Ted Bundy

[Nuttou]

I'd say Bundy was INFJ, not ENFJ or ENTP.

It's clear for me that he was no P. He was such a planner, extremely careful with the way he executed his crimes. It has nothing to do with the live-in-the-moment, impulsive ways of an ESTP. Also his response to that girl's rejection ("Stay calm, be patient, and plan revenge") sounds quite J to me - in fact it's the stereotype of the wounded INFJ angry with the world. Descriptions of him (quiet, private) put me more in mind of an introvert (though that isn't conclusive at all).

The Ni-Fe-Se combination is the best to figure people out and manipulate them, as he was doing with those girls. Inferior Se can notice all the small details in a person's appearance and behaviour (this is a mostly inconcious process however) and the dominant Ni will take all of this and put it together so as to form an accurate global picture of the person. Fe permits to understand people's feelings, and really to manipulate these feelings.
Ni-Fe-Se is also very useful to blend in in society or quickly adapt in a different social context, because it permits to 1) be aware of all the rules and expectations (Fe-Se), 2) form a picture in your head (Ni) and 3) project a fully formed image of yourself to the world (Ni-Fe). Ted Bundy was described by everyone as an extremely charming guy, a former good and intelligent student with a future in politics, whom nobody ever suspected capable of such horrible crimes (lots of people couldn't even believe it at first). This show how good he was at controlling how people viewed him.

I don't think he was ENFJ, because Ti doesn't sound at all like his inferior function. The easy way he used it to argue his point (or perhaps see the flaws in a plan, or think quickly of an escape, I don't know) would make me put it as his tertiary function, in a supportive role (for example I think he used Ti a lot in that last video we have of him, where he explained how pornography was what pushed him to do what he did). It makes more sense for Se to be his shadow, I think. INFJ, when unstable, have a tendency to fall back to their inferior Se, having ESTP moments. But as their Se is undeveloped (their weak point), it often takes the form of a more or less unhealthy ESTP, sensation seeking in a rather uncontrolled manner. It fits with the nature of Ted's crimes, all about lust. That monster inside him would be his shadow.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Yeah, but. This guy was abused likely from birth. Doubtful his aux or even dom functions developed properly, so I don't see how one could accurately rely on tert or inferior function theories to type him.

When I ESTP shadow, it's spontaneous and not calculated.

 

[Nuttou]

Yeah, but. This guy was abused likely from birth. Doubtful his aux or even dom functions developed properly, so I don't see how one could accurately rely on tert or inferior function theories to type him.

When I ESTP shadow, it's spontaneous and not calculated.

Actually he wasn't abused. He had some family problems - he grew up thinking his grandparents were his parents and his mother his sister, but otherwise had a relatively normal childhood.
I'm not sure why you assume his functions are so messed up as to be unrecognisable? He must have had a way to perceive the world and make judgement, introverted and extraverted, so functions and an operative functional order. He was able to think properly after all. Everyone who think has a type (= dominant, auxiliary, tertiary and inferior functions), and INFJ fits nicely.

And he was absolutely not in control of his ESTP-shadow thing either, which was the whole problem really. Some INFJ have a thing for cooking or art or architecture, he had a thing for something else, much darker and disgusting (because of pornography, or so he said).
You probably shouldn't compare him to yourself when trying to type him anyway, since you're a much more stable and healthy person than he was (I hope ), so you won't find him very relatable. I mean, if he is INFJ, he is one gone bad to an extreme degree. Probably the most horrible INFJ ever (even worst than Hitler).

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Actually he wasn't abused. He had some family problems - he grew up thinking his grandparents were his parents and his mother his sister, but otherwise had a relatively normal childhood.
I'm not sure why you assume his functions are so messed up as to be unrecognisable? He must have had a way to perceive the world and make judgement, introverted and extraverted, so functions and an operative functional order. He was able to think properly after all. Everyone who think has a type (= dominant, auxiliary, tertiary and inferior functions), and INFJ fits nicely.

And he was absolutely not in control of his ESTP-shadow thing either, which was the whole problem really. Some INFJ have a thing for cooking or art or architecture, he had a thing for something else, much darker and disgusting (because of pornography, or so he said).
You probably shouldn't compare him to yourself when trying to type him anyway, since you're a much more stable and healthy person than he was (I hope ), so you won't find him very relatable. I mean, if he is INFJ, he is one gone bad to an extreme degree. Probably the most horrible INFJ ever (even worst than Hitler).

Lol. Of course he was abused. It was rumored his gf was his father and was known to be very verbally and physically abusive. Just read wiki. And they raised him cause his mom was off her rocker somewhere. Til he was 4, then she moved him away. Who knows what kind of relationship they had? He was insanely jealous of his step-father apparently.

I'm convinced typing doesn't work very well on traumatized individuals because there are too many abnormal variables involved.

 

[Nuttou]

Lol. Of course he was abused. It was rumored his gf was his father and was known to be very verbally and physically abusive. Just read wiki. And they raised him cause his mom was off her rocker somewhere. Til he was 4, then she moved him away. Who knows what kind of relationship they had? He was insanely jealous of his step-father apparently.

The identity of his real father is unsure, but I've never read anywhere that it might have been his grandfather. It was probably Lloyd Marshall or Jack Worthington. Most sites just says his mother had an affair with some guy and her parents at first raised him as their own to avoid the shame of a having bastard.
Wikipedia does say his grandfather may have been a bully, though I remember reading otherwise on some other site. Ted left the house when he was three though, with his mom (who was raised as his older sister, not "off her rocker somewhere"). I've never read anywhere she was a bad mother.

Anyway, from Wikipedia: "In 1951 Louise met Johnny Culpepper Bundy, a hospital cook, at an adult singles night at Tacoma's First Methodist Church. They married later that year and Johnny Bundy formally adopted Ted. Johnny and Louise conceived four children of their own, and though Johnny Bundy tried to include his stepson in camping trips and other family activities, Ted remained distant from his stepfather. He later complained to his girlfriend that Johnny wasn't his real father, "wasn't very bright", and "didn't make much money.""
This doesn't sound like such an abusive environment.

FWIW, Ted Bundy himself insisted before being executed that he was raised in a healthy home and people shouldn't try to blame his family for what he became.

I'm convinced typing doesn't work very well on traumatized individuals because there are too many abnormal variables involved.

The greatest trauma in Ted's life seems to have been his first girlfriend rejection. Anyway, Ted was able to function quite normally in society: he seemed to be well liked by about everyone. This means his thinking process wasn't impaired, he was able to use all his functions (Pe - Pi - Ji- Je) in everyday life. So we can attempt to type him using what information we have on his behaviour and abilities.
You probably can't type a person with mental illness who is unable to think properly and interact with other people at all, but this isn't the case here.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

The identity of his real father is unsure, but I've never read anywhere that it might have been his grandfather. It was probably Lloyd Marshall or Jack Worthington. Most sites just says his mother had an affair with some guy and her parents at first raised him as their own to avoid the shame of a having bastard.
Wikipedia does say his grandfather may have been a bully, though I remember reading otherwise on some other site. Ted left the house when he was three though, with his mom (who was raised as his older sister, not "off her rocker somewhere"). I've never read anywhere she was a bad mother.

Anyway, from Wikipedia: "In 1951 Louise met Johnny Culpepper Bundy, a hospital cook, at an adult singles night at Tacoma's First Methodist Church. They married later that year and Johnny Bundy formally adopted Ted. Johnny and Louise conceived four children of their own, and though Johnny Bundy tried to include his stepson in camping trips and other family activities, Ted remained distant from his stepfather. He later complained to his girlfriend that Johnny wasn't his real father, "wasn't very bright", and "didn't make much money.""
This doesn't sound like such an abusive environment.

FWIW, Ted Bundy himself insisted before being executed that he was raised in a healthy home and people shouldn't try to blame his family for what he became.


The greatest trauma in Ted's life seems to have been his first girlfriend rejection. Anyway, Ted was able to function quite normally in society: he seemed to be well liked by about everyone. This means his thinking process wasn't impaired, he was able to use all his functions (Pe - Pi - Ji- Je) in everyday life. So we can attempt to type him using what information we have on his behaviour and abilities.
You probably can't type a person with mental illness who is unable to think properly and interact with other people at all, but this isn't the case here.

Whatevs. Why are you protecting him from having an incestuous and abusive background?

Serial killers are made in childhood. Not as adults, spurned or not.

 

[Thalassa]

The identity of his real father is unsure, but I've never read anywhere that it might have been his grandfather. It was probably Lloyd Marshall or Jack Worthington. Most sites just says his mother had an affair with some guy and her parents at first raised him as their own to avoid the shame of a having bastard.
Wikipedia does say his grandfather may have been a bully, though I remember reading otherwise on some other site. Ted left the house when he was three though, with his mom (who was raised as his older sister, not "off her rocker somewhere"). I've never read anywhere she was a bad mother.

Anyway, from Wikipedia: "In 1951 Louise met Johnny Culpepper Bundy, a hospital cook, at an adult singles night at Tacoma's First Methodist Church. They married later that year and Johnny Bundy formally adopted Ted. Johnny and Louise conceived four children of their own, and though Johnny Bundy tried to include his stepson in camping trips and other family activities, Ted remained distant from his stepfather. He later complained to his girlfriend that Johnny wasn't his real father, "wasn't very bright", and "didn't make much money.""
This doesn't sound like such an abusive environment.

FWIW, Ted Bundy himself insisted before being executed that he was raised in a healthy home and people shouldn't try to blame his family for what he became.


The greatest trauma in Ted's life seems to have been his first girlfriend rejection. Anyway, Ted was able to function quite normally in society: he seemed to be well liked by about everyone. This means his thinking process wasn't impaired, he was able to use all his functions (Pe - Pi - Ji- Je) in everyday life. So we can attempt to type him using what information we have on his behaviour and abilities.
You probably can't type a person with mental illness who is unable to think properly and interact with other people at all, but this isn't the case here.

No I wrote about Ted Bundy in a 25 page research paper I did on serial killers and psychopathy some weird things happened in his childhood; he probably, as an ExFJ 3, would feel obligated to say he was raised in a healthy home, perhaps for reasons of Fe love/respect for his family, perhaps for unhealthy 3 need to protect his image, but saying such a thing doesn't surprise me at all wit his personality type, whether his motive was benevolent toward his family or just a ruse to continue to pathetically try to paint his own image.

Here are some common statistical traits of serial killers:

1. They tend to come from unstable families.
2. As children, they are typically abandoned by their fathers and raised by domineering mothers.
3. Their families often have criminal, psychiatric and alcoholic histories.
4. They often are mistrustful of their parents.
5. It is common to find that as children, they were abused psychologically, physically and/or sexually
6. Many spend time in institutions as children and have records of early psychiatric problems.
7. They have high rates of suicide attempts.

Many are:
white male
aged 18-30
were violent to animals as kids
wet the bed often as kids right up until teens
Serial killers don't have a motive. They pop up out of nowhere then go on a rampage. A nobody who wants attention, albeit highly negative; casts the desired effect. The only reason they're caught is because they make dumb mistakes.

and here's part of my report that involved Ted Bundy:

Born to an unknown father, and a young mother named Elizabeth Cowell in the Elizabeth Lund Home for Unwed Mothers in Burlington, VA, Ted Bundy was initially raised by his maternal grandparents in Pennsylvania. Bundy’s grandfather was an abusive man who had strongly racist tendencies. Some of Bundy’s grandfather’s violence included beating and tormenting small animals or pets, and throwing Bundy’s aunt down the stairs one day for oversleeping. Young Ted showed disturbing personality traits at an extremely young age: the same aunt who had been thrown down the stairs awoke one day to a smiling three year old Ted Bundy surrounding her bed with kitchen knives.
Ted was eventually reunited with his mother, Louise, who married a man who formally adopted Ted, hence his change of last name from Cowell to Bundy. Ted was hostile to his step-father. As an adolescent, Bundy complained of being incapable of understanding social interactions and having no idea how to genuinely connect with his peers. However, he was able to maintain a superficial façade while at school. During this time Bundy was also extremely fascinated by pornography and depictions of gruesome sexual violence, including images of corpses, and would spy voyeuristically on neighborhood women undressing. He was also arrested twice for burglary and theft before he graduated from high school.

 

[Nuttou]

Whatevs. Why are you protecting him from having an incestuous and abusive background?

Serial killers are made in childhood. Not as adults, spurned or not.

Generally speaking, serial killers are serial killers because it's in their nature or because of a traumatic background (and such a trauma can probably also happen in adulthood). I happen to think Ted is the first case. Psychopaths exist and they are born that way. I'm absolutely not protecting him from anything, you're the one insisting he was abused without answering my arguments.

(Note: Being spurned by the woman of your life can absolutely led to murder. It has many time, though I'm not sure this is the case here. It may be part of it.)

 

[Thalassa]

(Note: Being spurned by the woman of your life can absolutely led to murder.)

Um that would be the understatement of the year in context of Ted Bundy. I cannot fathom you thinking that he did the things that he did (are you aware of the scope of his rape and murder and brutality, he didn't just snatch someone's panties or shoot some people in the dark, he was a fucking animal who collected body parts as trophies, laid traps for women, brutalized them with bedroom furniture, a real madman) because his college gf dumped him.

It shows a lack of reading about Ted Bundy, and actually a complete lack of psychological understanding of people.

 

[Nuttou]

No I wrote about Ted Bundy in a 25 page research paper I did on serial killers and psychopathy some weird things happened in his childhood; he probably, as an ExFJ 3, would feel obligated to say he was raised in a healthy home, perhaps for reasons of Fe love/respect for his family, perhaps for unhealthy 3 need to protect his image, but saying such a thing doesn't surprise me at all wit his personality type, whether his motive was benevolent toward his family or just a ruse to continue to pathetically try to paint his own image.

That's possible. I read the part of your report that you quoted, and it says about the same thing as Wikipedia. But as I said, Ted still left his grandfather's house at three, so I'm not sure this would have affected his personality a lot. Is there any evidence that Ted's new home (with his stepfather) was dysfunctional? From the wiki, it sounds like his stepfather tried to make him part of the family.
And I think the reasons he did all these weird things as a child is because he is a psychopath. Here is a very interesting article on psychopath children. It fits what we know of Ted, so I think we don't need an unhealthy childhood environment to explain his behaviour.

Anyway, you seem to agree with me that we can type him, since you did so yourself Why ENFJ rather than INFJ? Have you read my first post in this thread? I really think Ni-Fe-Ti-Se fits him really well.

 

[Nuttou]

Um that would be the understatement of the year in context of Ted Bundy. I cannot fathom you thinking that he did the things that he did (are you aware of the scope of his rape and murder and brutality, he didn't just snatch someone's panties or shoot some people in the dark, he was a fucking animal who collected body parts as trophies, laid traps for women, brutalized them with bedroom furniture, a real madman) because his college gf dumped him.

It shows a lack of reading about Ted Bundy, and actually a complete lack of psychological understanding of people.

OF COURSE he didn't do the things he did because his girlfriend dumped him. I think he is a psychopath, as I said, and an addict to pornography. No, it was more the fact that he focused on young pretty girls that looked like her that I think may have been in part because of that event.

Sorry for not being more specific, my point was only that crimes in general have been committed because a rejection, in response to AphroditeGoneAwry. The "I'm not sure this is the case here" is really an understatement!

 

[Thalassa]

That's possible. I read the part of your report that you quoted, and it says about the same thing as Wikipedia. But as I said, Ted still left his grandfather's house at three, so I'm not sure this would have affected his personality a lot. Is there any evidence that Ted's new home (with his stepfather) was dysfunctional? From the wiki, it sounds like his stepfather tried to make him part of the family.
And I think the reasons he did all these weird things as a child is because he is a psychopath. Here is a very interesting article on psychopath children. It fits what we know of Ted, so I think we don't need an unhealthy childhood environment to explain his behaviour.

Anyway, you seem to agree with me that we can type him, since you did so yourself Why ENFJ rather than INFJ? Have you read my first post in this thread? I really think Ni-Fe-Ti-Se fits him really well.

Yes, the personality ego and all of that is formed by age six. By age four - when he actually moved away - he had already experienced plenty, apparently. It takes a perfect storm of genetic disposition and circumstance to create someone like Ted Bundy. Psychopathy is a combination of both genes and environment.

I agree with you he's an FJ. I don't know, I'll look at it later, I'm too tired right now, but I'm sure I'll be interested at some point in the near future.

 

[Nuttou]

Yes, the personality ego and all of that is formed by age six. By age four - when he actually moved away - he had already experienced plenty, apparently. It takes a perfect storm of genetic disposition and circumstance to create someone like Ted Bundy. Psychopathy is a combination of both genes and environment.

You may be right here. It seemed to me psychopath could arise even from healthy environment, but I'm willing to concede the point.
(PS: Wikipedia says it was age three: "For the first three years of his life Bundy lived in the Philadelphia home of his maternal grandparents". Lets go for three and a half! )

I agree with you he's an FJ. I don't know, I'll look at it later, I'm too tired right now, but I'm sure I'll be interested at some point in the near future.

Whenever you feel like it!

 

[Mal12345]

You may be right here. It seemed to me psychopath could arise even from healthy environment, but I'm willing to concede the point.

But didn't you cite this page earlier in the thread?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html

Michael is a diagnosed psychopath child who was raised in a normal environment by a mother with a degree in child psychology.

You give in too easily, Nuttou.

 

[Nuttou]

But didn't you cite this page earlier in the thread?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html

Michael is a diagnosed psychopath child who was raised in a normal environment by a mother with a degree in child psychology.

You give in too easily, Nuttou.

Haha! True! I actually was thinking of him when I said that. The thing is, I don't think there is proof that Ted was abused, and his mother and stepfather's home sounds perfectly normal, but if people say the fact he was exposed to a violent individual up until age three can be psychologically damaging, I don't really have the means to argue with them. Three years old seems too young to me to have a lasting effect, but what can I say? So yeah.

 

[Mal12345]

Haha! True! I actually was thinking of him when I said that. The thing is, I don't think there is proof that Ted was abused, and his mother and stepfather's home sounds perfectly normal, but if people say the fact he was exposed to a violent individual up until age three can be psychologically damaging, I don't really have the means to argue with them. Three years old seems too young to me to have a lasting effect, but what can I say? So yeah.

The argument didn't only have to do with Bundy, but with extrapolating his case to that of all psychopaths. It's a non sequitur to say that, because Ted Bundy was raised around a violent individual that, therefore, all psychopaths have to be raised in abnormal environments. One case history does not indicate a pattern for all such cases.

 

[Nuttou]

The argument didn't only have to do with Bundy, but with extrapolating his case to that of all psychopaths. It's a non sequitur to say that, because Ted Bundy was raised around a violent individual that, therefore, all psychopaths have to be raised in abnormal environments. One case history does not indicate a pattern for all such cases.

Was that what Marmotini was saying? Anyway, I agree with you. Michael can be considered proof (though he didn't kill anyone yet).

 

[Mal12345]

Was that what Marmotini was saying? Anyway, I agree with you. Michael can be considered proof (though he didn't kill anyone yet).

I read the entire article you posted. Michael's father was a wild child too, but by the time adulthood came along he had worked on changing himself "from the outside in." Psychopathic children have an almost 50/50 chance of growing up to become psychopaths. Michael reminds me of Stewie Griffin, who grew up to be a normal, benign adult working at a video store. Yes I know it's only a cartoon.

 

[Nuttou]

I read the entire article you posted. Michael's father was a wild child too, but by the time adulthood came along he had worked on changing himself "from the outside in." Psychopathic children have an almost 50/50 chance of growing up to become psychopaths. Michael reminds me of Stewie Griffin, who grew up to be a normal, benign adult working at a video store. Yes I know it's only a cartoon.

When Michael's father said he was a "wild child", I took it as meaning just that, that he was wild, but not necessarily psychopathic. I though he was just trying to cling to hope.
The tricky thing about psychopaths is that they can blend in society so that they seem normal. I'm not sure if these children really grow to be more empathetic, or if they just learn how to conduct themselves in society and become high functioning psychopath (not all of them are murderer after all).

The character the article makes me think of is Joffrey Baratheon, from the book A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin. This passage above all:
"In some children, C.U. traits manifest in obvious ways. Paul Frick, a psychologist at the University of New Orleans who has studied risk factors for psychopathy in children for two decades, described one boy who used a knife to cut off the tail of the family cat bit by bit, over a period of weeks. The boy was proud of the serial amputations, which his parents initially failed to notice. “When we talked about it, he was very straightforward,” Frick recalls. “He said: ‘I want to be a scientist, and I was experimenting. I wanted to see how the cat would react.’ ”
In another famous case, a 9-year-old boy named Jeffrey Bailey pushed a toddler into the deep end of a motel swimming pool in Florida. As the boy struggled and sank to the bottom, Bailey pulled up a chair to watch. Questioned by the police afterward, Bailey explained that he was curious to see someone drown. When he was taken into custody, he seemed untroubled by the prospect of jail but was pleased to be the center of attention."
My father also knew a boy (probably a psychopath) who liked to kill cats in horrible ways, but he doesn't know what he has become.

 

[Mal12345]

When Michael's father said he was a "wild child", I took it as meaning just that, that he was wild, but not necessarily psychopathic. I though he was just trying to cling to hope.
The tricky thing about psychopaths is that they can blend in society so that they seem normal. I'm not sure if these children really grow to be more empathetic, or if they just learn how to conduct themselves in society and become high functioning psychopath (not all of them are murderer after all).

The character the article makes me think of is Joffrey Baratheon, from the book A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin. This passage above all:
"In some children, C.U. traits manifest in obvious ways. Paul Frick, a psychologist at the University of New Orleans who has studied risk factors for psychopathy in children for two decades, described one boy who used a knife to cut off the tail of the family cat bit by bit, over a period of weeks. The boy was proud of the serial amputations, which his parents initially failed to notice. “When we talked about it, he was very straightforward,” Frick recalls. “He said: ‘I want to be a scientist, and I was experimenting. I wanted to see how the cat would react.’ ”
In another famous case, a 9-year-old boy named Jeffrey Bailey pushed a toddler into the deep end of a motel swimming pool in Florida. As the boy struggled and sank to the bottom, Bailey pulled up a chair to watch. Questioned by the police afterward, Bailey explained that he was curious to see someone drown. When he was taken into custody, he seemed untroubled by the prospect of jail but was pleased to be the center of attention."
My father also knew a boy (probably a psychopath) who liked to kill cats in horrible ways, but he doesn't know what he has become.

Since diagnosing children as psychopaths is an ability only recently discovered, we can't say what Michael's father was as a child. But there is at least an intuitive case for showing that psychopathy runs in the family. For example, the case has been made that Bundy's grandfather and father are the same person based on his behavior.


Psychopaths can't learn emotional empathy, but they can learn cognitive empathy.

Is the article actually saying that the police threw a 9 yo boy in jail?

Edit - according to the article, "One study calculated the heritability of callous-unemotional traits at 80 percent."