[INFJ] Dear INFJ Gentlemen, you are NOT ESTPs... So quit acting like it!

[SilkRoad]

I can't speak for male INFJs (cause I've only knowingly met one briefly on two occasions and he was inebriated on the second --take from that what you will) and I've only met two other female INFJs irl from this forum.

I know that for myself I am definitely capable of operating in ESTP mode. It used to be a strictly negative cycle where I was destressing and self-destructing. It's taken about a decade to eliminate the self-destructing part and just learn to go with the flow and enjoy these experiences as a mode of unwinding rather than nosediving the ride into an 'out of control spiral.' I've learned to pull back sooner once the steam is out of my system and return to my more comfortable state. I also find with time that I can engage in this behavior more seamlessly, more comfortably, and more frequently before my stress reaches fever pitch. It's not hard to imagine that an INFJ male would be inclined to develop this side of himself earlier than females due to obvious societal pressures.

I just question the frequency of 1) the op's number of friends turning up INFJ and 2) the number of them lapsing into ESTP mode and 3) the frequency with which they appear to be lapsing into ESTP mode and 4) the frequency with which they engage this side of themselves in a completely obnoxious and self-destructive manner. I don't question any of the above as being possible, it's the rate of occurrence on all counts that I'm skeptical of.

Yeah, I agree with pretty much all this. Both the existence of the ESTP shadow for the INFJ (though for me it's seldom been self-destructive...I tend to be self-destructive in very INFJ ways ) and feeling sceptical about all the INFJ guys running around in shadow mode.

I love it when I flip to the ESTP side. I know for a fact that it happens. It tends to involve at least a small amount of alcohol. I become blunt and confident, scream and jump up and down at concerts, am the wildest mosher on the dance floor...etc. I have had moments of pure sensation, I remember one gig I went to in particular, where I'd had a couple of drinks and the music, lights, cute guys on stage, tipsiness just...flowed into one. It was pure bliss. Sometimes I start thinking, which jerks me out of it, but I try to just let it flow when it comes.

I love the outdoors, animals etc, but I'm kind of a city girl so I'm a bit too cut off from nature, sadly. It is balm to my soul when I can walk by the sea and smell the smells and hear the waves, though...like I did in June. Sigh, I want to do that more.

 

[Thalassa]

^ True that. The world is a much much easier place when one is a INTJ. Peer pressure doesn't mean shit (unless they do have a point) and decisions come easy, easier to INTJs than to any other type there is. And they are the most confident type. So I wouldn't disagree with you when you say your life would be easier if you're an INTJ. And mind you they are also the most successful. I'm yet to see an unsuccessful INTJ.

But the rest of the world would think you're weird. But if you're a INTJ, you wouldn't notice .

And Marmie's typing isn't the best. So if she thinks you're an INTJ, you're probably a ESFP.

Isn't it interesting that Simulated World thinks he's an INTJ too. My typing isn't that off, I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Thalassa]

Wait wait, you are talking about objectivity? Hahahahahaa

If you get your typing information from Vicky Jo rather than a more credible, intellectual source than there's nothing left to discuss. Seriously.

That woman is a pariah.

At least I don't have my own web site and claim to be an "expert."

 

[KDude]

I don't mind Vicky Jo. She has some interesting info. But I think she's more Fe leading. Or maybe that's something she's grown into.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Do you think it's always that they have a 'wannabe' SP side? I think in some cases, yes, it can be easy to be temporarily lulled into more of an STP mentality, and in darker/more lonely times, wishing we fit in better and more easily, as a reprieve from NiFe, and as more of a safety/survival/fitting in mode, but I think too it can go beyond it just being 'wannabe'. I think it's actually an element of being INFJ: this IS one side of the personality, and personally I don't think it's always bad.

I think it can be very beneficial in working through certain situations - sort of like a suit that you put on to accomplish a specific task and then you put the suit away. In some cases, I would say it's a tool/method that is very consciously used, say in a job interview or to get a certain result. So yes, perhaps it can be viewed as contrived, but I would argue the INFJ isn't trying to be someone else - they're in fact using those skills quite consciously to accomplish some aim, or to better survive a certain situation, not that they're trying to 'be' this other person. And I know for myself, I've never viewed Se as some 'evil' shadow thing. Sure it can have its negative manifestations, but I think it adds a totally positive and even *necessary* component to our cognition and ability to move effectively through the world and also hone our perceptions (Ni) in a more fruitful way. It's not like I'm (or other INFJ's are?) ever under the delusion that I am sp or look like I'm sp - it's just an element that I might realize needs to be utilized to better navigate a situation - better presence in the moment. But absolutely my core remains pretty non-sp, and it's not like I would every *really* actualize things like an actual SP would.

As for hobbies, I definitely have a lot of Se-type hobbies. I'm not deliberately 'cultivating' them though out of some need/wish to be someone I am not, though. I have these hobbies because I truly love them and they are a key element of who I am. They're merely a part of myself - but not a wannabe part, they ARE me. A part. Do I think/try to 'be stp' while I'm doing them? No, I am who I am. But they're just as much a part of me as NiFe, and I know I don't come across as sp when I'm doing them. But that's not the point. I'm doing them because I gain a lot of satisfaction out of doing them, and these activities,and experience/newness itself, and the ability to try to savor the moment, is important to keeping myself balanced and whole. Otherwise I'd fall into an endless NiTi pit.

What you're saying is really not all that different from what I'm saying; I'm teasing with terms like "wannabe". I don't think INFJs consciously want to be someone else, or specifically to be SPs, but they may admire & see advantages in SP-associated behavior. I think they DO consciously "use" these behaviors as tools, just as you say, and yes, that is exactly why it seems contrived. It's a conscious departure from the usual mental approach in order to accomplish something.

I DO think there is a way of adopting Se-associated hobbies that is Fe-like though. I illustrated that in another post. I actually think this is a healthier form of the inferior, because it's kick-starting the aux Je function, the true balance to Ni, IMO. I think Se-mode for too long in an INJ is the lowest form of Se, which the OP is referring to.

The other point, which you seem to agree with, is that NJs don't seem to view their inferiors so negatively, and yes, that is a good thing many ways.

I find this interesting about NJs because I don't view my inferior Si or Te as balancing anything (more antagonistic), nor do I really take on hobbies which might be associated with them. Maybe that's because NFPs have to use their inner STJ for work, so hobbies tend to be more reflective of their preferred processes.

 

[Lady_X]

It's not a matter of them doing what they want or people trying to stop them...at least not in my case. I just think it makes guys seem obnoxious and retarded, not attractive.

I'm not attracted to it, I think it's lame.

It's like watching some nerd try to emulate PUA.

totally...nothing turns me off of anyone quicker than seeing them pretend to be some way they're not.

 

[Lily flower]

I am an INFJ female and have unfortunately seen the laugh too loud be an idiot thing come out of me. Very unpleasant to think about the next day.

 

[Domino]

My sister has pointed out my STPness, esp when it's more obvious or heightened in the presence of STPs. It's almost like watching matter and anti-matter collide inside my head. I wish I didn't feel so strange in the company of my otherness.

 

[Rail Tracer]

My sister has pointed out my STPness, esp when it's more obvious or heightened in the presence of STPs. It's almost like watching matter and anti-matter collide inside my head. I wish I didn't feel so strange in the company of my otherness.

If only we could be more like ourselves... right?! -.-

 

[violaine]

I'm a sensation seeking INFJ (woman). I've always had a fascination for physical challenges. And fast rides. And traveling. I didn't try those things out as readily when I was younger, but I was hyper aware of my attraction to such things. I know the way I can be surprises people.

I genuinely prefer to be kind and polite for the most part but I can't stand when someone mistakes kindness for weakness. I've had people think I'm a pushover and they get a very rude shock if they try to walk on me or mine. I admit that it annoys me greatly when anyone presumes that I'm a shy retirer because of the type I identify with. If I think about some of the INFJs on the board, they seem some of the most adventurous, accomplished people, just a bit more under the radar about it.

If my experience is anything to go by, I suspect INFJs have a strange relationship with our own ability to be powerful or with people thinking we aren't. It's like a snake in the grass sometimes, darting out unexpectedly and sinking it's teeth in. I don't think an INFJ has the kind of control an ESTP might over those flashes. Even the way I'm describing it is far more self-conscious than an ESTP might describe the way they flex their persona. I think it's because an INFJ IS self-conscious about such things, there's a lot of thought that precedes anything we do.

I notice that the baby ESTP comes out to play with a vengeance when I've been feeling too intensely in a way that is burdensome. When I feel like I've been at the mercy of my feelings or a situation, something flips inside and then I just cannot care at all for a little while. I need to blow off emotional steam. It's better if I don't let myself ricochet back and forth between those states. It doesn't happen as much if I'm engaging in regular, fun, physical activity.

My parents were both ESPs and performers as well, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. I don't crave attention though, if, in fact, ESTPs do. My ESTP father and I have a strange mobius strip reflection of each other going on... I'm the one rolling eyes at his level of consideration of others now, (esp in traffic!)

I'd never be mistaken for an ESTP if someone were really watching me though. (I did walk the Bay-To-Breakers in little more than my underwear recently, but my partner in crime and I did it in quite an ice-princess-y/classy manner of course. ) It's a matter of frequency. I go out one night and shock my E friends with my level of energy but then I'll need to go curl up in a ball for the next week, or two, or three.

Also, I kinda like when I'm in the middle of fighting for something that's important to me or someone I care about. And it's almost like the messier the better. Makes me feel like I can do anything when I'm engaged in those situations.

I don't think anything I've described above is at all uncommon for INFJs.

 

[iwakar]

I'm a sensation seeking INFJ (woman). I've always had a fascination for physical challenges. And fast rides. And traveling. I didn't try those things out as readily when I was younger, but I was hyper aware of my attraction to such things. I know the way I can be surprises people.

I genuinely prefer to be kind and polite for the most part but I can't stand when someone mistakes kindness for weakness. I've had people think I'm a pushover and they get a very rude shock if they try to walk on me or mine. I admit that it annoys me greatly when anyone presumes that I'm a shy retirer because of the type I identify with. If I think about some of the INFJs on the board, they seem some of the most adventurous, accomplished people, just a bit more under the radar about it.

If my experience is anything to go by, I suspect INFJs have a strange relationship with our own ability to be powerful or with people thinking we aren't. It's like a snake in the grass sometimes, darting out unexpectedly and sinking it's teeth in. I don't think an INFJ has the kind of control an ESTP might over those flashes. Even the way I'm describing it is far more self-conscious than an ESTP might describe the way they flex their persona. I think it's because an INFJ IS self-conscious about such things, there's a lot of thought that precedes anything we do.

I notice that the baby ESTP comes out to play with a vengeance when I've been feeling too intensely in a way that is burdensome. When I feel like I've been at the mercy of my feelings or a situation, something flips inside and then I just cannot care at all for a little while. I need to blow off emotional steam. It's better if I don't let myself ricochet back and forth between those states. It doesn't happen as much if I'm engaging in regular, fun, physical activity.

My parents were both ESPs and performers as well, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. I don't crave attention though, if, in fact, ESTPs do. My ESTP father and I have a strange mobius strip reflection of each other going on... I'm the one rolling eyes at his level of consideration of others now, (esp in traffic!)

I'd never be mistaken for an ESTP if someone were really watching me though. (I did walk the Bay-To-Breakers in little more than my underwear recently, but my partner in crime and I did it in quite an ice-princess-y/classy manner of course. ) It's a matter of frequency. I go out one night and shock my E friends with my level of energy but then I'll need to go curl up in a ball for the next week, or two, or three.

Also, I kinda like when I'm in the middle of fighting for something that's important to me or someone I care about. And it's almost like the messier the better. Makes me feel like I can do anything when I'm engaged in those situations.

I don't think anything I've described above is at all uncommon for INFJs.

I identify with this 100 f**king percent.

 

[ilovelurking]

I'm a sensation seeking INFJ (woman). I've always had a fascination for physical challenges. And fast rides. And traveling. I didn't try those things out as readily when I was younger, but I was hyper aware of my attraction to such things. I know the way I can be surprises people.

I genuinely prefer to be kind and polite for the most part but I can't stand when someone mistakes kindness for weakness. I've had people think I'm a pushover and they get a very rude shock if they try to walk on me or mine. I admit that it annoys me greatly when anyone presumes that I'm a shy retirer because of the type I identify with. If I think about some of the INFJs on the board, they seem some of the most adventurous, accomplished people, just a bit more under the radar about it.

If my experience is anything to go by, I suspect INFJs have a strange relationship with our own ability to be powerful or with people thinking we aren't. It's like a snake in the grass sometimes, darting out unexpectedly and sinking it's teeth in. I don't think an INFJ has the kind of control an ESTP might over those flashes. Even the way I'm describing it is far more self-conscious than an ESTP might describe the way they flex their persona. I think it's because an INFJ IS self-conscious about such things, there's a lot of thought that precedes anything we do.

I notice that the baby ESTP comes out to play with a vengeance when I've been feeling too intensely in a way that is burdensome. When I feel like I've been at the mercy of my feelings or a situation, something flips inside and then I just cannot care at all for a little while. I need to blow off emotional steam. It's better if I don't let myself ricochet back and forth between those states. It doesn't happen as much if I'm engaging in regular, fun, physical activity.

My parents were both ESPs and performers as well, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. I don't crave attention though, if, in fact, ESTPs do. My ESTP father and I have a strange mobius strip reflection of each other going on... I'm the one rolling eyes at his level of consideration of others now, (esp in traffic!)

I'd never be mistaken for an ESTP if someone were really watching me though. (I did walk the Bay-To-Breakers in little more than my underwear recently, but my partner in crime and I did it in quite an ice-princess-y/classy manner of course. ) It's a matter of frequency. I go out one night and shock my E friends with my level of energy but then I'll need to go curl up in a ball for the next week, or two, or three.

Also, I kinda like when I'm in the middle of fighting for something that's important to me or someone I care about. And it's almost like the messier the better. Makes me feel like I can do anything when I'm engaged in those situations.

I don't think anything I've described above is at all uncommon for INFJs.

Amen to that, sista!

 

[Billy]

If you get your typing information from Vicky Jo rather than a more credible, intellectual source than there's nothing left to discuss. Seriously.

That woman is a pariah.

At least I don't have my own web site and claim to be an "expert."

As I said I get my info from a variety of sources, I dont just read what I think other people think is popular and then pretend I am better then everyone else like you do. And the funny part of you claiming objectivity was you claiming to be anything remotely objective... you were joking right?

 

[SilkRoad]

I'm a sensation seeking INFJ (woman). I've always had a fascination for physical challenges. And fast rides. And traveling. I didn't try those things out as readily when I was younger, but I was hyper aware of my attraction to such things. I know the way I can be surprises people.

I genuinely prefer to be kind and polite for the most part but I can't stand when someone mistakes kindness for weakness. I've had people think I'm a pushover and they get a very rude shock if they try to walk on me or mine. I admit that it annoys me greatly when anyone presumes that I'm a shy retirer because of the type I identify with. If I think about some of the INFJs on the board, they seem some of the most adventurous, accomplished people, just a bit more under the radar about it.

If my experience is anything to go by, I suspect INFJs have a strange relationship with our own ability to be powerful or with people thinking we aren't. It's like a snake in the grass sometimes, darting out unexpectedly and sinking it's teeth in. I don't think an INFJ has the kind of control an ESTP might over those flashes. Even the way I'm describing it is far more self-conscious than an ESTP might describe the way they flex their persona. I think it's because an INFJ IS self-conscious about such things, there's a lot of thought that precedes anything we do.

I notice that the baby ESTP comes out to play with a vengeance when I've been feeling too intensely in a way that is burdensome. When I feel like I've been at the mercy of my feelings or a situation, something flips inside and then I just cannot care at all for a little while. I need to blow off emotional steam. It's better if I don't let myself ricochet back and forth between those states. It doesn't happen as much if I'm engaging in regular, fun, physical activity.

My parents were both ESPs and performers as well, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. I don't crave attention though, if, in fact, ESTPs do. My ESTP father and I have a strange mobius strip reflection of each other going on... I'm the one rolling eyes at his level of consideration of others now, (esp in traffic!)

I'd never be mistaken for an ESTP if someone were really watching me though. (I did walk the Bay-To-Breakers in little more than my underwear recently, but my partner in crime and I did it in quite an ice-princess-y/classy manner of course. ) It's a matter of frequency. I go out one night and shock my E friends with my level of energy but then I'll need to go curl up in a ball for the next week, or two, or three.

Also, I kinda like when I'm in the middle of fighting for something that's important to me or someone I care about. And it's almost like the messier the better. Makes me feel like I can do anything when I'm engaged in those situations.

I don't think anything I've described above is at all uncommon for INFJs.

I don't identify 100%...but something like 80%. I come from a VERY IxxJ family, and that has formed me to an extent...well, quite a large extent. We all adore travel but in most respects we're fairly scholarly bookish types (and my brother has synthesized that in interesting ways - he writes about hockey and travel, but in a refined, classy way ) But my crazy fun-loving side has come out more since I've gone out on my own. I also shock people sometimes with the silliness and the fun. It's funny, some people who've almost exclusively seen me in those situations probably think I'm an ESFP or something. I've been called a socialite and a party girl before...hardly the case really. But I have my moments and they can be so fun.

I also hate it when people mistake kindness for weakness...it's happened too many times now so that it's actually likely to make me disproportionately angry. But I hate conflict and fights. Maybe it does bring out a certain power, but it can also make me feel ugly and vicious, like I really want to hurt someone...there is a part of me that wants to hurt people who've hurt me.

I also agree about INFJs being - in many cases - very adventurous and accomplished but they may not advertise it! I still have friends I've known some time who are shocked when they learn about things I've done, because I might only talk about them when drawn out or if it seems VERY apt to the situation and the moment.

I do wonder how different I might be if I'd grown up in something like an ExxP family...! I think my parents and brother do think I'm the crazy, fun-loving one, although they know fundamentally what I am is serious and sensitive.


EDIT: Btw Violaine, I wonder if big city living has partly made you "less considerate" in some situations (like you said about you and your dad in traffic)? It certainly has me...in some ways I think it's good cause I'm more assertive, in some ways bad because I have a shorter fuse.

 

[Thalassa]

As I said I get my info from a variety of sources, I dont just read what I think other people think is popular and then pretend I am better then everyone else like you do. And the funny part of you claiming objectivity was you claiming to be anything remotely objective... you were joking right?

No I'm not joking, and I do not believe that you've read Jung or Beebe.

 

[Reverie]

I'm a sensation seeking INFJ (woman). I've always had a fascination for physical challenges. And fast rides. And traveling. I didn't try those things out as readily when I was younger, but I was hyper aware of my attraction to such things. I know the way I can be surprises people.

I genuinely prefer to be kind and polite for the most part but I can't stand when someone mistakes kindness for weakness. I've had people think I'm a pushover and they get a very rude shock if they try to walk on me or mine. I admit that it annoys me greatly when anyone presumes that I'm a shy retirer because of the type I identify with. If I think about some of the INFJs on the board, they seem some of the most adventurous, accomplished people, just a bit more under the radar about it.

If my experience is anything to go by, I suspect INFJs have a strange relationship with our own ability to be powerful or with people thinking we aren't. It's like a snake in the grass sometimes, darting out unexpectedly and sinking it's teeth in. I don't think an INFJ has the kind of control an ESTP might over those flashes. Even the way I'm describing it is far more self-conscious than an ESTP might describe the way they flex their persona. I think it's because an INFJ IS self-conscious about such things, there's a lot of thought that precedes anything we do.

I notice that the baby ESTP comes out to play with a vengeance when I've been feeling too intensely in a way that is burdensome. When I feel like I've been at the mercy of my feelings or a situation, something flips inside and then I just cannot care at all for a little while. I need to blow off emotional steam. It's better if I don't let myself ricochet back and forth between those states. It doesn't happen as much if I'm engaging in regular, fun, physical activity.

My parents were both ESPs and performers as well, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. I don't crave attention though, if, in fact, ESTPs do. My ESTP father and I have a strange mobius strip reflection of each other going on... I'm the one rolling eyes at his level of consideration of others now, (esp in traffic!)

I'd never be mistaken for an ESTP if someone were really watching me though. (I did walk the Bay-To-Breakers in little more than my underwear recently, but my partner in crime and I did it in quite an ice-princess-y/classy manner of course. ) It's a matter of frequency. I go out one night and shock my E friends with my level of energy but then I'll need to go curl up in a ball for the next week, or two, or three.

Also, I kinda like when I'm in the middle of fighting for something that's important to me or someone I care about. And it's almost like the messier the better. Makes me feel like I can do anything when I'm engaged in those situations.

I don't think anything I've described above is at all uncommon for INFJs.

Yes! This is just how it is!

 

[Halla74]

Dig that, brother Alex.

Thank you, Sir!

-Alex

2) [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION], your post was perfect.
EDIT:

Exactly!

Thank you very much, EJCC.
I appreciate that very much.



-Alex

 

[Elfboy]

"Dear INFJ Gentlemen, you are NOT ESTPs... So quit acting like it!"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Let me be the first to point out that the above statement does not apply to all INFJ gentlemen. And the ones it does apply to, it doesn't apply all the time. Nonetheless, I feel like it has to be said.

I've seen several INFJ gentlemen in my acquaintance act like the most obnoxious... well like really obnoxious ESTPs. (No offense to ESTPs. I'm not talking about a normal, mentally-healthy ESTP.) I'm talking about people acting out their shadow functions. According to Jung, everyone has a shadow aspect to their personality that consists of repressed weaknesses, shortcomings, and instincts. For an INFJ, their shadow functions are embodied in an ESTP's dominant functions.

Some - but not all - of the behavior I've noticed includes blatant womanizing and a really annoying BMOC (big-man-on-campus) attitude. It's sort of like they are trying so hard... too hard... to not be the sweet, sensitive, quiet guys they were born to be.

I've often thought that INFJ men were dealt a tough hand. In fact, our culture teaches men to be as un-INFJ as possible doesn't it? That's gotta be a real mind f*ck to the heterosexual male INFJ mindset.

The same could be said for all NF males. But I think that INFJ and INFP males have a particularly tough time of it. But I've only noticed this "shadow embracing" pattern in INFJ males. (Admittedly my anecdotal evidence is based on a small sample set. There are so few INFJ males out there.)

This won't be the first thread on how one struggles with being an NF male. And it won't be the last. I guess I was hoping for advice on how to be a good friend to my INFJ male friends when they are feeling the weight of society's expectations on them. Up until this point, the only thing I can think of is to whack 'em on the back of the head in the way Gibbs does to DiNozzo on NCIS.

Tom Cruise comes to mind

 

[violaine]

EDIT: Btw Violaine, I wonder if big city living has partly made you "less considerate" in some situations (like you said about you and your dad in traffic)? It certainly has me...in some ways I think it's good cause I'm more assertive, in some ways bad because I have a shorter fuse.

I'm sure it has. I'm always kind first, that is a conscious choice. If I didn't carve out my own space, as everyone else is doing in NYC I'd be perpetually annoyed. It's been a great training ground. Being more assertive (not aggressive) on a daily basis has carried over to make that whole "conflict" realm much easier to deal with as well. I still lurch at little inside when I know I'm going to be getting into it with someone seriously. But I've noticed serious conflict takes much less of a personal toll when it's dealt with sooner rather than later. (Because in truth, I am very focused on resolving things, it's just that in the past it used to be in a "death by 1000 paper cuts" way.)

 

[mrcockburn]

I don't think they're necessarily fighting against their nature or deliberately ungaying themselves. Sometimes you just want a jagerbomb.