[MBTI General] INTP-ENFP Relationships: a few observations

[Poki]

I'm fairly certain you missed my overarching point.

U mean I didnt prove it?

 

[Uytuun]

U mean I didnt prove it?

No, you made an excellent case for my point in a way.

What did you think my point was?

 

[Poki]

No, you made an excellent case for my point in a way.

What did you think my point was?

Thats what I just said

You had a point? I was just trying to create some type of truth in regard to the whole thing. I wasnt trying to prove your "point" wrong.

 

[Uytuun]

Thats what I just said

You also showed how Ti users fail to engage INTJs on our own terms (by simply not engaging with my point about the INTPs (TPs in general perhaps) not being open to INTJs and how this could have a detrimental effect when it comes to fully understanding something).

Anyway, sorry for being so difficult, but some days I feel particularly iconoclastic wrt Ti usurpation and condescension (it's connected to Fe somehow) . In French people would say "je ne le supporte plus".

 

[Poki]

You also showed how Ti users fail to engage INTJs on our own terms (by simply not engaging with my point about the INTPs (TPs in general perhaps) not being open to INTJs and how this could have a detrimental effect when it comes to fully understanding something).

Anyway, sorry for being so difficult, but some days I feel particularly iconoclastic wrt Ti usurpation and condescension.

On your own terms? You lost me with this whole "our own terms" and "engaging my point of view". I thought this was about Oro and INTPs? You are just merely a side show of the main topic

edit: sorry, that whole side show thing was uncalled for

 

[Uytuun]

On your own terms? You lost me with this whole "our own terms" and "engaging my point of view". I thought this was about Oro and INTPs? You are just merely a side show of the main topic

Ah you sly fox. You sicken me.

 

[uumlau]

INTJ systemic integrity is due to the fact that it relies on Ni frameworks and lack of consistent frameworks would cause issue with how a dom Ni views the world. IxTPs may need a little systemic freedom, but its actually a half a wave length prior to that. We have no problems with systemic integrity, but we need "true" systemic integrity. IxTJs would be fine with systemic consistancy, not quite so much integrity. Difference between Aux Te and Inferior Fe.

Ni doesn't lack a consistent framework. Its consistency is merely invisible to others (often even other Ni types). Why do you think you perceive IJ's as holding onto "beliefs" in spite of the evidence, as you say? You notice the consistency when you don't like it or cannot reason with it.

Really, the problem is that the Ni perception is in a different "space", and sees different "evidence." A reciprocal problem exists for Ti doms: they have a great deal of logical self-consistency, but it relies upon its own "Ti-space" and its own understandings, which aren't easily conveyed in a few short sentences. It's possible to map the two to each other, and understand (and even agree) with each others' final conclusions ... with the caveat that each is going to regard the others' methods as "too much work", because each is predisposed to think differently. A successful such conversation often ends with the phrase, "Well, why didn't you say so in the first place?" The actual ideas are often trivial, mere building blocks, but because the building blocks are different from one's own, it's easy to insist that the other's building blocks are "wrong."

All of the introverted functions appear "stubborn" to others in this regard: they reflect the inner understandings that comprise nearly the entirety of one's life experience. One does not just simply change those because someone else says you're wrong; they require time and reflection, and don't respond well to being rushed.

 

[Poki]

Ni doesn't lack a consistent framework. Its consistency is merely invisible to others (often even other Ni types). Why do you think you perceive IJ's as holding onto "beliefs" in spite of the evidence, as you say? You notice the consistency when you don't like it or cannot reason with it.

Really, the problem is that the Ni perception is in a different "space", and sees different "evidence." A reciprocal problem exists for Ti doms: they have a great deal of logical self-consistency, but it relies upon its own "Ti-space" and its own understandings, which aren't easily conveyed in a few short sentences. It's possible to map the two to each other, and understand (and even agree) with each others' final conclusions ... with the caveat that each is going to regard the others' methods as "too much work", because each is predisposed to think differently. A successful such conversation often ends with the phrase, "Well, why didn't you say so in the first place?" The actual ideas are often trivial, mere building blocks, but because the building blocks are different from one's own, it's easy to insist that the other's building blocks are "wrong."

All of the introverted functions appear "stubborn" to others in this regard: they reflect the inner understandings that comprise nearly the entirety of one's life experience. One does not just simply change those because someone else says you're wrong; they require time and reflection, and don't respond well to being rushed.

I never said Ni lacks a consistant framework...i said that Ni needs a consistant framework or they would have problems. Do u have problems? Ni's frameworks are far from invisible..what Ni tends to hide is purpose, not framework. This purpose is then projected onto others. Ni Framework is actually very visible as thats what they use all the time. Sometimes they get stuck on a framework though as they need that consistancy.

Actually me and INTJs disagree alot. Its actually a reason why we work good together. We share Ni though so we can actually communicate on the same plane of frameworks. I have no issues with lack of agreance, i see it as a positive thing. How its handled determines whether its healthy or not. Growing up with an INTJ, we never used the phrase "why didnt u say so in the first place" or anything even remotely close. That never even crossed my mind, we had a simple goal of bouncing frameworks off of each other. The goal was fixing the problem and we each had our own 2 cents, we each respected the others framework as something willing to try...the right one was what "actually" fixed or provided a solution.

But when it comes to "life and living" we split ways. My guess is i have Aux Se and his is Inferior. I am also not an emotional person, he is.

Do u realize your Ni framework is personal and doesnt always apply outside of your own mind. I can project Ti onto the world, but i realize its personal. Its part of what makes me who i am and its the reason why i have the "live and let live" attitude. Its also why i actually listen to others and remain open to what matters to them and try to actually be objective outside of my own logic and thoughts. I have never wanted someone to think like me or be like me and have that type of connection.

 

[rav3n]

I am going to grab a post by [MENTION=10808]Jenaphor[/MENTION] as well-but-how can you trust the one data point not to be anamolous? How do you know that particular Se point is the one that matters? How do you trust it over the others? What distinguishes it from the others?

Ni synthesis includes extraction from internal databases so it's not as if Se's data are the only points of relevance and reference.

But I do have to toss the question back to you. How does anyone know that their "conclusions" or "judgments" are accurate and trustworthy, regardless of functions utilised, especially considering how a substantial component of empathy is a projection of our internal lenses?

 

[Poki]

Ni synthesis includes extraction from internal databases so it's not as if Se's data are the only points of relevance and reference.

But I do have to toss the question back to you. How does anyone know that their "conclusions" or "judgments" are accurate and trustworthy, regardless of functions utilised, especially considering how a substantial component of empathy is a projection of our internal lenses?

The other substantial component of empathy is judgement, so even if lenses are identical, our judgement may not be. Thats a part of us being irrational. Its why 2 people can see the exact same thing and come to different conclusions. Not everyone holds the thought that...if they can just see my point of view they will agree with me and also come to the same conclusion..

 

[rav3n]

Not everyone holds the thought that...if they can just see my point of view they will agree with me and also come to the same conclusion..

How is this relevant?

 

[Poki]

How is this relevant?

Because that is when u are not open to outside data points, but are focused in getting the other to see through your lense. Someone who holds that thought wants group mentality...u think like i think...they ignore Se for the sake of internal points.

Reminds me of viking leader in "how to kill a dragon".

 

[rav3n]

Because that is when u are not open to outside data points, but are focused in getting the other to see through your lense. Someone who holds that thought wants group mentality...u think like i think...they ignore Se for the sake of internal points.

Reminds me of viking leader in "how to kill a dragon".

As an ESTP, with Se/Fe, it's not surprising that your personal lens is external. As an ENTJ, my functions attempt to balance both.

 

[Poki]

As an ESTP, with Se/Fe, it's not surprising that your personal lens is external. As an ENTJ, my functions attempt to balance both.

Yes, your Te function attempts to balance all others. An ESTP uses Se as an attempt to balance all others. I was more speaking to Ni, Si dom where there internal perception attempts to balance hence its not natural to take into account alot of external data points through Se or Ne and it tends to overwhelm.

 

[sculpting]

Ni synthesis includes extraction from internal databases so it's not as if Se's data are the only points of relevance and reference.

But I do have to toss the question back to you. How does anyone know that their "conclusions" or "judgments" are accurate and trustworthy, regardless of functions utilised, especially considering how a substantial component of empathy is a projection of our internal lenses?

Well, I think we each develop confidence in how we judge the world, by spending our entire lives using that worldview and recognizing the most common errors it gives rise to. Every single day, this dominant worldview is feeding us perceptions and decisions that we mull over and process. All of this practice makes us very, very good at seeing the world with those tools and we become very effective at using them.

My initial question regarding Se wasn’t questioning effectiveness of Se-rather just questioning what it feels like and how various Se points are evaluated for importance. (Having no Se, some of most terrible errors of judgment arise if I take a single event and react to it, without weighing it against consistency of the observed event in my past. Ne will actually take the isolated Se data point and then explode outwards into many (often totally bonkers) possibilities.)

On a side note-the INTJs do very well with their NiTeSe decisions and most grow to be quite rigorous in standards they apply to themselves and in screening the patterns and Ni-Se events for proper weighting in logical or emperical analysis. However many INTJ males I have observed will project the weird oddities of their past relationships forward onto their current relationships. The issues in those past relationships will be trigger points in their current relationships which cause very detrimental course alterations, if not corrected quickly, via awareness and increased communication. I suspect this is due to very limited NiFiSe patterns, given their reluctance to jump off cliffs into new relationships, thus limited experience to build patterns from.

Thus-the short answer-experience making a type of judgement does not gaurentee success but it does give better odds.

 

[Istbkleta]

Well, I think we each develop confidence in how we judge the world, by spending our entire lives using that worldview and recognizing the most common errors it gives rise to. Every single day, this dominant worldview is feeding us perceptions and decisions that we mull over and process. All of this practice makes us very, very good at seeing the world with those tools and we become very effective at using them.

Then we discover type theory and realize how wrong we've been all along

The world is neither a place of infinite possibilities, nor a mechanical mechanism where every causal relation can be examined and understood. Nor is it a place where people look out for each other and take their neighbour's best interest to heart. Nor are people self-contained intelligent individuals who make free-will decisions with full awareness and are responsible for them.

Is this what they call maturity?

 

[Poki]

On a side note-the INTJs do very well with their NiTeSe decisions and most grow to be quite rigorous in standards they apply to themselves and in screening the patterns and Ni-Se events for proper weighting in logical or emperical analysis. However many INTJ males I have observed will project the weird oddities of their past relationships forward onto their current relationships. The issues in those past relationships will be trigger points in their current relationships which cause very detrimental course alterations, if not corrected quickly, via awareness and increased communication. I suspect this is due to very limited NiFiSe patterns, given their reluctance to jump off cliffs into new relationships, thus limited experience to build patterns from.

Thus-the short answer-experience making a type of judgement does not gaurentee success but it does give better odds.

I see this in everyone across different types.

 

[sculpting]

I wanted to return to this thread to seek guidance on an issue that I often saw come up with my ISTP. I also see this same issue with my ENFP friend who was with an INTP, and have noted other ENFPs mention it as well in interactions with INTP family members-thus I think it is a IXTP characteristic.

I dunno what to call it exactly…cranky Ti? In my ISTP it comes across as extreme bitterness and grouchiness, resentment. It isn’t as a result of anything I do in particular, more just moodiness it seems, but while he is in this mood, if I make any requests, I get a scathing cold shoulder and am made to feel like crap. This was the single biggest issue in our marriage. When I encountered it, I want to yell and as it is so frustrating, but I always understood this would be nonproductive, so I just withdrew and ignored the behavior and just took responsibility for things myself, rather than deal with it.

Latest Example-

Our 4 yo son is diabetic. We have had a hard time tracking his carb intake and insulin intake on paper, as the sheets keep getting lost or the notebook gets forgotten as he shifts from house to house.

I found an rather expensive glucose meter that tracks blood glucose, but also allows you to enter carbs, specify the meal, specify the type of insulin given and the amount given. It tracks time of each event. Then you plug it into a PC and download all of the data at once into a program that allows for analysis of the data. (This sort of analysis is extremely important in understanding how a diabetic is responding to dosages of insulin and what types of foods impact blood glucose the fastest. It allows for tighter control of blood glucose in the long run, which reduces damage to the eyes, kidneys and peripheral nerves)

So this morning I showed the ISTP the meter-he got really irritable and said “there is no way I am doing this. I have to work a full time job, take care of a new born baby, take care of a diabetic four year old and I am not going to do this”.

I said “It requires four extra buttons to be pushed and takes ten seconds…” He then started slamming things around and being very cold. I said nothing and just watched him mess with it for a bit, then left.

The feelings this behavior invokes in me:

1) guilt that I have unfairly burdened another with extra work and made them unhappy, hurt/sadness/remorse and wondering what I can do to make things better….

2) followed promptly by a rebound anger-frustration (FUCK THIS) that he is making me feel bad over such a small task I have asked him to do, that is so important to our son’s health.

3) Then I proceed to get even more frustrated as I go over all the things I have to do everyday, due to his not being accountable or responsible enough to do them himself. (ie paying all of my daycare myself as he has too much debt to contribute child support, working two jobs and going to college as a single mom and missing a big part of my older son’s life after he left us as “he wasn’t ready to be a father”, getting up every night at 1 am to check my son’s blood sugar for the next five years, clawing my way out of a white trash future as a single mom, as I knew it was what I had to do for my kid to give him a good future, going to all of my kid’s dr and school appts, as he whines his way out of them, getting stuck with almost all of the debt when our relationship ended.…)

I do recognize that I am projecting my own immature, partially developed Te value judgments on him –ie (why cant you just be more responsible and accountable…like I had to learn to be??).

I also recognize that I am provoking his Ti in an odd way by requesting he do extra work in a predefined manner-ie (This is what you need to do…because it is the best answer to solve the problem.)

Questions:
What is the best, most productive way to deal with this Ti bitterness?

Assuming I am not the root cause, how can I interact productively with it when I happen to stumble into it?

Additionally, how can I make very direct requests for things I do need him to take ownership of, without him feeling like I am bossing him around and then getting resentful?

Thanks!

 

[Poki]

What is the best, most productive way to deal with this Ti bitterness?

I dont know the best productive way...but be forceful. He is his father, he is stuck in his head with everything he has to do. Once he actually does it and realizes its easy it shouldnt be a problem. He is overwhelmed right now.

Assuming I am not the root cause, how can I interact productively with it when I happen to stumble into it?
Additionally, how can I make very direct requests for things I do need him to take ownership of, without him feeling like I am bossing him around and then getting resentful?

Hope someone can help you on these 2. I am huge on ownership and I would struggle with others as well in regard to this.

I feel bad for his new baby as well as he obviously cant handle kids

 

[INTP]

I wanted to return to this thread to seek guidance on an issue that I often saw come up with my ISTP. I also see this same issue with my ENFP friend who was with an INTP, and have noted other ENFPs mention it as well in interactions with INTP family members-thus I think it is a IXTP characteristic.

I dunno what to call it exactly…cranky Ti? In my ISTP it comes across as extreme bitterness and grouchiness, resentment. It isn’t as a result of anything I do in particular, more just moodiness it seems, but while he is in this mood, if I make any requests, I get a scathing cold shoulder and am made to feel like crap. This was the single biggest issue in our marriage. When I encountered it, I want to yell and as it is so frustrating, but I always understood this would be nonproductive, so I just withdrew and ignored the behavior and just took responsibility for things myself, rather than deal with it.

Latest Example-

Our 4 yo son is diabetic. We have had a hard time tracking his carb intake and insulin intake on paper, as the sheets keep getting lost or the notebook gets forgotten as he shifts from house to house.

I found an rather expensive glucose meter that tracks blood glucose, but also allows you to enter carbs, specify the meal, specify the type of insulin given and the amount given. It tracks time of each event. Then you plug it into a PC and download all of the data at once into a program that allows for analysis of the data. (This sort of analysis is extremely important in understanding how a diabetic is responding to dosages of insulin and what types of foods impact blood glucose the fastest. It allows for tighter control of blood glucose in the long run, which reduces damage to the eyes, kidneys and peripheral nerves)

So this morning I showed the ISTP the meter-he got really irritable and said “there is no way I am doing this. I have to work a full time job, take care of a new born baby, take care of a diabetic four year old and I am not going to do this”.

I said “It requires four extra buttons to be pushed and takes ten seconds…” He then started slamming things around and being very cold. I said nothing and just watched him mess with it for a bit, then left.

The feelings this behavior invokes in me:

1) guilt that I have unfairly burdened another with extra work and made them unhappy, hurt/sadness/remorse and wondering what I can do to make things better….

2) followed promptly by a rebound anger-frustration (FUCK THIS) that he is making me feel bad over such a small task I have asked him to do, that is so important to our son’s health.

3) Then I proceed to get even more frustrated as I go over all the things I have to do everyday, due to his not being accountable or responsible enough to do them himself. (ie paying all of my daycare myself as he has too much debt to contribute child support, working two jobs and going to college as a single mom and missing a big part of my older son’s life after he left us as “he wasn’t ready to be a father”, getting up every night at 1 am to check my son’s blood sugar for the next five years, clawing my way out of a white trash future as a single mom, as I knew it was what I had to do for my kid to give him a good future, going to all of my kid’s dr and school appts, as he whines his way out of them, getting stuck with almost all of the debt when our relationship ended.…)

I do recognize that I am projecting my own immature, partially developed Te value judgments on him –ie (why cant you just be more responsible and accountable…like I had to learn to be??).

I also recognize that I am provoking his Ti in an odd way by requesting he do extra work in a predefined manner-ie (This is what you need to do…because it is the best answer to solve the problem.)

Questions:
What is the best, most productive way to deal with this Ti bitterness?

Assuming I am not the root cause, how can I interact productively with it when I happen to stumble into it?

Additionally, how can I make very direct requests for things I do need him to take ownership of, without him feeling like I am bossing him around and then getting resentful?

Thanks!

This isnt some Ti dom thing, but some immature retard thing..