The ESFP "stupid" myth.

[prplchknz]

If an ESFP wants to tell me something of value, or better yet, let me tell them something of value, then I'll open up more; but until then, my attention remains focused elsewhere. You confuse me discounting other people with me not listening to them. I try to factor everyone's opinion, and I don't believe in destroying the rights of other people. We each deserve chances to be heard out and acknowledged, but some people (like general ESFPs) are less likely to have something or as much available for integration. They can do other things, like leading people, or throwing parties, and so forth.

Do you comprehend what you wrote in the last post? You pretty much said all ESFPs are the same, when people within types vary. Your thinking is very black and white, which is a hallmark of close mindeness. get some life experience, then maybe I'll believe your drivel.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Have you met an actual ESFP?

Yes - if my mom's correct, my 17 yeard old sister is an ESFP.

I suppose I can depict her attributes here vaguely: She's quite popular and good at managing large groups of people. She's very practical and knows what will or won't work. She is very interested in outward success, balances efficient completion of required tasks with having fun. She loves politics, and has very strong opinions not too subject for change.

 

[Azure Flame]

ESFP's are just as bad as ENFP's when it comes to Ti. The whole Ti world and concept of independent minded logic is something they ultimately do not, and will not ever completely understand. This in essence is what makes the come off or feel "stupid" whereas NTJ's, while Te dominant, still are very good at Ti albeit unconscious Ti. So they still generate theories in their own time.

So yes, one can argue that ESFP's are "stupid" much the same way ENFP's are. Though their intelligence shines in other areas. Their ability to read people is unmatched, their kinesthetic abilities are also second to none, and they can make very protective and strong willed allies, and their enthusiasm almost never dies. Compare them to INTJ's and INTP's, who are more weak willed with enthusiasm that is often toxic. ESFP's can take a typical pessimistic INTJ, put him on their shoulders, and take them for a ride through nyan-cat land.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Do you comprehend what you wrote in the last post? You pretty much said all ESFPs are the same, when people within types vary. Your thinking is very black and white, which is a hallmark of close mindeness. get some life experience, then maybe I'll believe your drivel.

You are free to believe whatever you wish; I'm just presenting my worldview - whether or not it's accurate is very open to debate.

You actually have a good point about me thinking in terms of absolutes, maybe that isn't holistic enough. Still, it fits my own observations and experience that ESFPs, in general, do those things.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

ESFPS aren't stupid, but I don't think they can understand me. Maybe they understand what they see on the surface, but can they understand my depths? I don't think so. That's not a criticism, because I don't really understand them.

But being understood is important to me. And being pitied is worthless to me. I don't think it is anyone's responsibility to fix me. If I think I need fixing, the only one who can really do that is myself.

In regards to black and white thinking, I'm a fan. I don't feel any particular desire or need to "evolve" past it. My Intuition can feed my Thinking, it doesn't need to exist at the expense of it.

I don't feel dead or hobbled when I use it, I feel invigorated and strengthened.

And there is nothing wrong with learning from experience, (Si) either. Not intrinsically, anyway.

 

[WALMART]

ESFPS aren't stupid, but I don't think they can understand me. Maybe they understand what they see on the surface, but can they understand my depths? I don't think so. That's not a criticism, because I don't really understand them.

Jung said Fi would say this

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Jung said Fi would say this

Not sure if serious, but is there a quote? I suppose "depths"' sounds rather "Fi" like, but what I mean by that is what's actually going on inside my head, not the stuff I let most people see. I mean, I'd like people to see it, but they aren't always as receptive or interested in it as I would hope. Especially if it contradicts their neat and simple value system.

Of course someone can "promise" that they'll be interested, but such promises are worthless.

 

[WALMART]

Not sure if serious, but is there a quote?

On my phone, but yes - he thought introverted feelers felt people rarely understood them. It's pretty early in the profile of Fi, but you definitely have to read the entire section on introverted rationality to get a good grasp of it. It's a reason I think intuition and feeling go hand in hand.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

On my phone, but yes - he thought introverted feelers felt people rarely understood them. It's pretty early in the profile of Fi, but you definitely have to read the entire section on introverted rationality to get a good grasp of it. It's a reason I think intuition and feeling go hand in hand.

I think Introverted Thinking, or Ti-Fe, can feel the same way, though. A lot of other INTPs would probably say the same thing if you could get them to stop bullshitting.

Hell, when someone insists they do understand me and I doubt that, I call their bluff, and ask them what they think I'm thinking, I get silence. Sometimes silence makes the loudest noise.

 

[Standuble]

I guess they are okay for practical matters but like all practical issues one question remains: What would the utilitarian purpose be for a practical person once we have armies of robots?

They are good at some creative areas but it is rooted in aesthetics - it looks good, it sounds good etc. It does not strike any deeper chords with me.

One thing that does bug me is what I call "the void silence" or "the unspoken thoughtlessness". When they stop speaking there is a unique sense of silence which when observed at the same time of their facial expression screams one thing to me: that their brains are barely operating and are struggling to generate enough ideas to even find something to say. I blame inferior Ni myself - a sad display of cogs very slowly turning. I can't really describe it but it is different from ISPs (which have a watered down form) and far different from N types. With N's you can tell there is much activity going on in their heads between sentences and statements.

This in essence is what makes the come off or feel "stupid" whereas NTJ's, while Te dominant, still are very good at Ti albeit unconscious Ti. So they still generate theories in their own time.

Or maybe it is because theories and theory formulation are N traits and Te allows them to use empirically backed logic to make sure it works. Believe it or not but NFPs are more than capable of creating theories, being insightful and working with ideas. ENFPs are not stupid like you claim. You really shouldn't be speaking about something you aren't mentally able to comprehend. In fact I don't know why you still post ideas here. I would be sceptical that anyone gives your views any weight.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Uh, practical people are needed, because they are, uh, practical.

 

[Stansmith]

I'm either completely blanking out, or thinking about/noticing random nuances that are either happening right in front of me, or based on whatever past information/concept pops up into my head.

 

[WALMART]

I think Introverted Thinking, or Ti-Fe, can feel the same way, though. A lot of other INTPs would probably say the same thing if you could get them to stop bullshitting.

Hell, when someone insists they do understand me and I doubt that, I call their bluff, and ask them what they think I'm thinking, I get silence. Sometimes silence makes the loudest noise.

Ti and Fi are substitutes, so they bleed together with fair regularity.

All I know is that when someone says people don't understand them, I wonder what they're doing wrong. I do the same to myself.

 

[Standuble]

Uh, practical people are needed, because they are, uh, practical.

But what about when we have robots???

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Ti and Fi are substitutes, so they bleed together with fair regularity.

All I know is that when someone says people don't understand them, I wonder what they're doing wrong. I do the same to myself.

Well, to be sure, there are things that I could do to help people to understand me. It isn't a one way street. I agree on that.

I do think that ESFPs might have an especially hard time of it, though. Especially since what is needed to listen is patience, and I'm not sure that ESFPs are inclined towards patience. This helps them in some ways, and hurts them in others.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

But what about when we have robots???

Who will fight them if they go rogue?

 

[garbage]

einstein genius fish climbing trees etc etc

or whatever

 

[Standuble]

Who will fight them if they go rogue?

The off switch? Only a moron or an internet troll would programme menial labour robots with combat sub-routines or creative capacity to use their tools as weapons. It would take an even bigger moron or an even bigger troll to make it so that they can't be shut off by remote control.

 

[WALMART]

Well, to be sure, there are things that I could do to help people to understand me. It isn't a one way street. I agree on that.

I do think that ESFPs might have an especially hard time of it, though. Especially since what is needed to listen is patience, and I'm not sure that ESFPs are inclined towards patience. This helps them in some ways, and hurts them in others.

I have a pretty textbook ESTP friend, we were out with a group talking about literature and he said "I don't read into what authors say. Someone will tell me, 'Well, the author meant this' and I'm like, 'well he should have said that then!"

I do think they're pretty forthcoming, they don't really beat around the bush, but their ability to intellectualize is in no way diminished simply because of their personality. I can't recall how many times he has subverted my explanation in fewer than ten words. At work, even regarding mental tasks, he was always two steps ahead me in finding an applicable solution.

And he isn't even dry! He has an insane amount of charisma and character.

So idk. I really envy Se types, it's just a shame hedonistic mindlessness is so simply correlated with them.

 

[brainheart]

The ESFP I know intimately

Loves Math. He had the highest grade in his Calc 3 class.

Is a software engineer. He is great at problem solving highly technical issues.

Is extremely likable and fun. Most people enjoy his company and he knows a wide range of people.

Has a highly developed emotional intelligence.

Can engage in sports activities without getting distracted by his thoughts and feelings. He is very good at staying in the moment.


It's true-

he doesn't like to discuss literature, philosophy, typology. But often he makes the most articulate observations about people that I've ever heard. He loves visual art and music. And he has a huge heart.

In many ways he is far more well-rounded and intelligent than I am.