INTJMom
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2007
- Messages
- 5,413
- MBTI Type
- INTJ
- Enneagram
- 5w4
Thanks. I just finished reading a lengthy article in praise of Charlotte Lucas with which I heartily agreed.
-
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.
Jane Austen - Masterpiece Theatre
- Thread starter INTJMom
- Start date
P.1.Ah, Long Post! Flee!
I'm taking my spin on P & P as per heart's instruction. I've yet to read the rest of the posts so I shall in a while
This is Pt.1 (yea, long drivel abounds!)
I shall speak of these peope only:
Lizzy = INFJ
Jane = INFP
Mr. Darcy = INTJ (though I mention him briefly)
I think it was in a "What Type is Lizzy and Darcy?" thread that got me interested. I couldn't comment as I hadn't registered yet and when I did I think the thread died. heart assured me you guys are running strong, so here I jump in with my spinning visions!
I vaguelly recall the thread comments (initially) in believing P & P's Lizzy as being remarked probably an ENFJ and Mr. Darcy as INTJ but I found Lizzy to look like a typical INFJ who's too biased, exterts their feelings wrongly onto others (Mr. Darcy, Charolette, Wickham, Jane) and sympathizes (not empathizes) too easily as Lizzy did with Mr. Wickham. Wickham quickly hashed out stories and so easily upon meeting her that she just JUMPED (Ni can't process when Fe is overwhelmed!) to feel sorry and she held bias (Fi) for Mr. Darcy for slighting her. Never mind her (Fe-ing) her bias onto misunderstanding him and the intentions/feelings of other's.
So, Mr. Wickham looked "Oh, so perfectly right and sincere, why would he lie?! He's the victim!" until she started listening to other's POVs, including her much wiser (albiet, I feel, too naive) INFP sister Jane. When she was able to stop her "Fe" from reacting so fast to Wickham's "Fe" or that of another's, her Ni was able to breathe and think again of the possibilities of differing events ("What really/might've happened?") that she'd lived up to that whole year. She needed the input of other's because INFJ's Last Demonically evil Cognitive Process is Introverted Sensing, so memory retention and recall can be hard unless directed towards others (Fe).
When she went on the trip with her Aunt and Uncle, that was another revelatory session for her. Her Ni pieced/connected it all out because she could "think clearly w/o distraction" + was away from the "Fe-ing Force" of Wickham + others! An INFJ can't concentrate on their thoughts/feelings when they become too intensely fixated on others and has already developed bias against the "Mean Attacker" for the "poor victim" as they want to listen and connect with this person.
INFJ gone mad with prejudice can be seen easily as it's demonstrated when they're overpowered by Extroverted Feeling and not allowing their Introverted Intuition enough time to process it all thus bias can be easily formed. The problem is, sometimes, people can't believe b/c the INFJ is normally "Clear-headed", so they look OOC. I don't know where I found people saying Lizzy's sister Jane is an INFP but I somtimes think it's too crazy or maybe just about right if Jane is an evolved INFP...I think Jane is so silly and frustrating and I wanna hug her happiness in not having bias, however naive it is!!! IMHO, an INFP will not fall into bias easily because they take a long time in figuring the feelings of other's as well as their own. They will be more careful in determining the feelings of others privately in their headand work to prove them right or wrong. INFJs (Lizzy) will 'right away' work to prove if a person is trusting or not. It can be hard for both to change their minds once determined their ideas are right.
-cont'd in Pt.2
I'm taking my spin on P & P as per heart's instruction. I've yet to read the rest of the posts so I shall in a while
This is Pt.1 (yea, long drivel abounds!)I shall speak of these peope only:
Lizzy = INFJ
Jane = INFP
Mr. Darcy = INTJ (though I mention him briefly)
I think it was in a "What Type is Lizzy and Darcy?" thread that got me interested. I couldn't comment as I hadn't registered yet and when I did I think the thread died. heart assured me you guys are running strong, so here I jump in with my spinning visions!
I vaguelly recall the thread comments (initially) in believing P & P's Lizzy as being remarked probably an ENFJ and Mr. Darcy as INTJ but I found Lizzy to look like a typical INFJ who's too biased, exterts their feelings wrongly onto others (Mr. Darcy, Charolette, Wickham, Jane) and sympathizes (not empathizes) too easily as Lizzy did with Mr. Wickham. Wickham quickly hashed out stories and so easily upon meeting her that she just JUMPED (Ni can't process when Fe is overwhelmed!) to feel sorry and she held bias (Fi) for Mr. Darcy for slighting her. Never mind her (Fe-ing) her bias onto misunderstanding him and the intentions/feelings of other's.
So, Mr. Wickham looked "Oh, so perfectly right and sincere, why would he lie?! He's the victim!" until she started listening to other's POVs, including her much wiser (albiet, I feel, too naive) INFP sister Jane. When she was able to stop her "Fe" from reacting so fast to Wickham's "Fe" or that of another's, her Ni was able to breathe and think again of the possibilities of differing events ("What really/might've happened?") that she'd lived up to that whole year. She needed the input of other's because INFJ's Last Demonically evil Cognitive Process is Introverted Sensing, so memory retention and recall can be hard unless directed towards others (Fe).
When she went on the trip with her Aunt and Uncle, that was another revelatory session for her. Her Ni pieced/connected it all out because she could "think clearly w/o distraction" + was away from the "Fe-ing Force" of Wickham + others! An INFJ can't concentrate on their thoughts/feelings when they become too intensely fixated on others and has already developed bias against the "Mean Attacker" for the "poor victim" as they want to listen and connect with this person.
INFJ gone mad with prejudice can be seen easily as it's demonstrated when they're overpowered by Extroverted Feeling and not allowing their Introverted Intuition enough time to process it all thus bias can be easily formed. The problem is, sometimes, people can't believe b/c the INFJ is normally "Clear-headed", so they look OOC. I don't know where I found people saying Lizzy's sister Jane is an INFP but I somtimes think it's too crazy or maybe just about right if Jane is an evolved INFP...I think Jane is so silly and frustrating and I wanna hug her happiness in not having bias, however naive it is!!!
IMHO, an INFP will not fall into bias easily because they take a long time in figuring the feelings of other's as well as their own. They will be more careful in determining the feelings of others privately in their headand work to prove them right or wrong. INFJs (Lizzy) will 'right away' work to prove if a person is trusting or not. It can be hard for both to change their minds once determined their ideas are right.-cont'd in Pt.2
Pt.2 Even longer!
cont'd from Pt1.
Lizzy = INFJ
Jane = INFP
Mr. Darcy = INTJ
Jane might truly be an INFP who has landed on the other side of the fence and will not allow bias to form at all b/c they fear it--fear criticising a loved one or someone they're falling in love with. Jane was too focused on taking the only info she received (as she was isolated for a long time from Bingley and his sisters) which INFPs can do if they don't get a chance to learn more (Ne can't do it!). That's where the "Rose Coloured Glasses" can come in (same with INFJs towards their "visions" of people such as Lizzy).
I've realised Jane was openly treated nicely by the wicked sisters of Mr. Bingley and it was probably due to her bias (yes, good bias) for Bingley that she found his relations as just like him. She didn't see Lizzy or couldn't hear any stubtlety against her sister being treated unfairly (Ne? Nope) because she wasn't really around to see it. And convo b/w the sisters in her presence as well as Lizzy's always focused on her and how sweet she was (to Lizzy's rolling eyes of being ignored + sis getting suckered) So, it was all about how they treated her (Fi) that she could infer at the time. It wasn't until later she took of the Rosey Glasses and crushed them into the ground...softly.
INFP Jane held a lot of recollection of the events and kept putting Lizzy back in CHECK (Si being stronger for INFPs than INFJs). INFJ Lizzy wouldn't listen to her and in a nice 'arrogant' way would say "Oh, Jane, you're just too nice. You want to think or recall it that way, that's not what happened, you're mistaken, my dear! I saw it ALL!" but Jane DID have better memory + better perspective for Lizzy, just not for herself at the time due to the Rosey view.
Another thing I noticed is in how Jane was implied to be better able in handling the kids. INFPs have Ne as their 2nd Cognitive Process so they can focus on the talkative enviornment better than an INFJ (Lizzy) can. Kids can be so overwhelming with possibilities and neverending questions. While appreciated, I'm sure it would be, by Lizzy, she'd likely not be able to "focus" b/c it's too much info. The kids adore Jane probably b/c she can "keep up" with them and zoom along for the ride. INFJs like to ask a lot sure, but they need to make comment from what you say. Then direct the convo with the next question once you've suficiently answered them. Noticed how Lizzy asked people what she wanted? She was always very direct when sure and less direct when unsure. Even wrongly direct in telling people about her half-envisioned assumptions and refusing to listen when it differed from her own (wasn't until a believed "trusted" servant could speak so openly about Darcy and briefly hint a bad apple in Wickham.).
INFP Jane was WRONGLY mispercieved as not being interested by INTJ Mr. Darcy because she was too subtle in showing her affections. INTJs can be horrible at subtetly as well as INFJs unless they know the person well, sometimes. INTJs distrust "feelings" of other's or it makes them uncomfortable (unless developed/evolved). He didn't know Jane b/c she was so quiet and his friend always "appeared" (based off exp.) in being flighty with women he fancied. Because he COULD hear the idoicy of Jane's mother touting "She's always been the most beautiful, she was bound to marry herself WAY UP there!" He believed that, in order to protect his friend, that he would crush the idea out of Bingley. It's the same as with his sister's incident. He wanted Wickham AWAY from his sister so as not to 'influence' her with his insincere feelings for her. Just as he believe Jane's feelings insincere due to the "appearances" of her family, baring Lizzy.
Jane was just gauging Mr. Bingley's feelings for her (Fi) and not wanting to show she was "falling" too fast because she was afraid of getting hurt if it didn't work out. She was NOT aware of the outer environment from other's chattering (Ne) whenever engaged with him. During the one ball (2nd?), Mr. Bingley and she were close and quiet in a corner. She was soaking up all he told her (Ne) in order to 'feel' him out (Fi). It was the ball where INTJ Darcy commented on not liking women who acted slighted by men or something like that (towards Lizzy as he knew she was listening).
-cont'd in Pt3
cont'd from Pt1.
Lizzy = INFJ
Jane = INFP
Mr. Darcy = INTJ
Jane might truly be an INFP who has landed on the other side of the fence and will not allow bias to form at all b/c they fear it--fear criticising a loved one or someone they're falling in love with. Jane was too focused on taking the only info she received (as she was isolated for a long time from Bingley and his sisters) which INFPs can do if they don't get a chance to learn more (Ne can't do it!). That's where the "Rose Coloured Glasses" can come in (same with INFJs towards their "visions" of people such as Lizzy).
I've realised Jane was openly treated nicely by the wicked sisters of Mr. Bingley and it was probably due to her bias (yes, good bias) for Bingley that she found his relations as just like him. She didn't see Lizzy or couldn't hear any stubtlety against her sister being treated unfairly (Ne? Nope) because she wasn't really around to see it. And convo b/w the sisters in her presence as well as Lizzy's always focused on her and how sweet she was (to Lizzy's rolling eyes of being ignored + sis getting suckered) So, it was all about how they treated her (Fi) that she could infer at the time. It wasn't until later she took of the Rosey Glasses and crushed them into the ground...softly.
INFP Jane held a lot of recollection of the events and kept putting Lizzy back in CHECK (Si being stronger for INFPs than INFJs). INFJ Lizzy wouldn't listen to her and in a nice 'arrogant' way would say "Oh, Jane, you're just too nice. You want to think or recall it that way, that's not what happened, you're mistaken, my dear! I saw it ALL!" but Jane DID have better memory + better perspective for Lizzy, just not for herself at the time due to the Rosey view.
Another thing I noticed is in how Jane was implied to be better able in handling the kids. INFPs have Ne as their 2nd Cognitive Process so they can focus on the talkative enviornment better than an INFJ (Lizzy) can. Kids can be so overwhelming with possibilities and neverending questions. While appreciated, I'm sure it would be, by Lizzy, she'd likely not be able to "focus" b/c it's too much info. The kids adore Jane probably b/c she can "keep up" with them and zoom along for the ride. INFJs like to ask a lot sure, but they need to make comment from what you say. Then direct the convo with the next question once you've suficiently answered them. Noticed how Lizzy asked people what she wanted? She was always very direct when sure and less direct when unsure. Even wrongly direct in telling people about her half-envisioned assumptions and refusing to listen when it differed from her own (wasn't until a believed "trusted" servant could speak so openly about Darcy and briefly hint a bad apple in Wickham.).
INFP Jane was WRONGLY mispercieved as not being interested by INTJ Mr. Darcy because she was too subtle in showing her affections. INTJs can be horrible at subtetly as well as INFJs unless they know the person well, sometimes. INTJs distrust "feelings" of other's or it makes them uncomfortable (unless developed/evolved). He didn't know Jane b/c she was so quiet and his friend always "appeared" (based off exp.) in being flighty with women he fancied. Because he COULD hear the idoicy of Jane's mother touting "She's always been the most beautiful, she was bound to marry herself WAY UP there!" He believed that, in order to protect his friend, that he would crush the idea out of Bingley. It's the same as with his sister's incident. He wanted Wickham AWAY from his sister so as not to 'influence' her with his insincere feelings for her. Just as he believe Jane's feelings insincere due to the "appearances" of her family, baring Lizzy.
Jane was just gauging Mr. Bingley's feelings for her (Fi) and not wanting to show she was "falling" too fast because she was afraid of getting hurt if it didn't work out. She was NOT aware of the outer environment from other's chattering (Ne) whenever engaged with him. During the one ball (2nd?), Mr. Bingley and she were close and quiet in a corner. She was soaking up all he told her (Ne) in order to 'feel' him out (Fi). It was the ball where INTJ Darcy commented on not liking women who acted slighted by men or something like that (towards Lizzy as he knew she was listening).
-cont'd in Pt3
I briefly read that ISFJs don't like to share their opinions with other's. Lizzy was entirely opininated about everything and enjoyed sharing them with other's, to help or to put down.
I also read that they feel overshadowed or overlooked and tread on by others. Lizzy has always been confident, even erroneously, as she has always "looked ahead". She'd predict what would happen if you "do this" (Don't let Lydia go! Mistake will happen!). She never once looked treaded to me but always fiercely held her ground or naturally held her ground.
ISFJs have positive outlooks in life. Not to say INFJs don't but they like knowing anything can happen (as did Lizzy frequently tout as her 'predictions' would come true and then "See father, I was right!" And I read that ISFJs they defer to their mates in relationships. At not time did it appear Lizzy took anyone else's clues but her own or listented when they differed from her own 'vision'.
But I shall continue in Pt.3
Pt.3
-cont'd from Pt.3
Lizzy = INFJ
Jane = INFP
Mr. Darcy = INTJ
During all balls, while Jane was only focused on Mr. Bingely, it was the opposite for Lizzy. Even when Bingley wasn't around, Jane could focus quietly in her own mind. Opposite with Lizzy. Even when she was entirely focused on Wickham's gratuitous display of Fe against her Ni's reasoning, it's due to being bombarded, not b/c she was trying to gauge his feelings for her (at the time.
During the balls exlucding Wickham, Lizzy was entirely focused on all incoming info (Se is a nightmare for INFJs if not developed well) and it can distort and stop Ni from moving forward as usual. At the ball where she was slighted by Darcy: she could spot Darcy saying this, hear Jane doing that ("Oh splendid!"), find her mother acting this ("Stop embarrassing us!") and sister's doing that "Have you no shame!?!"), tried getting her dad to intervene "Why aren't you doing anything, you're the boss!!!" so it all bombarded her Se into her Fe lamenting that her family was making themselves + her/Jane look Foolish! And...INFJs care oh so very much about 'appearances' for themselves and that of other's close to them. When they see it, they wanna DO something to correct it (right or wrong)!! When Lizzy laments it's her family's fault for ruining Jane's chances, she saw it as their character having influenced other's to ridicule the family(their stupid Fe)---but consequently, in her POV, it reflected wrongly onto her and Jane as well (Fi angry for self and Fe angry for Jane. Recall her reproaching her dad about it[i hope]?). INFJ Lizzy constantly wants to direct/control the appearance of the family only once they started making them all look bad. Before? She knew they're deficiencies and didn't mind it b/c it hadn't been too seriously misconstrued in society. It was when her younger sisters became too much to handle for her as she couldn't 'direct/focus' on all of them at once (Se nightmare) "Where are they? What are they doing? STOP!".She'd become frustrated and vent to Jane how idiotic they all were but Jane was more humble about the bad personalities of the family "It's okay, they'll learn in time as we did...You have to leave them be in order for their own common sense to develop."
At Lizzy's best, in the end, when she is able reproach Darcy's Aunt 'against the social conventions she pays mind of if not entirely respects', she didn't want to speak of her personal feelings to his Aunt "None of your business, it's too personal." and she didn't want to speak of HIS feelings either (she became respectful of 'personal space' again + still sensitive to all that he did and meant to her). Even though it was ON THE SPOT and rattled her fiercely, because she'd been peering + piecing all not so long ago, she knew exactly what she wanted to say and stopped "appearing" so acceptable to Darcy's Aunt. I recall her "trying" to be when she didn't want to play the piano but did so anyway so as not to be rude. As Darcy's Aunt criticised HER for HER family (Ican berate them, NOT anyone else and ESP. YOU, thankyou!), her character + and entire social class was a low blow. Someone like that snivelling cousin might enjoy it but not INFJ Lizzy. INFP Jane might've been alarmed and retreated or BLEW UP ('bout time..if it happened) but as she didn't know that Aunt, she'd have probably just dismissed and figured "erroneous" thinking "You don't know my family like I do. Their issues are their own. Leave them be."). Had INFJ Lizzy not known her and was blasted, she'd have attacked back ("I know my family is messed up but they are MINE to correct, not yours!"). That's why I also think Jane was more allowing of stupid Lydia to go away ("to learn a mistake if so") but Lizzy wouldn't allow it already foreseeing disaster (for Lydia + all family) and wanted to ensure image + propriety of Lydia("can't make a mistake, won't let you") Lizzy's trusted Dad not listening was upsetting as he should KNOW how trustworthy and valid her opinions are as he's taken them before!
INFP Jane took the chance in trying to meet him in London but Wicked Sister 1 gave her the runaround and was rude to her. She realised she was too biased in favour of Mr. Bingley by seeing that if HE is nice then his SISTERS who were nice to HER (from the beginning) were not as nice as she thought. She then tells her sister how much of a "bitch" they must've really been to pretend to be so nice (k, not the word but you know) and to thwart her.
Both can have biases though. An INFP will be more biased with their feelings. An INFJ will be more biased with their 'visions' (not psychic--) but what they envision for the 'future' for others and themselves once figured out.
INTJs and INFJs are very much mirror opposities. All CProcesses are the same except with regards to T vs F. This is why both Lizzy and Darcy were so stuck on their visions of the other. Darcy snapped himself out of it much sooner, probably because he had less to deal with. And he could disengage his 'hurt feelings' in order to gain logical perspective (much harder for INFJ Lizzy). He realised he had "info" and knew of Mr. Wickham's real character, whereas Lizzy didn't, since the SOB nearly ruined his beloved baby sister's life. Which is why he knew he had to 'get him away' from his sister so her feelings wouldn't be bombarded (Fe) by him. He wisened that Lizzy wouldn't listen after the big blow up b/c both had repressed their true feelings for the other. Though, it might be said that Lizzy realised she had an "attraction" to him but b/c she knew how he felt, she delivered the lowest blow she could "I had already determined(predicted) that you were the last man on Earth that I'd ever deign to put myself in marriage with!". INFJs can be very cruel and attack you for 'revenge' in the name of 'justice' for having wronged them or their loved ones. Even though INTJ Darcy kept his sensitive "opinions" on her social status, he knew that logically it was BAD for him to marry her and he kept trusting that logic throughout until he could no longer justify it. "To hell with societal pressure, I hated my entire life anyway! I want a real person who'll challenge me!" His being forthcoming about 'proposal's end' was not done in a 'nice' manner (too charged) so it would've been misunderstood as it was. "The greed of your mother and even father, stupid sisters, just all of you except ___ + ___ <--she can't hear the exception of herself and that of Jane being 'decent', she's just focusing on "all of them" being attacked and lumped. Even if nicely said, WHO proposes in the way he did? A socially awkward INTJ might! so once rejected! they now try to explain what they always 'knew' but didn't want to say to 'protect' you, loved one, but look what you made them do anyway!
INTJs and INFJs don't like telling extremely personal things to other's, an INTJ even more so. While an INFJ seems to be doing so, and they somewhat are, it's the not deepest of their feelings b/c they hold that back for safekeeping. They'll know YOUR feelings and YOUR feelings but rarely understand theirs. They sometimes, if emotionally unhealthy, take on the projected feelings of other's and believe it 'matches' theirs when they haven't even thought things through. As Lizzy did with Wickham. Subtlety, as I mentioned is bad for INTJs/INFJs, so when Darcy tried relaying in a subtle way to Lizzy and it backfired b/c she detected but couldn't believe it (too subtle), he had to be more direct via The Full Disclosure Letter. Direct and he 'figured' her out at that point, that his trying to 'observe' her as close as possible was too awkward and that he wasn't good at speaking his thoughts so writing would be better to bypass her just Fe-ing all over him again (his Ni = "Lesson learned. Apply Better Tactics in way that Bypasses screaming Fe."
I realise I sound entirely too certain lol So sorry for sounding that way. And I knew it may look like I'm biased as I'm an INFJ BUT...I originally loathed Lizzy and thought "Too overbearing! To bossy! Too easily duped by emotions!" until it struck me (during a recent argument) how I can devolve into a similiar pattern and have. INTJ Darcy seems very likely to me. INFP Jane, I was the most uncertain of as she's TOO PASSIVE and even INFPs have their bloody limits!! Feel free to dissect my arguments
-cont'd from Pt.3
Lizzy = INFJ
Jane = INFP
Mr. Darcy = INTJ
During all balls, while Jane was only focused on Mr. Bingely, it was the opposite for Lizzy. Even when Bingley wasn't around, Jane could focus quietly in her own mind. Opposite with Lizzy. Even when she was entirely focused on Wickham's gratuitous display of Fe against her Ni's reasoning, it's due to being bombarded, not b/c she was trying to gauge his feelings for her (at the time.
During the balls exlucding Wickham, Lizzy was entirely focused on all incoming info (Se is a nightmare for INFJs if not developed well) and it can distort and stop Ni from moving forward as usual. At the ball where she was slighted by Darcy: she could spot Darcy saying this, hear Jane doing that ("Oh splendid!"), find her mother acting this ("Stop embarrassing us!") and sister's doing that "Have you no shame!?!"), tried getting her dad to intervene "Why aren't you doing anything, you're the boss!!!" so it all bombarded her Se into her Fe lamenting that her family was making themselves + her/Jane look Foolish! And...INFJs care oh so very much about 'appearances' for themselves and that of other's close to them. When they see it, they wanna DO something to correct it (right or wrong)!! When Lizzy laments it's her family's fault for ruining Jane's chances, she saw it as their character having influenced other's to ridicule the family(their stupid Fe)---but consequently, in her POV, it reflected wrongly onto her and Jane as well (Fi angry for self and Fe angry for Jane. Recall her reproaching her dad about it[i hope]?). INFJ Lizzy constantly wants to direct/control the appearance of the family only once they started making them all look bad. Before? She knew they're deficiencies and didn't mind it b/c it hadn't been too seriously misconstrued in society. It was when her younger sisters became too much to handle for her as she couldn't 'direct/focus' on all of them at once (Se nightmare) "Where are they? What are they doing? STOP!".She'd become frustrated and vent to Jane how idiotic they all were but Jane was more humble about the bad personalities of the family "It's okay, they'll learn in time as we did...You have to leave them be in order for their own common sense to develop."
At Lizzy's best, in the end, when she is able reproach Darcy's Aunt 'against the social conventions she pays mind of if not entirely respects', she didn't want to speak of her personal feelings to his Aunt "None of your business, it's too personal." and she didn't want to speak of HIS feelings either (she became respectful of 'personal space' again + still sensitive to all that he did and meant to her). Even though it was ON THE SPOT and rattled her fiercely, because she'd been peering + piecing all not so long ago, she knew exactly what she wanted to say and stopped "appearing" so acceptable to Darcy's Aunt. I recall her "trying" to be when she didn't want to play the piano but did so anyway so as not to be rude. As Darcy's Aunt criticised HER for HER family (Ican berate them, NOT anyone else and ESP. YOU, thankyou!), her character + and entire social class was a low blow. Someone like that snivelling cousin might enjoy it but not INFJ Lizzy. INFP Jane might've been alarmed and retreated or BLEW UP ('bout time..if it happened) but as she didn't know that Aunt, she'd have probably just dismissed and figured "erroneous" thinking "You don't know my family like I do. Their issues are their own. Leave them be."). Had INFJ Lizzy not known her and was blasted, she'd have attacked back ("I know my family is messed up but they are MINE to correct, not yours!"). That's why I also think Jane was more allowing of stupid Lydia to go away ("to learn a mistake if so") but Lizzy wouldn't allow it already foreseeing disaster (for Lydia + all family) and wanted to ensure image + propriety of Lydia("can't make a mistake, won't let you") Lizzy's trusted Dad not listening was upsetting as he should KNOW how trustworthy and valid her opinions are as he's taken them before!
INFP Jane took the chance in trying to meet him in London but Wicked Sister 1 gave her the runaround and was rude to her. She realised she was too biased in favour of Mr. Bingley by seeing that if HE is nice then his SISTERS who were nice to HER (from the beginning) were not as nice as she thought. She then tells her sister how much of a "bitch" they must've really been to pretend to be so nice (k, not the word but you know) and to thwart her.
Both can have biases though. An INFP will be more biased with their feelings. An INFJ will be more biased with their 'visions' (not psychic--) but what they envision for the 'future' for others and themselves once figured out.
INTJs and INFJs are very much mirror opposities. All CProcesses are the same except with regards to T vs F. This is why both Lizzy and Darcy were so stuck on their visions of the other. Darcy snapped himself out of it much sooner, probably because he had less to deal with. And he could disengage his 'hurt feelings' in order to gain logical perspective (much harder for INFJ Lizzy). He realised he had "info" and knew of Mr. Wickham's real character, whereas Lizzy didn't, since the SOB nearly ruined his beloved baby sister's life. Which is why he knew he had to 'get him away' from his sister so her feelings wouldn't be bombarded (Fe) by him. He wisened that Lizzy wouldn't listen after the big blow up b/c both had repressed their true feelings for the other. Though, it might be said that Lizzy realised she had an "attraction" to him but b/c she knew how he felt, she delivered the lowest blow she could "I had already determined(predicted) that you were the last man on Earth that I'd ever deign to put myself in marriage with!". INFJs can be very cruel and attack you for 'revenge' in the name of 'justice' for having wronged them or their loved ones. Even though INTJ Darcy kept his sensitive "opinions" on her social status, he knew that logically it was BAD for him to marry her and he kept trusting that logic throughout until he could no longer justify it. "To hell with societal pressure, I hated my entire life anyway! I want a real person who'll challenge me!" His being forthcoming about 'proposal's end' was not done in a 'nice' manner (too charged) so it would've been misunderstood as it was. "The greed of your mother and even father, stupid sisters, just all of you except ___ + ___ <--she can't hear the exception of herself and that of Jane being 'decent', she's just focusing on "all of them" being attacked and lumped. Even if nicely said, WHO proposes in the way he did? A socially awkward INTJ might! so once rejected! they now try to explain what they always 'knew' but didn't want to say to 'protect' you, loved one, but look what you made them do anyway!
INTJs and INFJs don't like telling extremely personal things to other's, an INTJ even more so. While an INFJ seems to be doing so, and they somewhat are, it's the not deepest of their feelings b/c they hold that back for safekeeping. They'll know YOUR feelings and YOUR feelings but rarely understand theirs. They sometimes, if emotionally unhealthy, take on the projected feelings of other's and believe it 'matches' theirs when they haven't even thought things through. As Lizzy did with Wickham. Subtlety, as I mentioned is bad for INTJs/INFJs, so when Darcy tried relaying in a subtle way to Lizzy and it backfired b/c she detected but couldn't believe it (too subtle), he had to be more direct via The Full Disclosure Letter. Direct and he 'figured' her out at that point, that his trying to 'observe' her as close as possible was too awkward and that he wasn't good at speaking his thoughts so writing would be better to bypass her just Fe-ing all over him again (his Ni = "Lesson learned. Apply Better Tactics in way that Bypasses screaming Fe."
I realise I sound entirely too certain lol So sorry for sounding that way. And I knew it may look like I'm biased as I'm an INFJ BUT...I originally loathed Lizzy and thought "Too overbearing! To bossy! Too easily duped by emotions!" until it struck me (during a recent argument) how I can devolve into a similiar pattern and have. INTJ Darcy seems very likely to me. INFP Jane, I was the most uncertain of as she's TOO PASSIVE and even INFPs have their bloody limits!!
Feel free to dissect my arguments DD said:
No need to apololgize, this is all SERIOUS business. It is okay to support your own thesis with certainity in the debate.
I tend to agree with your estimation of Lizzie as INFJ, but I have a problem as either Jay or Mom brought up (I think it was Mom) that she was so ready with a verbal response to Darcy. Do you think that is possible for INFJ?
An imature INFP could very well be that passive without well developed Ne but she could also be ISFP without well developed Se. I have trouble with an INFP falling in love easily with a man who claims to not read, but that is just me.
No need to apololgize, this is all SERIOUS business. It is okay to support your own thesis with certainity in the debate.
I tend to agree with your estimation of Lizzie as INFJ, but I have a problem as either Jay or Mom brought up (I think it was Mom) that she was so ready with a verbal response to Darcy. Do you think that is possible for INFJ?
Are you KIDDING me!
She'd been "storing up" all that negative info about him that it became easy to just "spew it out" instead of think of it in the moment. I can't recall if I mentioned it in my thread or if I'm going to lol. There's a misconception about INFJs/INTJs not being able to speak eloquently as they 'can't gather' their thoughts if Ni is bombarded by other people/places. This can be true, but if pushed on a topic they've already 'slaved over', this applies to Darcy too, they can react with that and just shove it all out via BAD Fi to incite the person in question. There's also the misconception that INFPs have nothing to say or are so floaty/flighty (you've been reading my observations, right?, so you know I most 100% dispute that...or you know now ). It also depends upon rearing + circumstance + education. If THRUST out to speak or encourage they do well, they may develop nicely at a younger age. I did! ...sometimes...no improv until now! But that's based off of info that's still stored, ask me to do poetry on the spot? Easy. Ask me to make a joke? I'll freeze. I make jokes w/o realising. I did Broadcasting cry during my uni break and we'd have live On-Air broadcasts to improve us. I ALWAYS chose to do the reading news + w/e was on paper. I NEVER ONCE did the "on-air live", I didn't know why it freaked me out and when people pushed me to try, I said "I'm much better helping you in the control room.(So I did that too and pushed err buttons ).INFJs can ask and ask and ask after 'waiting' so they can comment and offer up Ni's insights to help others (you've noticed by now that I keep asking and wanting your input for INFPs, right, heart?
). It can also happen when pushed in anger Ni works FAST! (and will spew forth) having wrongly taken info via Fe which when screamed out can really blast another person. To the person, the INFJ knew exactly what buttons to break and where to push them over the cliff. Some INFJs joke about paranoia but if they've been attacked or ridiculed before, they CAN retain that info of what they'd like to say as it relates to Fe-ing a person in specific(not a place/#s/names). It's the same for when INFPs observe to take in info, INFJs take some info in to store it for the future (sometimes random things to), for good scenarios or bad scenarios. They keep being touted as oh so sweet and 'nice' 'giving', and yes they can be, but if emotionally unhealthy, they can be as easily unfogiving, manipulative and dicating as say...a Hitler? I know the INFJ Hitler thing is either hated by INFJs or 'accepted' as 'possible' by INFJs, not so sure, but if IIIII had a vision and I wanted it carried out, I'd use my 'observations' to erroneously help others into my way of thinking b/c Ti has slaved away in making sure I got the facts down and the info memorized (in relation to people, it's stronger), so that when I must, I'll know what to say and HOW to say it.
If you look at his fantacism on "appearance" "being the right way", it can also possibly be derived from his illegimate roots (shame from society!) + being rejected by society (more shame!) to which he TRIED fitting in. He TRIED getting a Jewish woman but she rejected him for her religion (if true, I forget
). "So, that's what you find sacred, huh? I'll destroy all of it til you can't love it anymore b/c you denied ME!"...not that I believe him an INFJ. I know he's a Taurus...and so am I...so I am doomed even if he's not an INFJ!
I should probably not make him look like a paranoid, ever future envisioning, Fe-ing bastard who twisted the structure of society around him to make it seem he was being nice by bettering it for everyone else and turning people into his loyal cult-like followers always entrusting his inflated ego like a very very very naughty INFJ....! Are you still speaking on Lizzy or on Jane? I think Jane, so I shall choose her. I had trouble with her not showing enough awareness for bias. But INFPs (and others) learn from experience. She had never, as most of the family, been surrounded by corruption or the influences of London Town so she may have just been filled with the fantasies of it. She may not have developed Ne to the extent, as you said, in being passive. I also think it might explain, if she could be an INFP, that once she DID get the Ne experience from the mean sisters and she was able to gain new perspective (and recall Lizzy warning her), she was ready to push the girls out of her 'passively' controlled heart and make true (good) bias again.
She realised her error with Bingley, but realised "Well, a loss is a loss so I shan't dwell on it" (INFJ Lizzy DWELLS incessantly). But she had hope that he did care for her. I don't recall Jane so much as uttering an "I love you" until the end (?) she was very cautious about displaying and confirming it to others even when teased about it (even by Lizzy). When Lizzy teased, she'd defer the "feeling" Lizzy was focusing on (Liz: "You love him!" Jane: "Um,
just a bit?") to explain "Isn't he charming though? Didn't you think him nice? Wasn't he nice to everyone and not just me? He's a gentleman that all men should emulate." What does she know of most men? Even Lizzy was more aware that people are differing kinds of mean and disgusting. If only she took her OWN advice, INFJs can be so bad at that when emotionally "unhealthy". INFJ: You seem stressed you should do A, C, D, F, and maybe in case they don't work, L and try C again and Q.
Person: You look pretty bad yourself, you stressed? Maybe you should do some of that...
INFK: No, I'm fine! I'm doing okay! Let's just worry about you! (INFJ: *don't look at me like I'm incompetent, I don't even want to look right now as I can still function better than you!*)
Even while Jane was "running away" with her the possibilities of her ideas/feelings (not truly expressing "intimately held feelings"), she realised she might've been hurting Lizzy's feelings (as Wickham was digging gold in some chick and + Darcy being 'unliked' fresh in mind due to W), so she exclaimed "But I have faiththat YOU will find someone whom you'll fall in love with, Lizzy! I just know it! You really deserve someone special as Mr. Bingley is for ME" (even though she didn't truly "claim" him and kept insisting that she didn't own him, she inferred as much that she hoped she had a claim on him to Lizzy.
Oh, and, thank you for allowing me to be stubborn about my choices
I agree, this is so serious!So DD, what do you think of Darcy's obsession with Lizzie's social status? Is this a product of Te or does it possibly show Fe? I am very interested in your perspective. I realize it you might not be able to answer right away, but hope that you will eventually give some of your insight on the issue.
INTJ Darcy Pt.1
Long post alert!...again! It's all on INTJ Darcy, babes. This is but Pt.1 of 2.
~ I'm going to take Darcy being an INTJ further as I hadn't yet fleshed him out yet. So, to respond to your question first, I didn't think of it as an obsession so much as him wanting to know his "role" in relation to her "role" in (logical/rational) life thus becoming anxious about. Anxious b/c he couldn't yet see any good point in liking her w/o causing 'social awkward/chaos' in the channels around him (One is his Aunt). INTJs (INFJs) dislike mucking up the social surroundings unless they are going in for the kill (cause lol), rightly or wrongly. INTJs want to maintain a sense of harmony and maintain distance from those who will disrupt it or have potential to disrupt it. As in, just troublesome people which annoy them. They have no problem criticising in a rationally minded way via Te in order to "organise" the mistaken "thoughts" of others. He did this with Bingley but I shall expound on that after.
What comes from his awareness for the social sphere he resides in is that he understands the "logical" outcome , having already forseen it, which in his time, was irregardless of one's feelings for the persons at hand. Rank is rank. Not everyone married for love and if so they were of lower classes mostly. It would come, from my view and understanding, from Te rationalising it all as such and not allowing feelings to distort that clear understanding of logic. He obviously overcame the cold "logic" going against his personal feelings/desire but when he did try to reach out to Lizzy, he didn't portray himself as well as he could have.
From the beginning it appeared as though Darcy was too overbearing with pride when it was explained he has social awkwardness with new people or people he isn't yet familiar with. He was misperceived Proud as such by those who didn't know him and had info slandered in Wickham's favour. Why didn't he defend himself to other's about Wickham? Or even tell Lizzy when he bagan liking her? An INTJ will likely not care to prove their worth to those outside their circle. What's the point? If you can't tell how intelligent and sincere I am, then it's your loss as it doesn't effect me. You'll see the Change of Heart ( not you) when I get to it below. The only time the 'effect' of detachment from Lizzy began changing is when he began having an attraction for her but couldn't repress it and could not logically dislodge himself even though he knew of the ramifications of such a Match. Being "obligated" into a marriage by your powerful Aunt is not so easy to deal with, he had to overcome that "disrupt" too. He had to figure out a way first in observing Lizzy and then relating to Lizzy and then Going Against The World together. If there was no winning Lizzy, what would be the point in bothering? But I've gotten ahead of myself here
If we looked at how Darcy 'mocked'/teased Lizzy as well, he then later realised she was very different with her opinions than the drivel he normally was surrounded with, he would seem to have enjoyed it (can't recall if he says so or if Austen narrating says so?). He became thrilled when she responded in kind to his "being in her presence and 'picking her brain for info to help him'". Although, he didn't realise/forsee his being near her or asking her/teasing her as actually upseting her "What did I do?" it made him look worse in her eyes. He admitted, I think err, to not having people respond so 'differently' against him which was, I'd guess, endearing to see such "fresh" behaviour. Female Behaviour which wasn't so silly in nature as some females he knew were silly/superficial/unkind..but b/c they were a part of his social structure, related or through friends, he wouldn't just 'deflect' them so openly. She challenged him which was new, in so doing he open-uped into seeing her perspective on some things (the "Accomplished Ladies" talk) With a female like Caroline Bingley, he largely ignored her until she pushed him to respond and just deflected her inane questions pr obvious display of "her affection for him/his sister" to show how silly she was in subtle mockery so as not to appear an ass (smart guy, eh?). Very INTJish to be so sly if necessary in not causing outwardly probs. He knew how his social circle worked, was very aware of it. It wasn't because he cared being oh so high but because his actions were dependent on those around him (sister/friends/families). He did take pride that he was well off because he could lavish it on the people around him, such as tenants, servants, sister and friends--then when she came, the love of his life, Lizzy. INTJs who care for family and friends are fierce protectors. They will not let you so much as harm them if they suspect it so (like INFJ paranoia lol). When Georgiana confided in him that she was going to elope, he IMMEDIATELY went to rescue her and make sure her 'honour' was protected. He realised his error in sending her away from his sight b/c he thought he couldn't relate to her being a female and a younger age. He ensured she would be in better care then onwards. He ensured Wickham was happy with more of the money he wanted in return for never coming near them again. That was Darcy 'deflecting' the guy out of his life and, more importantly, his vulnerable sister's life.
When Darcy was accidently shellshocked from seeing Wickham and with Lizzy to boot, he fled. I don't even think it was due to "feeling uncomfortable" so much as PISSSSSSED and wishing he could maim the guy but "social ettiquette" which he was raised well on wouldn't allow him to be so base. His father, we learned from a servant and himself, was a great mentor and was fair. He probably lamented that he couldn't foresee something happening to his sister thus he still kept the anger fresh in his heart but not openly displayed to others. Even when being slandered, he didn't want to harm his sister's reputation (Te awareness of the 'rules' they lived by) by divulging what Wickham had done. He knew Wickham was bad but he didn't think he was any worse than he'd seen him. I'd also think he wouldn't want to so much as think/feel about Wickham ever again.
INTJs may not be as aware of the feelings of those around them, unless the people are known well, and even then Fi is their 3rd CP so it's not as trusted. Depending on its development, it can be childish (not bothering to know, just reacting) or childlike (not sure how to approach but curious all the same). He realised the error of witholding his feelings/exp. with Wickham from Lizzy and other's because that 'wanting to maintain social order' for family/self would have become exposed at the cost of other's. Other's aren't as important as self/family/friends. He corrected that when he found out all "new" things that Wickham had done in relation to Lizzy and to other's which could have been prevented had he told all.
-cont'd Pt.2
Long post alert!...again!
It's all on INTJ Darcy, babes. This is but Pt.1 of 2.~ I'm going to take Darcy being an INTJ further as I hadn't yet fleshed him out yet. So, to respond to your question first, I didn't think of it as an obsession so much as him wanting to know his "role" in relation to her "role" in (logical/rational) life thus becoming anxious about. Anxious b/c he couldn't yet see any good point in liking her w/o causing 'social awkward/chaos' in the channels around him (One is his Aunt). INTJs (INFJs) dislike mucking up the social surroundings unless they are going in for the kill (cause lol), rightly or wrongly. INTJs want to maintain a sense of harmony and maintain distance from those who will disrupt it or have potential to disrupt it. As in, just troublesome people which annoy them. They have no problem criticising in a rationally minded way via Te in order to "organise" the mistaken "thoughts" of others. He did this with Bingley but I shall expound on that after.What comes from his awareness for the social sphere he resides in is that he understands the "logical" outcome , having already forseen it, which in his time, was irregardless of one's feelings for the persons at hand. Rank is rank. Not everyone married for love and if so they were of lower classes mostly. It would come, from my view and understanding, from Te rationalising it all as such and not allowing feelings to distort that clear understanding of logic. He obviously overcame the cold "logic" going against his personal feelings/desire but when he did try to reach out to Lizzy, he didn't portray himself as well as he could have.
From the beginning it appeared as though Darcy was too overbearing with pride when it was explained he has social awkwardness with new people or people he isn't yet familiar with. He was misperceived Proud as such by those who didn't know him and had info slandered in Wickham's favour. Why didn't he defend himself to other's about Wickham? Or even tell Lizzy when he bagan liking her? An INTJ will likely not care to prove their worth to those outside their circle. What's the point? If you can't tell how intelligent and sincere I am, then it's your loss as it doesn't effect me. You'll see the Change of Heart ( not you
) when I get to it below. The only time the 'effect' of detachment from Lizzy began changing is when he began having an attraction for her but couldn't repress it and could not logically dislodge himself even though he knew of the ramifications of such a Match. Being "obligated" into a marriage by your powerful Aunt is not so easy to deal with, he had to overcome that "disrupt" too. He had to figure out a way first in observing Lizzy and then relating to Lizzy and then Going Against The World together. If there was no winning Lizzy, what would be the point in bothering? But I've gotten ahead of myself here If we looked at how Darcy 'mocked'/teased Lizzy as well, he then later realised she was very different with her opinions than the drivel he normally was surrounded with, he would seem to have enjoyed it (can't recall if he says so or if Austen narrating says so?). He became thrilled when she responded in kind to his "being in her presence and 'picking her brain for info to help him'". Although, he didn't realise/forsee his being near her or asking her/teasing her as actually upseting her "What did I do?" it made him look worse in her eyes. He admitted, I think err, to not having people respond so 'differently' against him which was, I'd guess, endearing to see such "fresh" behaviour. Female Behaviour which wasn't so silly in nature as some females he knew were silly/superficial/unkind..but b/c they were a part of his social structure, related or through friends, he wouldn't just 'deflect' them so openly. She challenged him which was new, in so doing he open-uped into seeing her perspective on some things (the "Accomplished Ladies" talk) With a female like Caroline Bingley, he largely ignored her until she pushed him to respond and just deflected her inane questions pr obvious display of "her affection for him/his sister" to show how silly she was in subtle mockery so as not to appear an ass (smart guy, eh?). Very INTJish to be so sly if necessary in not causing outwardly probs. He knew how his social circle worked, was very aware of it. It wasn't because he cared being oh so high but because his actions were dependent on those around him (sister/friends/families). He did take pride that he was well off because he could lavish it on the people around him, such as tenants, servants, sister and friends--then when she came, the love of his life, Lizzy. INTJs who care for family and friends are fierce protectors. They will not let you so much as harm them if they suspect it so (like INFJ paranoia lol). When Georgiana confided in him that she was going to elope, he IMMEDIATELY went to rescue her and make sure her 'honour' was protected. He realised his error in sending her away from his sight b/c he thought he couldn't relate to her being a female and a younger age. He ensured she would be in better care then onwards. He ensured Wickham was happy with more of the money he wanted in return for never coming near them again. That was Darcy 'deflecting' the guy out of his life and, more importantly, his vulnerable sister's life.
When Darcy was accidently shellshocked from seeing Wickham and with Lizzy to boot, he fled. I don't even think it was due to "feeling uncomfortable" so much as PISSSSSSED and wishing he could maim the guy but "social ettiquette" which he was raised well on wouldn't allow him to be so base. His father, we learned from a servant and himself, was a great mentor and was fair. He probably lamented that he couldn't foresee something happening to his sister thus he still kept the anger fresh in his heart but not openly displayed to others. Even when being slandered, he didn't want to harm his sister's reputation (Te awareness of the 'rules' they lived by) by divulging what Wickham had done. He knew Wickham was bad but he didn't think he was any worse than he'd seen him. I'd also think he wouldn't want to so much as think/feel about Wickham ever again.
INTJs may not be as aware of the feelings of those around them, unless the people are known well, and even then Fi is their 3rd CP so it's not as trusted. Depending on its development, it can be childish (not bothering to know, just reacting) or childlike (not sure how to approach but curious all the same). He realised the error of witholding his feelings/exp. with Wickham from Lizzy and other's because that 'wanting to maintain social order' for family/self would have become exposed at the cost of other's. Other's aren't as important as self/family/friends. He corrected that when he found out all "new" things that Wickham had done in relation to Lizzy and to other's which could have been prevented had he told all.
-cont'd Pt.2
Pt.2 Final on INTJ Darcy
-cont'd from Pt.1
As for Darcy's approach in "mis/handling" Lizzy? He kept his observations to himself and observed her to get to know her better. He'd ask her little questions, to which she'd wonder "Why is he asking me if I like this?", because that was his way of sucking Te info for Ni to 'figure' and 'focus' on a way of understanding her better. He didn't give her input so she didn't realise (if she is INFJ, subtlety sucks for them unless matured). He kept his passions beneath the surface, not so much as batting an eye. Lizzy would rationalize his 'eyeing' her as trying to unnerve him "Won't work, I'm on to you!".
Another big error of judgement, as I touched on with (uncertain) INFP Jane, is his INTJ easy misconstruction of her 'affections' for his close friend. He couldn't gauge her "feelings" as well as Lizzy's (Fe-ing and speaking her mind). He largely (Te) gathered analysis off her family's behaviours believing that logical input (for Ni) and enough at that (Ni concludes). Worrying that such a greedy mother, an inept father who sometimes seemed greedy too, two RIDICULOUSLY foolish younger sisters who cavorted all over the place causing 'noise' and a dulled-thing who probably escaped his eye if not his bad hearing
As he was the one who insisted that Jane was not as affectionate for his friend as the main reason, along with the aforementioned, for his 'deflecting' his friend away from her so his friend could "gain perspective", he completely disregarded that knowledge from effecting his chance with Lizzy. Lizzy was somewhat changing her mind of him as he kept "coming near her" but when she found out that it was HE who ruined her sister's happiness, oiiiiii! She was just 'preparing all the things inside' that she wanted to blast at him if/when given the chance.
The Blow Up Proposal was the clashing of ignorance battling to prove the other ignorant. Darcy, overwhelmed by Fi now, will not deny her and he has lost perspective of his "cautious observing". Ni has taken over in wanting to FULFILL this vision. He completely forgot all the info of Wickham: having earlier realised that Wickham had probably brainwashed Lizzy into making him appear criminal and he had ALREADY forgiven her for that (Why not tell her then? Oooooops!). He had on his OWN forged through into overcoming the perceived deficiencies of "her birth" (he didn't care so much as it was society that did and he had to fight society, not just her resistance!). He'd been closeting all this "love" for her, not having expressed it well (Fi is weak, remember!) and vomitted out when he couldn't stand it or wait any longer. Citing that to the woman you "love" that "despite your Inferior birth, your lack of connections, your foully behaved and ever displaying family, though you and your elder sis are A.O.K, I still found some crazy way of falling for you..What say you, my true love?"
All That Garbage
= WTF?! to Lizzy (Fi :steam What did she see of him showing affection (No Fe, nope)? Other than her bias towards their initial meeting and thereafer, being brainwashed/bombarded (Fe) by Wickham and being stubborn on taking other's input that Darcy may be a decent guy....well NO, she'd have needed to be smacked in the face by Mary's piano to 'feeeeel' his quietly residing love for her. Insulting/tearing at her "social birth" and "family's behaviours/appearances" all in ONE GO? WHOA! If she IS an INFJ, then I'd say "Nonononono, Why'd you say that to her?!" She was OVERLY AWARE that her family probably ruined Jane's happiness and were making fools of themselves as she kept TRYING to correct them "Father, you MUST STOP Lydia from leaving before she ruins us all!" as she predicted their downfall. Or during the balls or whenever she'd reproach and vent to Jane about their behaviours. But the worst of it all was that she was VERY MUCH AWARE that he RUINED her most beloved sister's happiness. He even "ruined the chances for success" to a good friend, Wickham! Lastly, INFJ Lizzy in stress, who likely knows how to effect people, will go in for the KILL against what she's feels Darcy holds sacred/value--His pride and now Her. "After we just met, I had already determined/foresaw that you were the LAST MAN on Earth I'd EVER DEIGN to MARRY!" <---"Take that, sucka! Who's a bitch, now?!"
Darcy, shellshocked, doesn't know how to react, can barely ask if that's all (can't sputter any more words) and flees. He then "recollected" himself and the connections as to why she'd react that way when he so "ardently loves her". He had NEVER SHOWN IT expressely, no matter how expressive it was in his little world. He FORGOT how to inform her that he'd forgiven her error of judgement on Wickham b/c he realised SHE didn't know, whereas he knew all along (but didn't TELL HER/anyone). He wrote in detailed length all of the issues as he likely "conceived a new way" in approaching her. One that wouldn't be interrupted by noise or Fe-ing from Lizzy. His Change of Heart complete, he discloses the intensely personal in his life b/c he realised again how his remaining arrogantly quiet b/c HE knew it all (INTJs, bad! ) and thought there was no need in telling her as such info didn't initially pertain to her. He explained the lack of understanding on Jane's part, somewhat rescinding it though still claiming it was all done to help his friend.
I found it wise that he didn't profess it at all his love for her in the letter, if I remember correctly. He needed to now do what he had forgotten...SHOW it first, then proclaim it. So, he envisioned a new scenario of not only taking it slow but learned to "open" up a bit and show he was more vulnerable than he let on. Seeing her at his estate was sheer fluke but it gave him a chance to show off his sister. He likely divulged his feelings to his sister way before the proposal (as Georgiana said "I've heard so much about you" and I doubt he'd have dumped it all at once on her). Witnessing the sincerity from his sister, whom he knew would garner a better depiction of him in Lizzy's eyes (he hoped), might just get her to see around his faults. Fixing Lydia's problem but NOT wanting her to know about it really showed how not only honourable he could be but modest too. If that twit didn't let it slip that that insufferable Mr. Darcy was there at her wedding, Lizzy couldn't have pieced yet another thing to her Ni-web log which was somewhat reorganising itself in Darcy's favour against her will....
Her trusted Aunt telling everything, how he worked so hard to find and take care of it all, really made Lizzy lament ever judging him so wrongfully in the first place. He felt it was his fault for not enlightening people on such a character that was Wickham. Paying debt, shush-money and he probably arranged it that Wickham be shipped up North, farrrrrrr away (I suspect he would've if it wasn't a "friend" of Wickham's...if it was mentioned in the book, I've forgotten lol)
Darcy was prepared to leave Lizzy alone, fearing that she'd blame him for her stupid sister running away as if he'd just told her, "it wouldn't have happened" (yea right...Lydia would've done it, methinks...). Lizzy upsetting his Aunt so far gave hope and he tried again...they both rescinded their biases and lived Happily INTJ and INFJ Ever After but with probable potential for lotsssss of Hate-Make Up Sex
I view Darcy almost like my INTJ sis. INTJs can be so huggable as well as standoffish if hugged too much but... I shall
all INTJs forever!!!
-cont'd from Pt.1
As for Darcy's approach in "mis/handling" Lizzy? He kept his observations to himself and observed her to get to know her better. He'd ask her little questions, to which she'd wonder "Why is he asking me if I like this?", because that was his way of sucking Te info for Ni to 'figure' and 'focus' on a way of understanding her better. He didn't give her input so she didn't realise (if she is INFJ, subtlety sucks for them unless matured). He kept his passions beneath the surface, not so much as batting an eye. Lizzy would rationalize his 'eyeing' her as trying to unnerve him "Won't work, I'm on to you!".
Another big error of judgement, as I touched on with (uncertain) INFP Jane, is his INTJ easy misconstruction of her 'affections' for his close friend. He couldn't gauge her "feelings" as well as Lizzy's (Fe-ing and speaking her mind). He largely (Te) gathered analysis off her family's behaviours believing that logical input (for Ni) and enough at that (Ni concludes). Worrying that such a greedy mother, an inept father who sometimes seemed greedy too, two RIDICULOUSLY foolish younger sisters who cavorted all over the place causing 'noise' and a dulled-thing who probably escaped his eye if not his bad hearing
As he was the one who insisted that Jane was not as affectionate for his friend as the main reason, along with the aforementioned, for his 'deflecting' his friend away from her so his friend could "gain perspective", he completely disregarded that knowledge from effecting his chance with Lizzy. Lizzy was somewhat changing her mind of him as he kept "coming near her" but when she found out that it was HE who ruined her sister's happiness, oiiiiii! She was just 'preparing all the things inside' that she wanted to blast at him if/when given the chance.
The Blow Up Proposal was the clashing of ignorance battling to prove the other ignorant. Darcy, overwhelmed by Fi now, will not deny her and he has lost perspective of his "cautious observing". Ni has taken over in wanting to FULFILL this vision. He completely forgot all the info of Wickham: having earlier realised that Wickham had probably brainwashed Lizzy into making him appear criminal and he had ALREADY forgiven her for that (Why not tell her then? Oooooops!). He had on his OWN forged through into overcoming the perceived deficiencies of "her birth" (he didn't care so much as it was society that did and he had to fight society, not just her resistance!
). He'd been closeting all this "love" for her, not having expressed it well (Fi is weak, remember!) and vomitted out when he couldn't stand it or wait any longer. Citing that to the woman you "love" that "despite your Inferior birth, your lack of connections, your foully behaved and ever displaying family, though you and your elder sis are A.O.K, I still found some crazy way of falling for you..What say you, my true love?"All That Garbage
= WTF?! to Lizzy (Fi :steam What did she see of him showing affection (No Fe, nope)? Other than her bias towards their initial meeting and thereafer, being brainwashed/bombarded (Fe) by Wickham and being stubborn on taking other's input that Darcy may be a decent guy....well NO, she'd have needed to be smacked in the face by Mary's piano to 'feeeeel' his quietly residing love for her. Insulting/tearing at her "social birth" and "family's behaviours/appearances" all in ONE GO? WHOA! If she IS an INFJ, then I'd say "Nonononono, Why'd you say that to her?!" She was OVERLY AWARE that her family probably ruined Jane's happiness and were making fools of themselves as she kept TRYING to correct them "Father, you MUST STOP Lydia from leaving before she ruins us all!" as she predicted their downfall. Or during the balls or whenever she'd reproach and vent to Jane about their behaviours. But the worst of it all was that she was VERY MUCH AWARE that he RUINED her most beloved sister's happiness. He even "ruined the chances for success" to a good friend, Wickham! Lastly, INFJ Lizzy in stress, who likely knows how to effect people, will go in for the KILL against what she's feels Darcy holds sacred/value--His pride and now Her. "After we just met, I had already determined/foresaw that you were the LAST MAN on Earth I'd EVER DEIGN to MARRY!" <---"Take that, sucka! Who's a bitch, now?!" Darcy, shellshocked, doesn't know how to react, can barely ask if that's all (can't sputter any more words) and flees. He then "recollected" himself and the connections as to why she'd react that way when he so "ardently loves her". He had NEVER SHOWN IT expressely, no matter how expressive it was in his little world. He FORGOT how to inform her that he'd forgiven her error of judgement on Wickham b/c he realised SHE didn't know, whereas he knew all along (but didn't TELL HER/anyone). He wrote in detailed length all of the issues as he likely "conceived a new way" in approaching her. One that wouldn't be interrupted by noise or Fe-ing from Lizzy. His Change of Heart complete, he discloses the intensely personal in his life b/c he realised again how his remaining arrogantly quiet b/c HE knew it all (INTJs, bad!
) and thought there was no need in telling her as such info didn't initially pertain to her. He explained the lack of understanding on Jane's part, somewhat rescinding it though still claiming it was all done to help his friend. I found it wise that he didn't profess it at all his love for her in the letter, if I remember correctly. He needed to now do what he had forgotten...SHOW it first, then proclaim it. So, he envisioned a new scenario of not only taking it slow but learned to "open" up a bit and show he was more vulnerable than he let on. Seeing her at his estate was sheer fluke but it gave him a chance to show off his sister. He likely divulged his feelings to his sister way before the proposal (as Georgiana said "I've heard so much about you" and I doubt he'd have dumped it all at once on her). Witnessing the sincerity from his sister, whom he knew would garner a better depiction of him in Lizzy's eyes (he hoped), might just get her to see around his faults. Fixing Lydia's problem but NOT wanting her to know about it really showed how not only honourable he could be but modest too. If that twit didn't let it slip that that insufferable Mr. Darcy was there at her wedding, Lizzy couldn't have pieced yet another thing to her Ni-web log which was somewhat reorganising itself in Darcy's favour against her will....
Her trusted Aunt telling everything, how he worked so hard to find and take care of it all, really made Lizzy lament ever judging him so wrongfully in the first place. He felt it was his fault for not enlightening people on such a character that was Wickham. Paying debt, shush-money and he probably arranged it that Wickham be shipped up North, farrrrrrr away (I suspect he would've if it wasn't a "friend" of Wickham's...if it was mentioned in the book, I've forgotten lol)
Darcy was prepared to leave Lizzy alone, fearing that she'd blame him for her stupid sister running away as if he'd just told her, "it wouldn't have happened" (yea right...Lydia would've done it, methinks...). Lizzy upsetting his Aunt so far gave hope and he tried again...they both rescinded their biases and lived Happily INTJ and INFJ Ever After but with probable potential for lotsssss of Hate-Make Up Sex
I view Darcy almost like my INTJ sis. INTJs can be so huggable as well as standoffish if hugged too much but... I shall
all INTJs forever!!! 
Jae Rae
Free-Rangin' Librarian
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 979
- MBTI Type
- INFJ
Jane Austen Essay Contest
Here's another interesting link:
The Jane Austen Society of North America - Essay Contest Winners 2006
Jae Rae
Here's another interesting link:
The Jane Austen Society of North America - Essay Contest Winners 2006
Jae Rae
anii
homo-loving sonovagun
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2007
- Messages
- 901
- MBTI Type
- infp
- Enneagram
- 9
We watched Persuasion on TIVO last night. I don't think they could make a modern day remake of that like they did with Clueless/Emma. I just don't think it's possible for someone to be that chronically repressed. Most modern women wouldn't passively stand around in silence for days, weeks and months and watch the object of their affection slip away. Which is what would happen nowadays b'cause the girl couldn't find the cojones to "Speak UP!" Live out loud girl! And don't wait until the final act. I think this story is so old-fashioned because it appears that passivity is rewarded. I don't think the theme is timeless or universal.
That said, the guy from MI-5/Spooks was HOTT.
But I still wanted to shake that girl, maybe even slap her, and yell "Snap out of it!"
It reminded me of those Ang Lee movies (Remains of the Day/Brokeback Mountain) about the long-silent and stifled lovers who can't see far enough beyond their restrictive social roles to Seize the Day! and express their True Feelings! And neither of those take place in modern times either.
It's actually quite frustrating to watch. Still, that hottie from MI-5 made it worth it.
That said, the guy from MI-5/Spooks was HOTT.
But I still wanted to shake that girl, maybe even slap her, and yell "Snap out of it!"
It reminded me of those Ang Lee movies (Remains of the Day/Brokeback Mountain) about the long-silent and stifled lovers who can't see far enough beyond their restrictive social roles to Seize the Day! and express their True Feelings! And neither of those take place in modern times either.
It's actually quite frustrating to watch. Still, that hottie from MI-5 made it worth it.
Bridget Jones is a modern remake of Pride and Prejudice. The Mr. Darcy does a fine and sexy job of being totally repressed in it.
I still think a modern but immature IxFP in their late teens/very early 20s as Jane was could easily be shy, withdrawn and unable to express out the deep feelings of their heart.
I still think a modern but immature IxFP in their late teens/very early 20s as Jane was could easily be shy, withdrawn and unable to express out the deep feelings of their heart.
INTJMom
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2007
- Messages
- 5,413
- MBTI Type
- INTJ
- Enneagram
- 5w4
Thanks! I just checked the tv guide a little bit ago.
I'm planning to video tape it. I sure wish I knew how to record onto a disk.
Apollonian
New member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 121
- MBTI Type
- INTJ
Ah, Video Tape... I remember video tape. I was one of those kids who actually knew how to program a VCR. Nowadays I just pay an extra ten bucks a month for Digital Video Recording service on my cable box. It has seriously revolutionized my television watching (for better or worse). If you have a Windows Media edition PC with a cable input, its pretty easy too.
