[SP] On Learning

[Endolori]

This may or may not be related to type but I think it is.

Anyway the problem is I'm helping out my SP cousin with her studies and I encounter A LOT of problems with communicating concepts to her properly. For example, the other day I was trying to explain some Physics concept to her and she just gave me a blank stare. Then I proceeded to give a concrete example of what I was talking about and she said, "wasn't this exactly what I was telling you just now?"

So yeah, I'm in a bit of a quandary. So just asking you sensors out there, how do you usually learn? Would talking about concepts help, or do I need to be extremely precise in my wording when explaining things? In what way would information be more clearly brought across to a sensor?

Anyway the irritating thing is that she'd treat me as if I were crazy if I tried explaining concepts in an impressionistic way. I just get this feeling that we just don't get one another and it's quite detrimental. And no, I don't have the same problem with my sister (an ENFP).

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Jeffster]

do I need to be extremely precise in my wording when explaining things?

Yes. The more concrete and less abstract you can make it the better.

I usually learn by doing. Often no amount of explanation gets through to me until I can actually do the thing, whatever it is. I know zilch about physics but I assume there's some sort of formulas involved? I'd have to write them myself, probably over and over again until I got it right.

Sorry I'm not more help, but your questions are too abstract.

 

[Mole]

Yes. The more concrete and less abstract you can make it the better.

I usually learn by doing. Often no amount of explanation gets through to me until I can actually do the thing, whatever it is. I know zilch about physics but I assume there's some sort of formulas involved? I'd have to write them myself, probably over and over again until I got it right.

Sorry I'm not more help, but your questions are too abstract.

Learning takes place on two levels - the concrete and the abstract.

If you are limited to the concrete, you are very limited. For instance, if you try to leave a neurosis, like insomnia, using the concrete only, that is, by external means, you will fail.

Indeed it is the interplay between the concrete and the abstract that is learning.

Those who are limited to the concrete have a learning disability.

 

[Thursday]

those who are limited have a learning disability.
vague, but a bit more true than " Those who are limited to the concrete have a learning disability. "
fixed.

 

[Endolori]

I'd have to write them myself, probably over and over again until I got it right.

You're right actually. I find that's mostly how I remember stuff as well, although I don't really see how this applies to helping someone else understand a concept. that said, it's a good idea regardless.

those who are limited have a learning disability.
vague, but a bit more true than " Those who are limited to the concrete have a learning disability. "
fixed.

Don't we all have limitations somewhere? Like, I tend to skim over precise definitions of stuff and end up totally messing up concepts because it wasn't clear enough in my head.

I wouldn't say a sensor is limited from learning abstract stuff also. I have a sensor friend who handles advanced chemistry like it's super simple. I think ideas or concepts just takes a different form when perceived by sensors. That said, I don't really have any idea how they learn things, that's why my question.

Perhaps if I worked backwards, from giving practical applications and then explaining the underlying concept from there? But wouldn't that be too limiting and constricting, and she'd be less able to branch out the concept/theory and apply it to other situations?

 

[Jeffster]

You're right actually. I find that's mostly how I remember stuff as well, although I don't really see how this applies to helping someone else understand a concept. that said, it's a good idea regardless.

What is the purpose of understanding the concept? Is it not to then apply that concept in some way? By doing something with it?

Perhaps if I worked backwards, from giving practical applications and then explaining the underlying concept from there? But wouldn't that be too limiting and constricting, and she'd be less able to branch out the concept/theory and apply it to other situations?

I don't know, when you talk in vague terms, there's little that I know to tell you. But, to use an example of a theory/concept that I have come to understand, take MBTI, the reason I'm here. I did not learn MBTI as a concept/theory, I learned about it by reading the type descriptions that talked about people's actual behavior in life and then the stuff about recognizing the patterns of behavior to identify types. If I had started reading all that cognitive function formula stuff first, I would have never got into it, because on the surface, that's just a bunch of gibberish to me. I still zone out on discussions on this forum that get too heavily into endless theoretical hypothesis, instead of talking about how these things actually play out in the real world. So, it sounds like an example of what you call "working backwards" even though it seems completely forwards to me.

 

[Endolori]

Hehe I'd love to get deeper into the cognitive processes thing actually. It's somewhat easier to remember 8 function-attitudes than 16 different behaviour patterns.

Anyway that's one perspective I'd take into account next time. Come to think of it, I don't think I've really met other people who study the way I do.

 

[alicia91]

I'm not sure it's a sensor-intuitive issue. Personally I didn't have any trouble understanding more abstract subject in highschool or college (I'm just not really interested in them). I'd look at what learning style she has - visual, auditory or hands-on. Most people are visual learners (perhaps those are the Sensors?) and appreciate diagrams, pictures, flow-charts etc.

Personally I'm a combination of visual and hands-on and just explaining complicated information with words is very confusing unless I can easily understand what you are saying. If you are telling me something that I'm struggling to understand then by the time you tell me the next bit of info I've already lost the previous thing you told me. So I really benefit from taking notes or making a diagram etc and going STEP-BY-STEP.

Another thing with me, I like to see where we are headed UP FRONT (the big picture) then have it broken down into teachable steps. This could be something specific to ISTPs (Chart-the-Course) but I'm not sure. So, what helps me is to say "I'm going to be teaching you about the 16 personality types, each of which has their own pattern of cognitive processes, temperments, and interaction styles. Let's start by..........." Might not be a good example but KWIM? If you don't do this then I have trouble holding all the info together and it's feels random.

 

[Jeffster]

Visual has always been my weakest learning method.

I definitely go:

1. Hands-on
2. Auditory
3. Pure Luck/Miracle
4. Visual

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Maybe she's having problems listening because she's not comfortable. That's what I've found in tutoring.

 

[Mole]

Abstracting the Abstract

The advantage of the abstract is that it covers a multitude of concrete examples.

But that is only the beginning because the next step is to abstract from the abstract. And it is here you enter an entirely new world.

And this new world is the world of the intellect.

There is an entire intellectual life going on around you but if you haven't learnt to abstract from the abstract, it is invisible to you.

There are some who have never learnt to read so the entire literate life is lost to them. And it is exactly the same for those who have never learnt to abstract the abstract, the entire intellectual life is lost to them.

And not being able to take part in the intellectual life, they become anti-intellectual. And even though they are blind, they trumpet their opinions.

 

[colmena]

Let's twat 'em, Ted.

 

[Mole]

Let's twat 'em, Ted.

Whom, Colmena, shall we twat?

Ted.

 

[alcea rosea]

Victor - what are you talking about?

 

[Mole]

Victor - what are you talking about?

If am talking about the hierarchy of abstraction.

How can I tell you what it is like?

Well, the concrete examples are like walking, while the abstractions are like dancing, and the abstraction of the abstraction is like dancing with a partner.

Does that make any sense?

 

[colmena]

My abstraction allows me to understand how best to live on a simple level.

Like how I want Ted to hold me; to rap his furry arms about my side, and lean his gullet next to mine.


It seems a round about way of getting somewhere our instincts should tell us to be.

 

[Mole]

My abstraction allows me to understand how best to live on a simple level.

Like how I want Ted to hold me; to rap his furry arms about my side, and lean his gullet next to mine.


It seems a round about way of getting somewhere our instincts should tell us to be.

Well, it's interesting, the higher you go up the abstraction tree the simpler it gets. It's the concrete that's complex.

And, by-the-way, I also have a teddy called, "Paddy O'Flaherty". I like to stroke and flick his fur - it seems to comfort me.

And I was talking to him the other day, and he said, "I hope you are being nice to Colmena".

And I said, "I don't know - you'll have to ask Colmena".

So Paddy wants to know if I am being nice to you.

Paddy says he doesn't like me going on with all this intellectual talk, he just likes to sit with me in front of the fire and hold him.

So I said to Paddy, "You sound a bit like Colmena".

"Do you think so?", he said.

"Yes", I replied.

Ted.

 

[Little Linguist]

Well, it's interesting, the higher you go up the abstraction tree the simpler it gets. It's the concrete that's complex.

And, by-the-way, I also have a teddy called, "Paddy O'Flaherty". I like to stroke and flick his fur - it seems to comfort me.

And I was talking to him the other day, and he said, "I hope you are being nice to Colmena".

And I said, "I don't know - you'll have to ask Colmena".

So Paddy wants to know if I am being nice to you.

Paddy says he doesn't like me going on with all this intellectual talk, he just likes to sit with me in front of the fire and hold him.

So I said to Paddy, "You sound a bit like Colmena".

"Do you think so?", he said.

"Yes", I replied.

Ted.

Ne distraction: HEY, someone else has a stuffed animal, too, and he's not an NF - that's great. Paddy should meet Bun-Bun!!!

Sorry, I will stay on track now.

As a teacher, let me offer some bits of advice. They may or may not be applicable since I teach foreign languages, but I thought it might help.

a) Change the methods you use frequently enough to be interesting.

--Use different kinds of media.
--Make sure you stick with one thing long enough to make sense.

b) Cater to the person's interest - if you make it applicable and interesting for them, it will seem less like learning.

c) Develop your intuition and your perception - you will "sense" when the time is right to change methods and to recognize which methods work.

d) Make it applicable - why does the person need this info? What is their goal? Tie the info to the goal, and it makes it more sensible.

e) Show interest - if the student realizes you are interested in more than the bottom line, they will be more willing to work with you. If you notice their attention is waning, find a discreet way to find the answer. Most people will answer you honestly (I find - but it might be a cultural difference here). I do not know how many times I have to be like a psychologist, simply because someone needs to talk to someone. They cannot focus because of problems they have. DO NOT PUSH, though. If they do not want to talk, leave them alone. Be open for the possibility, though.

f) Give examples rather than long explanations. Most people get lost - boil it down to the most fundamental issue.

g) Make games, if applicable. If people have fun, they do not even realize they are learning.

h) Augment the games with practice. If you only have fun, they will not learn effectively either.

i) Find out how the person learns best, and emphasize those methods in your teaching. You can often find this out through other means, such as interests the person has.

j) Have them talk more than you. If you talk too much, students zone out. Have them interact with others OR have them tell YOU things.

k) Make sure if they have understood by having them EXPLAIN it to YOU!!! Then you can see where the pitfalls are.

l) Have them do writing, reading, and things they can do at home AT HOME. Do things with them that they CANNOT do at home - makes them feel like coming to your lessons is worthwhile.

m) Concentrate on one thing at a time. If you try to tackle everything at once, people get lost.

n) LOVE WHAT YOU DO - How can you expect them to be interested if you look like, GOOD GOD WHEN CAN I GET OUTTA HERE??!?!

Hope that helps. Good luck!

 

[colmena]

"Yes", I replied.
Ted.

You sound the perfect pair. You will learn a lot from each other.

You have been exceedingly nice. You are the injection, and the serum is tenderness.

 

[Grayscale]

i dont think its a matter of sensory/intuition, just how youre explaining things.

whe people know is a lot like a web, if you're trying to explain something that the person has no way of relating to, then they might understand what you're saying in the simplest terms, but past that they're going to draw a blank.

to be an effective teacher, you need to find a way to tie in what you're saying to that persons' understanding, that is why analogies are so helpful. if you cant do that, then you need to be very literal and deliberate so that person can build up a web of the topic's relativity from scratch.


for instance, what if you were trying to explain color to a person who was blind their entire life? going off about shades and such isnt going to mean anything to them. you could, however, say it's a lot like the flavor of food, except in a visual sense... visual meaning the sense of things in front of you based on the light rays bouncing off of them and into your eyes. you could even say "what if you had to explain taste to someone?"... that person might understand that it's a sense a lot like their others and just as inexplicable, perhaps then they could at least imagine something similar.


teaching effectively is more about the teacher learning about the student than the student learning the subject matter. find a few things that person is interested in and read up on them so you can relate.