and masculine. I'd have to consciously change my external self if I ever hoped to get a job. I'm sure people will immediately think of exceptions, and yes, there are exceptions, but statistically it is how I describe it.

But what makes short hair masculine? There were vast periods of history where men had long hair, too (Samson was no anomaly). And all those other traits - why do the useful ones get called "masculine" and the decorative or outright counterproductive ones "feminine"? I have no problem with being a woman, but I don't see why that should suggest I will behave in one way as opposed to another, or prefer one thing over another.

I like this. Would it be the same though with a generalized group of men? It seems like sports and politics are common topics of choice. I wonder how the percentages would look for either gender to talk about interesting topics.

Yes, men just tend to have a different set of superficial topics, sports and cars being common ones. On average, though, I can usually get a better discussion with a group of women than men. (At least there's a chance I will learn something useful in the car discussion.)

I've always found the concept that "men are less emotionally-driven" to be ridiculous. They express emotions in different ways, but the idea that most men don't act on them or make judgments based on them is pretty ludicrous. I suspect that people are confusing "emotional" with being overly huggy.

Just look at a group of men watching a sporting event to see the truth of this.

 

[Xander]

I have seen a few male Fs who were bullied at school (not knowingly for their preference by more for their lack of desire for logic and their more reactionary responses to jibes). It can be almost like they dislike themselves for not being able to do the male thing and set their minds to do evil things in response. In fact my best man often gets quite wound up because he would like to be less caring and get more of what he wants... But he can't quite manage it.

As for T women, I think that half the time they are blissfully unaware of any issue. I think the problem usually comes from other females who don't like this new vibe and pick a pack they attack to redress the unwanted behaviour. Of course most people are cowards so they do it passive aggressive.

I have one new member of staff who seems to be ISTJ or INTJ and she's rubbing other women up the wrong way. They see her as almost snobbish where as I've found her to be blunt but fascinating to talk to. Oddly enough my ENFJ boss is blunt to a fault and she doesn't like this woman either.

Some days I just imagine an F brain working like a popular soap opera... The drama, the complicated and slightly unbelievable plots... Mind you, I am a cynic.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

T women can bully other T women, too. I've seen it happen. I'd be cautious about being too reverent about the inherent inborn stoicism of T types. Being unaware of or neglecting emotional responses is not the same thing as not having them.

Could you define what you mean by F types not using logic? What was an instance where they were failing to apply it?

 

[Forever_Jung]

T women can bully other T women, too. I've seen it happen. I'd be cautious about being too reverent about the inherent inborn stoicism of T types. Being unaware of or neglecting emotional responses is not the same thing as not having them.

Yeah, no type is perfect. I know some definite T's, who do vindictive/petty things but deny they're doing anything. And I do believe they believe that. They think they are too logical and impartial for such things. Shadow F can be ugly (just as any shadow function can be).

 

[Frosty]

I guess T is just less likely to dwell on negative emotions while with F simmers in them. Rejection would just end up being a much smaller part of a Ts world, and it would encompass nearly everything in the world of a strong feeler. Guess thats just the nature of personality preferences.

Are T men more likely to be stronger Ts than T women? Are people of a gender that is sterotyped one way more likely to develop their functions that help them relate better to their peers? Will they try to go more against the grain of their own personality type, and develop their lower order functions more than those of the opposite sex? Thoughts?

 

[Coriolis]

Could you define what you mean by F types not using logic? What was an instance where they were failing to apply it?

Say your boss makes some pointed but valid criticisms of your work, perhaps even more harshly than normal since there are deadlines and he is under alot of stress. You are generally on good terms with him and he sees you as a good performer overall. You even understand how/where you messed up in the present case. But you still feel the sting of the criticism, and lash out at him in anger, not namecalling but accusing him of being unfair, not appreciating you, etc. etc. The situation can easily escalate from here.

Logic will see this. It will understand: yes, I'm angry, and the boss could have been kinder in his criticism, but he's right and yelling accusations won't help. It will just make things worse. Best thing to do is to is to acknowledge my mistake, do my best to fix it, and learn from it for the future.

I'm sure T types do this sort of thing, too, but Fs seem more likely to take things personally and react from their emotion, in a way that they feel will be emotionally satisfying in the moment, even if it makes things worse overall. I think Ts are more likely to have enough detachment from the situation to realize that an emotional response will do more harm than good, even if the boss is completely wrong, never liked you, or is being irrational himself.

Are T men more likely to be stronger Ts than T women? Are people of a gender that is sterotyped one way more likely to develop their functions that help them relate better to their peers? Will they try to go more against the grain of their own personality type, and develop their lower order functions more than those of the opposite sex? Thoughts?

I think people in the minority for their gender may choose to learn to emulate the expected behaviors and reactions to get along or get ahead, but their real preferences won't be stronger than their typemates of the opposite sex. Some of us are just less willing to bother with this than others.

 

[chubber]

Personally I have had problems with friends who expect me to sympathize with certain individuals and their hardships, usually my resonse to this is to point out what the person did to deserve what happened to them, this leads to people looking at me like what??

Lately it is annoying as all hell because I keep getting told off for not being friendly enough with people. I generally just do not like talking to people my own age, especially girls my own age, because generally it is all just drama. I can enjoy drama and gossip to an extent, but they will like cry and everyone will be hugging and I am wondering what the big deal is.

Like the other day the people at work were all talking about their depression and suicide attempts and crying and I was like seriously... I guess I am just not that deep. Society does expect quite alot of women in regards to nurturing.

lol, you almost sound like a TJ

 

[Frosty]

Oh yeah I am absolutely horrible when someone is having some sort of emotional problem. The one guy was telling me he was suicidal and the first thing I told his was that maybe he wouldnt be so depressed if he stopped drinking all the time and started going to class. Friend gets fired from job and I ask what she did wrong and for all the details first instead of offering my condolences, usually though I realize that some sympathy is warrented but it usually comes wayy later than the other person expects. My work though is the exception, it is like an emotional roller coaster for people there, there is always someone crying or have some serious emotional conversation, I stay away because I know 9 times out of ten I will say something or make some sort of joke and the person will start crying harder. It has happened there.

 

[ceecee]

Oh yeah I am absolutely horrible when someone is having some sort of emotional problem. The one guy was telling me he was suicidal and the first thing I told his was that maybe he wouldnt be so depressed if he stopped drinking all the time and started going to class. Friend gets fired from job and I ask what she did wrong and for all the details first instead of offering my condolences, usually though I realize that some sympathy is warrented but it usually comes wayy later than the other person expects. My work though is the exception, it is like an emotional roller coaster for people there, there is always someone crying or have some serious emotional conversation, I stay away because I know 9 times out of ten I will say something or make some sort of joke and the person will start crying harder. It has happened there.

I did this all the time. Now I just say - I'm sorry to hear that, <insert solution to issue>. I feel compelled to give the solution but there are way less people running away crying in my life if I offer the sympathy first, and quickly. Occasionally, very occasionally, someone will actually appreciate the solution. Usually they just want to vent.