[INTJ] INTJ sister.

[cafe]

Well, um, they apparently wanted a boy, and, um, I was a second child (so they relaxed on me). Therefore I was allowed a little bit more. Well, I suppose, in her eyes, a lot more. Worse yet, I was without restraints she had, and would take it all and ask for more, whereas she would be too shy and modest to ask same things? As a child, I had no problem nagging for money, for ice cream or gum or soda or what not. What's worse, I was persistent and pretty much undeterred by initial request denials. I'd keep asking for something and eventually I got what I wanted, even if only to get rid of me, or because I was favorite. For instance, we had an old bike that was broken and no one used, and it just sat there. I'm sure she asked dad to fix it few times, but he probably was too busy and forgot all the time. It did not matter to me, since I didn't know how to ride it. However, one summer vacation, I learned to ride a bicycle. When I came back from vacation and saw that "hey, we got a broken bicycle" I nagged dad daily, sometimes twice a day to fix it. He would come home and hear "Have you fixed the bike yet?" He tried to stay strong, but after three months he was annoyed enough to fix it. I wonder how she felt when the bike got fixed for me, but not her. Whatever the case, I'm pretty sure that all this has had some impact on her, her who would never ask for money in the first place or much less nag for something.

That's just a pretty normal first born/last born sibling dynamics. My husband felt like that with his little sister. I felt like that with my little brother. My daughter (and I definitely wanted a girl) feels like that with her brothers, and to a lesser degree, her sister. Some siblings keep that thing going forever. Some let it go eventually.

 

[rainfall]

That's just a pretty normal first born/last born sibling dynamics. My husband felt like that with his little sister. I felt like that with my little brother. My daughter (and I definitely wanted a girl) feels like that with her brothers, and to a lesser degree, her sister. Some siblings keep that thing going forever. Some let it go eventually.

I don't really wanna fight or prove anything. But, if I absolutely have to, or if I lose it and finally get mad and give in to it, I will be a thousand times meaner about it than she is. Worst part is, I'll feel guilty after.

I think you'd first have to think what you want from your relationship with your sister. To improve it, to maintain a minimal, typical relationship, to deal with her even if this means to destroy whatever relation you have?

Pretty angry at her at the moment to really do anything with her. I don't even like being near her, even if she is just in next room.

From the way you're picturing her, I'd say that, weren't she your sister, you'd totally avoid this person. Which makes me think that you should give up trying to have any relation with her and treat her like some random acquaintance.

Yes, was she not related, I don't see myself talking to her ever again.

A sibling has to respect you just as every other person does, and a sibling that does not respect you should be treated as you treat every other person who doesn't.

Earlier I was asked what bothers me, and this is it. She treats me with disrespect, yet demands that I respect her. I think she thinks that I should be humble due to my personal failures. <anger>

Funny, but over the years all this drama has lessened my opinion of her, and I've never ever seen her as an equal since. How much respect can you gather for someone who gets off on defeating someone way younger than them? If you're glad you managed to beat someone 6 years younger than you, what does that say about you? And what's worse, as I become bigger than she could ever be, she only seems to want to thwart my progress. I don't need this.

Now if you are looking for advice on how to built a good relationship with an INTJ, hopefully somebody else could offer you some.

I just don't know anymore. Like, if she really starts lecturing me ever again, I just might lose it and say or do something that I might regret later.

 

[white]

time out?

is there anyway you could say, bunk in with a friend for a week or so, or go on a short drive to visit a friend a little way out, while you think through your options?

 

[rainfall]

time out?

is there anyway you could say, bunk in with a friend for a week or so, or go on a short drive to visit a friend a little way out, while you think through your options?

No real need, at the moment. I've been ignoring her for a while, and then I tried to make my peace with her. I haven't seen her for a few days and it's been quiet so far.

Can of worms...

Thankfully, most of the time I am not reminded of her, I'm fine. Unfortunately, she sometimes comes down to chat with parents.

 

[Wolf]

FWIW, my INTJ daughter is capable of behavior that is close to what rainfall is describing. She gripes about her spoiled younger siblings already and would probably be worse if she thought it would fly. She works hard and follows the rules and she expects everyone else to do the same and to carry their weight. If they do not, she holds them in contempt to some degree. It's not that she hates them or she's evil, she just has high expectations for herself and for others.

Rule following is not one of our long suits, and we wouldn't care much if someone else was unless it was directly impacting us. We're aware of them, but we only follow them when they are helpful to us, and we readily break them if they're not. Sounds rather ISTJ-ish, actually.

Our high expectations tend to be intellectual ones, not rule-following ones.


On the original subject:
Sounds like some kind of disorder or mistyping. INTJs don't care about things like formal education and rule following (as noted above). The only reason we tend to do well in school is because we're usually above-average in intelligence and following along is expedient.

 

[cafe]

Rule following is not one of our long suits, and we wouldn't care much if someone else was unless it was directly impacting us. We're aware of them, but we only follow them when they are helpful to us, and we readily break them if they're not. Sounds rather ISTJ-ish, actually.

She could be an ISTJ, but neither my husband nor I are SJs and we are both rule followers by default. We aren't totally unwilling to break them, but we do it with thought and caution. I don't know if it's an our family thing or if it's a firstborn thing or what.

Our high expectations tend to be intellectual ones, not rule-following ones.

What about expectations for personal responsibility?

 

[Wolf]

She could be an ISTJ, but neither my husband nor I are SJs and we are both rule followers by default. We aren't totally unwilling to break them, but we do it with thought and caution. I don't know if it's an our family thing or if it's a firstborn thing or what.

How about enforcement?

What about expectations for personal responsibility?

Please define and provide an example or two.


As long as it doesn't impact me, their follies are not my concern. I might advise them if they were interested in learning and help/facilitate implementation if they need it, but that's about all.

 

[Metamorphosis]

Not caring about rules is not the same thing as refusing to follow them. If more is to be gained from following the rules than from disobeying them, then an INTJ will follow them, in my experience. This is why many INTJs are not that rebellious. We don't rebel for the sake of rebellion.

 

[zarc]

^ Agreed. I was going to remark earlier but couldn't. Drats! Lots of good advice all ways round.

Her behaviour doesn't seem INTJish to me that much. I know from my sis, and my understanding of INTJs, that they will seldom care to cause mischief because they'd sooner avoid it and people-- people who will cause headaches, whether they are right or wrong. The only time it comes into play, either mischief or displaying an eruptive anger, is when my sis has been pushed too far, especially if she can't explain herself (Te-)well enough or doesn't bother to. Even if others are being slighted near her, she won't care, unless their her friends or family. It's not her business (and she's always flummoxed at me for always getting involved with others. Or she gets mad at me because she knows I feel hurt that people are hurting each other. But the chastising is all out of love ). So, unless the bullies or morons have taken it too far and no one is doing anything to correct them, she might get involved. She'll do it for fun, even. Sarcasm and mindfucking are good friends... For the most part, though, she'd sooner ignore it and move away to gain peace of mind from the sheer stupidity of people. Even if it's from me! Especially if it's from my ISTP best friend! Regardless if she's wrong! Getting her to admit that when it happens, ahh, it's been torture! But she's learned to...grudgingly! However, she's a very mature kid, so I doubt most INTJs will allow others to be privy to their comprehension of being wrong, unless they are much more evolved. As for trying to exert control of their enviornment, sure, to a certain extent--and that includes people within them but not so much, I'd think, unless they care about them. And if there is use for it, something to be gained and if people are cooperative. Otherwise, I doubt they'll bother much, unless they feel they have to (school, work, responsibility of some kind).

I know that even if angry, however, my sister (and INTJs that I know of) will remain quiet and seethe. And think on it for a while before it's shown other than a tight expression on their face or avoidance in general.. Perhaps be curt with words but not engage in ways to incite discussion or argument. Unless someone initiates it, they won't bother. The path of least resistance comes to mind, when dealing with others. Even others they might like but aren't familiar with! #_# They might advise, even curtly, if asked or they care enough. As cafe said, though, my sis can gripe but only to me or people she trusts. She'd sooner not open up and share, though. She has high expectations of others as well. But she doesn't believe they'll work as hard or be as respectful, etc, so she mostly doesn't care-- if it's been proven that they won't or she can intuit it based on their interactions.. She'll mutter, sure, but she won't try to get others (parents or me etc) to get on her side. You're either on it or not but she's not asking and she doesn't care to ask. She doesn't want anyone's help. She'll cut you up if she pleases to. #_# But, of course, ages, sexes, backgrounds and maturity of INTJs as with all Types, will differ. Her childhood was pretty happy, thanks to moi And I'm 7 years older + she's been still spoiled by me, even though she is not a spoiled kid. I wonder how the dynamics would change if she were the elder as cafe's daughter is...

:horor:!!!

But aside from that, rainfall, if your sis is an INTJ or not... You can still just approach her as a person, regardless of Type. The advice given to others is noteworthy. You can take any bit you'd like and run away with'em, or not. Ultimately, as it's been aforesaid, what you want to gain from your relationship with your sister and family is yours to choose. You can focus on what's going wrong or focus on what you'd like to make right or have made right for you. But so long as you remain as positive as you can, you can still move forwards without her or as limited with her as can be within your situation. As you say you're planning on moving out, focus on that and all the positivity to be gained from moving out. Freedom! Away from her and your family. Perhaps, the change will be good for you all and they may alter their thinking of you after they realise your absence. Maybe they'll see your sis' bitching for what it is? Empty and trite? Eh. If not, it's their loss. Even, perhaps, your loss. But it'd be a loss you chose for yourself, if made consciously, but also a gain for you as well as you'd likely be happier and free.

It's also good that you can admit that you might be the bad guy. As well that your sis may be a well meaning person who's just caught up in something she can't control and is inappropriately taking it out on you. Though, I wouldn't label you or your sister the bad guy. People are just messed up, Ha. But accepting your flaws and moving past them, accepting your sister's and moving past them, or your family's, that's a good step, I think. Good luck! Hope all goes well.

 

[cafe]

How about enforcement?

I really think it can be a firstborn thing. She only does it with her siblings.

Please define and provide an example or two

Personal responsibility: being responsible for yourself, taking responsibility for your actions, being independent, not expecting other people to take responsibility for you or to figuratively or literally clean up your messes. As an example, I'll point to the frequency with which INTJs are libertarians, at least the ones on this forum.

As long as it doesn't impact me, their follies are not my concern. I might advise them if they were interested in learning and help/facilitate implementation if they need it, but that's about all.

Oh, she normally only cares if it impacts her. Siblings and classmates acting like idiots can screw with your life, even if it's indirect. Also, INTJs are not exempt from normal, human, sibling rivalry and according to the descriptions, all T types value fairness. As a rule, most humans do.

Also, it's possible that you do not have a close relationship with your parents that daughters, even T ones, tend to have. I mean, I'm pretty sure an INTJ wouldn't allow her child to be mistreated by others simply because it did not effect her personally. Maybe rainfall's sister feels protective of her parents. INTJs are not exempt from normal feelings of family loyalty and protectiveness.

 

[rainfall]

Rule following is not one of our long suits, and we wouldn't care much if someone else was unless it was directly impacting us. We're aware of them, but we only follow them when they are helpful to us, and we readily break them if they're not. Sounds rather ISTJ-ish, actually.

Our high expectations tend to be intellectual ones, not rule-following ones.

Parents doctors, grandparents teachers. Purty intellectual and all. She was gonna be a lab rat. I've yet to finish high school. :sad:

 

[Wolf]

Not caring about rules is not the same thing as refusing to follow them. If more is to be gained from following the rules than from disobeying them, then an INTJ will follow them, in my experience. This is why many INTJs are not that rebellious. We don't rebel for the sake of rebellion.

True. Again, we do it because it's expedient, not because we care about them. Enforcing or even citing rules is very rare for us. It's one of the reasons the stories above don't sound like anyone of our type.

I really think it can be a firstborn thing. She only does it with her siblings.

I'm a firstborn, too. My brothers got into all sorts of trouble and it only bothered me when my father dragged me into it to help fix it. I always told him to let them learn from their mistakes, but he constantly bailed them out. There were no expectations. It's just not in our nature.

Personal responsibility: being responsible for yourself, taking responsibility for your actions, being independent, not expecting other people to take responsibility for you or to figuratively or literally clean up your messes. As an example, I'll point to the frequency with which INTJs are libertarians, at least the ones on this forum.

Yes, and we also seem to be in a select range of technical professions. Again, we don't enforce laws or remind people of them, though we might come up with ones that are sensible and fair (or, if evil, like our buddy Uber here, we might use them for our own devious purposes).

Oh, she normally only cares if it impacts her. Siblings and classmates acting like idiots can screw with your life, even if it's indirect. Also, INTJs are not exempt from normal, human, sibling rivalry and according to the descriptions, all T types value fairness. As a rule, most humans do.

There's a difference between that and expectation. We just don't care unless we see a connection. At the most, I might give someone a weird look if they're acting unreasonably, but it still doesn't really matter unless it actually impacts me.

Today, I have a prime example:
Parking vultures. I hate these people and wish to torture them in the most painful ways possible. They stop everyone behind them and don't even think about anyone stuck due to their inconsiderate actions. It should be legal to push them out of the way when they do that. Today two of those pieces of shit stopped a long line of cars (including me) for 10 minutes while one waited on someone to pack all their stuff and back out. In that time another vulture right behind them noticed someone getting into a car near them and after vulture 1 took the spot (it wasn't even a choice one, all the way across the parking lot from the mall) so after 1 got in we all thought we would be able to go, but them 2 just sits there until this other person gets out. But, no, vulture 2 was too close to the car they were trying to replace, so the idiot starts BACKING UP.

OMG. I WANT TO KILL.

All the while, I watch 9 cars pull out in neighboring lanes where others grab them because there are no vultures.

Also, it's possible that you do not have a close relationship with your parents that daughters, even T ones, tend to have. I mean, I'm pretty sure an INTJ wouldn't allow her child to be mistreated by others simply because it did not effect her personally. Maybe rainfall's sister feels protective of her parents. INTJs are not exempt from normal feelings of family loyalty and protectiveness.

My relationships are...different. Close relationships aren't something we do much. We would only step in if such mistreatment was unusual, otherwise we would want them to handle it and stand on their own two feet. Autonomy and self-sufficiency are things we highly value, so we would do things to help others increase these traits. See your "personal responsibility" section.

Parents doctors, grandparents teachers. Purty intellectual and all. She was gonna be a lab rat. I've yet to finish high school. :sad:

Never bothered me that my brothers didn't graduate high school while I graduated very early and have a college education. My opinion of them would be the same regardless of education, just as it is with everyone.

My brother has been in jail for 6 months. He couldn't read before he ended up in there. Since he has been there, he has had no education, but he has been learning to read. The fact it isn't formal has no bearing on it to me, because I don't care how it happens. In fact, I respect his drive and ability to learn against difficult odds. When I heard about this, I did the best thing I could think of to support it... However, I never pointed out that he couldn't read, nor did it matter to me aside from my feeling sorry for him because reading is second nature to me.

We also know that negativity doesn't help, so we try to make the best of what is possible and help others to do the best they wish to do whenever we can.

 

[rainfall]

Never bothered me that my brothers didn't graduate high school while I graduated very early and have a college education. My opinion of them would be the same regardless of education, just as it is with everyone.

My brother has been in jail for 6 months. He couldn't read before he ended up in there. Since he has been there, he has had no education, but he has been learning to read. The fact it isn't formal has no bearing on it to me, because I don't care how it happens. In fact, I respect his drive and ability to learn against difficult odds. When I heard about this, I did the best thing I could think of to support it... However, I never pointed out that he couldn't read, nor did it matter to me aside from my feeling sorry for him because reading is second nature to me.

We also know that negativity doesn't help, so we try to make the best of what is possible and help others to do the best they wish to do whenever we can.

Must be nice to be in your family.

 

[Wolf]

"We INTJs"

Unless you meant something else.

 

[rainfall]

"We INTJs"

Unless you meant something else.

Family family. Mom dad brotha sista. From what I understand, healthy family dynamics are passed down, taught, even. I guess there wasn't much to pass down in case of our parents. I mean, their parents barely saw them...

 

[white]

Family family. Mom dad brotha sista. From what I understand, healthy family dynamics are passed down, taught, even. I guess there wasn't much to pass down in case of our parents. I mean, their parents barely saw them...

I forgot to ask, but how old are you that not finishing high-school affects you and that she keeps referring to that? If it is say, a year out, it's probably because she has nothing new to focus on about you?

What do you plan to do next though? For yourself? That is more important... Sometimes, with family, the only thing we can do is accept, but we still have to move on, and grow in other ways, or we'd stagnate.

Also, the more you build for you, the less the sting of sibling rivalry - shift the focus, simply, from what you didn't do, to what you are doing, and can accomplish.

Hope that helps...

 

[Wolf]

Family family. Mom dad brotha sista. From what I understand, healthy family dynamics are passed down, taught, even. I guess there wasn't much to pass down in case of our parents. I mean, their parents barely saw them...

My immediate family was/is anything but healthy. Just trust me on this.

 

[rainfall]

I forgot to ask, but how old are you that not finishing high-school affects you and that she keeps referring to that? If it is say, a year out, it's probably because she has nothing new to focus on about you?

Oh yeah. 22. Been 4 years. Not all of it was spent slacking, there were bouts of work half year-year long with breaks. Hate work, never had self-discipline to study. I guess I should just move out. That way, I'd be forced to deal with reality.

What do you plan to do next though? For yourself? That is more important... Sometimes, with family, the only thing we can do is accept, but we still have to move on, and grow in other ways, or we'd stagnate.

Plans? I'm not sure. Never planned to make it past 19.

My immediate family was/is anything but healthy.

So what happened? Ya got out as quick as possible and moved on?

 

[Wolf]

So what happened? Ya got out as quick as possible and moved on?

Pretty much. It's a long story.

 

[Badlands]

I have an INTJ friend, and honestly I couldn't imagine how horrible it would be being related to him. Like others have said of INTJs, when he's threatened or depressed he has no problem being critical of others even knowing it's unnecessary and will hurt somebody's feelings. Getting her back is hopeless; the reason this works so well for them is if they recieve a taste of their own medicine, they don't care at all. My advice is to argue on a rational level; ask if she really thinks her criticism is helping anyone and whether she feels good criticizing you; INTJs often don't like the thought of letting their emotions control their actions, moreso than the other NTs.