[SJ] My theory on why SJs are perceived as closed minded

[tinker683]

I stated in both in the title and the original post that this is a theory, which by it's very nature makes it the opposite of an assumption as it is tentative, open to change and specifically looking for counter arguments and contrary information. as such, feel free to disagree and post your thoughts when you get back from work

Fair enough.

I would like to say in retrospect that my initial post wasn't really called for and was in fact kind of rude. Sorry.

Anywho, off work and snug as a bug in my apartment, so I'll post my thoughts.

obviously, anyone who knows about MBTI knows that all SJs are not rigid, closed minded bureaucrats. what is different about them than say, ENTPs, is that it takes more energy to process new ideas and information. an SJ who is confronted with lots of change and new information is like "whoa! slow down, I need time to process this!"

I would say this is true for the most part but only of how we look at things. I can't of course speak for every SJ, or even other ISFJs, but for me when I get what is often dubiously referred to as "new information" on this forum, it takes me a while to digest as I have to compare it to all other similar bits of information and check for any inconsistencies.

Which, unfortunately, is a tiring process.

It should be noted though that so long as I'm already familiar with the subject at hand, processing new information (whatever that may entail) is actually pretty quick. I suppose though this is because I've already formed an opinion on it (and more importantly why I've formed an opinion on it) and as such I can make a decision about it pretty quickly.

NPs can completely change vast amounts of previously known information in effortlessly and in seconds

I can't help but feel like this is a naked assertion

, but Si is sort of a "foundation" type of function

This seems accurate, speaking strictly for myself of course.

for ENTPs, changing information is as easy as driving and making a left turn.

Not sure how accurate this is but...ok, if you say so

for an SJ, changing information is like remodeling a house. you need to rework things from the foundation and make sure everything is still sturdy and solid. for example, an ISTJ needs a lot of time alone to process, except and work new information into the basic foundation of their life and their beliefs.

I think you're overstating the amount of work and energy needed for an SJ (an ISTJ in this example) to adapt or assimilate. The first part of your paragraph I can agree with but the 2nd part is overblown. I don't reexamine my worldview if, for instance, the deli I like to eat from were to stop making a soup or sandwich that I like. I'd be depressed, sure, because my routine would be jarred but adjustment would be minimal.

Now...force me to deal with something that addresses my core values, and you might have a point.

so, coming back to my point, close mindedness in SJs comes for the same reason that avoiding work does for NPs, laziness.

Wow. I wonder how many NPs love being told that they're work avoidant because they're lazy. Seriously, what an almost SJ-like thing to say

And SJs won't change their minds because they're lazy? Really? Seriously?

SJs become closed minded and bureaucratic when they don't take the time to consider the new information and except that some new information may potentially better.

SJs are no more closed minded than anyone else in this respect. I didn't realize that zealotry, fanaticism, and blinding following dogma were exclusively related to Si

as about 45% of the population is SJ and a large percentage of people are lazy, it's no surprise that there is a lot of overlap, hence, a lot of rigid SJs. this leads people to make the generalization that being an SJs are naturally close minded, but correlation doesn't equal causation.

I'm glad you at least added that last caveat to this paragraph otherwise I was going to have to brain you with a digital dough-roller.

Going by the logic that

A) A lot of people are lazy
B) A lot of people are SJs
C) Therefore, SJs are lazy

is really shoddy thinking.

anyway, just a theory, feel free to make a counterpoint

I think what people often perceive as "closed-mindedness" from me, being an Si-dom, is often a misunderstanding of a desire for familiarity and consistency.

I define familiarity is being just how acquainted with and knowledgeable of a subject/person/place/thing I am. The more familiar with it I am, the better I can understand it and the better I can understand it the more I can account for and make predictions and determinations about this person/place/or thing.

Consistency though is the big one for me and something I think a lot of people misunderstand the most. If I'm given a choice between two paths to take, Path A being a path that's quicker but doesn't always provide the best results and Path B which is harder but consistency provides results... 99 out of 100 times I'll take Path B. Why? I'll take Path B the vast majority of the time because I -know- that I'm very very likely to get what I need and it's that consistency that provides me a great deal of psychological comfort.

Now it's very likely a great many SJs can and are lazy (present company included). Sloth unfortunately afflicts every human being regardless of shape/size/age/type/whatever. But I think it imply hat a resistance to change is simple because we're not willing to put our shoulders into it is disingenuous.

Often times when I've been presented a new idea or method of doing things...the reasons I reject have nothing to do with a lack of desire to shake up my routine. It's because your new idea sucks. Suggestions that I'm just half-assing the thinking process, while possibly true in some instances, is just more or less an ad homien attack. Probably just indignation at my refusal to concede your brilliance

Here's the thing about a lot of people that drive me up the wall: They start at Point A and want to get to Point D....but often fail to realize that it's actually important to stop at Points B & C along the way, for a variety of different reasons.

If I have a stern judgement or opinion on something and you genuinely feel that your way is better, then the way you're going to change my mind is by methodically overturning my judgements, explaining to me why I'm wrong, and patiently addressing and resolving my objections. Do that...and if I have any shred of intellectual honesty, I'll change my mind.

 

[Viridian]

Because they structure, I think. Pillars of society and all that. Plus, ISJs frequently compare new data to their inner perception of what things are in a more conscious way; INJs do this too, I suppose, but they seem more open-minded because Ni has an abstract, more idiosyncratic nature. I think.

 

[Elfboy]

Fair enough.

I would like to say in retrospect that my initial post wasn't really called for and was in fact kind of rude. Sorry.

Anywho, off work and snug as a bug in my apartment, so I'll post my thoughts.



I would say this is true for the most part but only of how we look at things. I can't of course speak for every SJ, or even other ISFJs, but for me when I get what is often dubiously referred to as "new information" on this forum, it takes me a while to digest as I have to compare it to all other similar bits of information and check for any inconsistencies.

Which, unfortunately, is a tiring process.

It should be noted though that so long as I'm already familiar with the subject at hand, processing new information (whatever that may entail) is actually pretty quick. I suppose though this is because I've already formed an opinion on it (and more importantly why I've formed an opinion on it) and as such I can make a decision about it pretty quickly.




I can't help but feel like this is a naked assertion




This seems accurate, speaking strictly for myself of course.


Not sure how accurate this is but...ok, if you say so



I think you're overstating the amount of work and energy needed for an SJ (an ISTJ in this example) to adapt or assimilate. The first part of your paragraph I can agree with but the 2nd part is overblown. I don't reexamine my worldview if, for instance, the deli I like to eat from were to stop making a soup or sandwich that I like. I'd be depressed, sure, because my routine would be jarred but adjustment would be minimal.

Now...force me to deal with something that addresses my core values, and you might have a point.



Wow. I wonder how many NPs love being told that they're work avoidant because they're lazy. Seriously, what an almost SJ-like thing to say

And SJs won't change their minds because they're lazy? Really? Seriously?



SJs are no more closed minded than anyone else in this respect. I didn't realize that zealotry, fanaticism, and blinding following dogma were exclusively related to Si



I'm glad you at least added that last caveat to this paragraph otherwise I was going to have to brain you with a digital dough-roller.

Going by the logic that

A) A lot of people are lazy
B) A lot of people are SJs
C) Therefore, SJs are lazy

is really shoddy thinking.



I think what people often perceive as "closed-mindedness" from me, being an Si-dom, is often a misunderstanding of a desire for familiarity and consistency.

I define familiarity is being just how acquainted with and knowledgeable of a subject/person/place/thing I am. The more familiar with it I am, the better I can understand it and the better I can understand it the more I can account for and make predictions and determinations about this person/place/or thing.

Consistency though is the big one for me and something I think a lot of people misunderstand the most. If I'm given a choice between two paths to take, Path A being a path that's quicker but doesn't always provide the best results and Path B which is harder but consistency provides results... 99 out of 100 times I'll take Path B. Why? I'll take Path B the vast majority of the time because I -know- that I'm very very likely to get what I need and it's that consistency that provides me a great deal of psychological comfort.

Now it's very likely a great many SJs can and are lazy (present company included). Sloth unfortunately afflicts every human being regardless of shape/size/age/type/whatever. But I think it imply hat a resistance to change is simple because we're not willing to put our shoulders into it is disingenuous.

Often times when I've been presented a new idea or method of doing things...the reasons I reject have nothing to do with a lack of desire to shake up my routine. It's because your new idea sucks. Suggestions that I'm just half-assing the thinking process, while possibly true in some instances, is just more or less an ad homien attack. Probably just indignation at my refusal to concede your brilliance

Here's the thing about a lot of people that drive me up the wall: They start at Point A and want to get to Point D....but often fail to realize that it's actually important to stop at Points B & C along the way, for a variety of different reasons.

If I have a stern judgement or opinion on something and you genuinely feel that your way is better, then the way you're going to change my mind is by methodically overturning my judgements, explaining to me why I'm wrong, and patiently addressing and resolving my objections. Do that...and if I have any shred of intellectual honesty, I'll change my mind.

you weren't rude, you just got the wrong impression (initially) from my post, but you were very polite about it
the house example was meant for more controversial information (for instance, an ISFJ conservative christian processing new data on human evolution or something) but even then, I took it too an extreme to illustrate a point, perhaps I should have clarified this better
unfortunately, all the evidence on ENPs I have is more acedotal, but all the ENPs I know IRL at least can spin on a dime and change up things in minutes or even seconds (the flip side is when things don't change, we're not, naturally at least, the best with routine and consistancy)

 

[Thalassa]

you weren't rude, you just got the wrong impression (initially) from my post, but you were very polite about it
the house example was meant for more controversial information (for instance, an ISFJ conservative christian processing new data on human evolution or something) but even then, I took it too an extreme to illustrate a point, perhaps I should have clarified this better
unfortunately, all the evidence on ENPs I have is more acedotal, but all the ENPs I know IRL at least can spin on a dime and change up things in minutes or even seconds (the flip side is when things don't change, we're not, naturally at least, the best with routine and consistancy)

As ENPs we can adjust or learn very quickly and improvise, but it leaves large holes where, perhaps, facts should be. We excel at tying disparate things together, coming up with possibilities, and bullshitting on the spot. It's very much a survival strength. On the other hand, though, ISJs collect facts. Facts are kind of important. Theory with no facts is actually a pretty serious problem.

I know an ISFJ who refuses to get into major debates unless he has access to factual information - he regards all else as opinion, and he doesn't think you can necessarily change someone's opinion, so he waits for the facts.

ENPs and ISJs could actually very well supplement each others strengths and weaknesses if they appreciated that basically we each have what the other lacks. It's also the theory behind the tert/inf functions ideally making a person more balanced.

 

[tinker683]

you weren't rude, you just got the wrong impression (initially) from my post, but you were very polite about it

You're right, I was, and I apologize for that

the house example was meant for more controversial information (for instance, an ISFJ conservative christian processing new data on human evolution or something) but even then, I took it too an extreme to illustrate a point, perhaps I should have clarified this better

Actually the method you used is one that is often used by a lot people and I have found can be very useful. That being said, yah, you should have clarified that

unfortunately, all the evidence on ENPs I have is more acedotal, but all the ENPs I know IRL at least can spin on a dime and change up things in minutes or even seconds (the flip side is when things don't change, we're not, naturally at least, the best with routine and consistancy)

As one who relies heavily on personal experience to draw conclusions himself, I really can't fault you for your reasoning. It's just mine seems to have drawn different results. My ENFP father gets overwhelmed a lot at work and is horrible at keeping himself organized. He definitely handles the drastic shifts much better than I do but I often feel his priorities aren't what they should be and often ends up dropping balls and making mistakes that I personally feel are easily avoidable.

But then, I'm an ISJ and he's an ENP, so I imagine this is hardly a unique situation

 

[EJCC]

I disagree with the OP, because that's not how SJs process new information. Speaking as an ESTJ, if you give me a new worldview, and enough evidence from trustworthy sources, I may be surprised by the worldview, but I will believe you immediately. Honestly, if all SJs are like me, they process new information as quickly as you ENxPs can.

I've done a lot of talking with various people on the forum (mostly with Fidelia) about this, and we have come to the conclusion that the types that need the most time to process new information are the Ni types - e.g. INFJs. And the way THEY process new information is identical to the metaphor that you incorrectly attributed to SJs. Si is not a house that you have to tear down and rebuild - Si is a filing cabinet filled with individual pieces of information that don't necessarily link to one another. If you're an SJ, you don't have to rip apart your worldview if you learn a bizarre new piece of information that contradicts something you learned before. All you do is remove that file from your filing cabinet and replace it. (Exception to this: moral issues, like Tinker said. But I would argue that all types have morality systems that they would have to tear down if one part was proven false. Even the NTs.)

Now, for my theory as to why SJs are perceived as closed-minded: they usually follow tried-and-true methods, and require a lot of information in order to change to something new, because they don't like taking risks. People don't realize, when an SJ says "How could that possibly be better than the usual method?", that they would actually accept an answer, and all they need is a convincing reply in order to change their minds. Their initial cynicism makes people think that they will never listen to them, even though they've never really tried to make them listen. They've given up too early.

 

[mrcockburn]

OP, you forget to realize that SJs and NPs have the same S and N functions. The order is reversed, but the ingredients are the same. And especially when you're comparing an INTP with tertiary Si with an ESTJ with tertiary Ne, the fast assimilator/slow assimilator labels get dubious.

If anything, it's simply Introverts who need to step back and reflect on what the input they've received, whereas Extroverts are by nature, more fast-paced.

I also notice that Thinkers are more fast-paced than Feelers.

J's tend to be quicker to action (decisions) than P's.

Add that all up, and observe whether ESTJs seem to move along more quickly with the times than INFPs. In my own observation, this is true - the ESTJs are the movers and shakers implementing new ideas brought forth (if supported by favorable data).

When someone like an ISTJ habitually responds to every new idea, no matter how benign, with skepticism, then this is just a learned response pattern. And yes it does drive other people crazy, kind of like if I was always cracking my knuckles in your presence until you were finally tempted to break my fingers.

Yes, blaming the victim of skepticism or whatever is a common social game these days. But we can't always be in a mood to play along with the ISTJ's control games. Eventually, they have an effect not unlike Chinese water torture.

When you come across a new idea, it only makes sense to scrutinize it, to see if it's really viable, effective, and more beneficial to implement than costly. Imagine if everyone agreed with any half-baked idea - not only would nothing get done, there would be absolute chaos.

It's absolutely necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff, and ISTJs happen to be rather good at it. The only problem is, what I consider "wheat" might differ from their perception. Same standards, different goals.

 

[Giggly]

Elfboy, why do you want to like us?

For the record, I'm an SJ and even I don't understand what's going on around me.

 

[IZthe411]

Si and Ni I think are similar in this respect, in a dominant position especially; once an introverted perception is honed in on and judgment made accordingly, then it'll take a while to revamp that entire worldview if new info comes to the surface. I know it's been discussed on this forum in many Ni threads that it can take a while to reallign internal worlds. Basically I think this applies to all IxxJ's - IxxJ's aren't known for being good at on-the-fly processing and sudden shifts in worldviews -- assuming they've concluded something. And the 'needing processing time' thing applies to pretty much every introvert - it just might be triggered by different things.

My exact thoughts....Introverted functions are rigid by nature, especially when it's your dominant. Around here we like to discuss the starting point of Si and Ni and assume that's where it stops, when in fact it doesn't. It's a process that is colored by the complimenting functions as well. An SJ and an NJ can arrive at the same place in terms of view, they're just different paths.

 

[ICUP]

Si and Ni I think are similar in this respect, in a dominant position especially; once an introverted perception is honed in on and judgment made accordingly, then it'll take a while to revamp that entire worldview if new info comes to the surface. I know it's been discussed on this forum in many Ni threads that it can take a while to reallign internal worlds. Basically I think this applies to all IxxJ's - IxxJ's aren't known for being good at on-the-fly processing and sudden shifts in worldviews -- assuming they've concluded something. And the 'needing processing time' thing applies to pretty much every introvert - it just might be triggered by different things.

Well, I think the reason I described it as "uninterested" was because I have found that for many SJ's, once I, and therefore, the new information, is gone away, therefore, it is ALL gone. They never think of it again, and no matter how many times you remind them of it, they don't integrate it. I have the idea that the ISTJ's Marmie speaks of somehow were integrated during the social cycle in teen-hood lol.....or their parents passed it along. Basically, people seem to do what they NEED to do...... and SJ's don't need to change their beliefs or ideas. So be it........ there's something very serene in that. Why does it seem ok for a P to change all-over-the-place, but not for a J to remain the same? All in all, nothing is completely true anyway. It takes a J and a P to make a world.

Why don't you SJ's stick up for yourselves?! lmfao ISTP's follow tried-and-true methods a lot of times too, but the difference is, if someone started a thread like this on us, we would tell 'em to stick it up their a** and spin lol..... ;o)

 

[Elfboy]

Elfboy, why do you want to like us?

For the record, I'm an SJ and even I don't understand what's going on around me.

you caught me I can't stand 80% of the SJs I know lol, but I at least want to understand them better so that I can make a more informed decision about which one's I don't like vs which one's I just don't understand. I suppose I believe in giving people a chance if I don't understand them

 

[entropie]

I do understand the op perfectly, could infact be something I've written myself and therefore I think its a view on matters from a very N perspective.

I like to finetune the idea with regards to SJ being intrested in new ideas, but often demanding deep logical consistency. It's my natural state to let the brain wander and to daydream, the only thing that keeps me sane is a fundamental understanding of the natural laws and a kinda boolean logic. In discussion with SJs I am often forced to make sense with what I say and of course that is necessary in the business world, yet on a more friendship based level or in my private sphere, I feel kinda humiliated by the need for everything to make perfect sense by SJs.

Thats why I tend to avoid their presence when I want to have fun. There are people on this world who actually can understand me without me needing to explain everything.

I have learnt to develop a very methodical and analytical approach to do things, largely influenced by my education in University. Still I havent managed to think like that too, my mind's still an abstract mess when it comes to thinking about things. That's why I like written conversations, cause then I have time to check my own thoughts for consistency, in verbal conversation I most often firstly recognize I am talking bullshit, the moment after I've said it.

Working with people demanding from me to make sense every second is very straining and drains a lot of my energy. Still I understand that it is ncessary. There are SJs who are different, like my ESTJ boss who deeply values my ideas and encourages me to elaborate and to think about them openly and while I am in the room with her. She understood that I just do things differently and she has learnt to respect that to be rewarded with the answer he was looking for. I deeply appreciate her doing that for me.

I think the majority of my colleagues think that I am an idiot and I cant say they are really wrong about that. Yet my responsibilities in the company keep growing and I am often consulted for my technological expertise and ideas around future developments, I feel that my superiors respect me and see potential in me. I hope I'll maintain to operate stable in this business world and to keep up the fascade of a phillistine life. I am quite convinced tho, at some point in my life, I'll blow it again and do something differently .

 

[InvisibleJim]

I disagree with the OP, because that's not how SJs process new information. Speaking as an ESTJ, if you give me a new worldview, and enough evidence from trustworthy sources, I may be surprised by the worldview, but I will believe you immediately. Honestly, if all SJs are like me, they process new information as quickly as you ENxPs can.

It's a well attributed fallacy of some P types, especially the EP types, that simply stating their opinion will make another change their mind...

Like seriously, bring substantial information and analysis to the table then people will change their mind if it is factual, otherwise J types will stick to their opinions.

Also note that P, especially EP types are the last people to change their mind when it comes to matters of opinion.

As ever, if you want a different response from the process provide different/higher quality outputs; we all know we cannot control other peoples reactions, only our own actions.

I think they often feel that people don't take them seriously because they don't have a lot of luck convincing others; this makes me feel sorry for them in a way, but I hope their first reaction is to say: 'Okay this person is not changing their mind; if I want to convince them what can I provide to them to convince them?' rather than 'This person is closed-minded because they do not agree with me.'

I have learnt to develop a very methodical and analytical approach to do things, largely influenced by my education in University. Still I havent managed to think like that too, my mind's still an abstract mess when it comes to thinking about things. That's why I like written conversations, cause then I have time to check my own thoughts for consistency, in verbal conversation I most often firstly recognize I am talking bullshit, the moment after I've said it.

It's okay entropie. We still like you really.

 

[entropie]

I think they often feel that people don't take them seriously because they don't have a lot of luck convincing others; this makes me feel sorry for them in a way, but I hope their first reaction is to say: 'Okay this person is not changing their mind; if I want to convince them what can I provide to them to convince them?' rather than 'This person is closed-minded because they do not agree with me.'

You dont have to, I wont be pissed if someone doesnt take me seriously, it only shows me that he and me are incompatible. For whatever reasons that maybe. I generally get the most from people I dont have to explain every thing to in detail, I feel alot thru a conversation, I think logic and pragmatism should be applied to a nice Mercedes but not to conversation with people. I get the most from a conversation only then when I feel energized, enlightened and amused by every thing the other one says.

I have a very high demand towards the interlocutor to understand me and emphatize with me right from the start.

 

[Elfboy]

I do understand the op perfectly, could infact be something I've written myself and therefore I think its a view on matters from a very N perspective.

I like to finetune the idea with regards to SJ being intrested in new ideas, but often demanding deep logical consistency. It's my natural state to let the brain wander and to daydream, the only thing that keeps me sane is a fundamental understanding of the natural laws and a kinda boolean logic. In discussion with SJs I am often forced to make sense with what I say and of course that is necessary in the business world, yet on a more friendship based level or in my private sphere, I feel kinda humiliated by the need for everything to make perfect sense by SJs.

Thats why I tend to avoid their presence when I want to have fun. There are people on this world who actually can understand me without me needing to explain everything.

I have learnt to develop a very methodical and analytical approach to do things, largely influenced by my education in University. Still I havent managed to think like that too, my mind's still an abstract mess when it comes to thinking about things. That's why I like written conversations, cause then I have time to check my own thoughts for consistency, in verbal conversation I most often firstly recognize I am talking bullshit, the moment after I've said it.

Working with people demanding from me to make sense every second is very straining and drains a lot of my energy. Still I understand that it is ncessary. There are SJs who are different, like my ESTJ boss who deeply values my ideas and encourages me to elaborate and to think about them openly and while I am in the room with her. She understood that I just do things differently and she has learnt to respect that to be rewarded with the answer he was looking for. I deeply appreciate her doing that for me.

I think the majority of my colleagues think that I am an idiot and I cant say they are really wrong about that. Yet my responsibilities in the company keep growing and I am often consulted for my technological expertise and ideas around future developments, I feel that my superiors respect me and see potential in me. I hope I'll maintain to operate stable in this business world and to keep up the fascade of a phillistine life. I am quite convinced tho, at some point in my life, I'll blow it again and do something differently .

a lot of this has to do with being a Pe dom (Ne or Se) as opposed to specifically being an N thing. Ne and Se function by interacting with live data. you have a naturally tendency to talk and then think because you analyze and gather information in an active, in-the-moment sort of way. I have the same struggle on the opposite struggle. since I am Pi inferior (which gathers information in a more research/studying/academic sort of way), studying business can be a pain in the ass sometimes (although I think once I'm able to start, this will become much easier). lately I've been thinking "I'm an N dom, aren't all these theoretical concepts supposed to be easy for me to grasp?" but it's because Pe (Ne in both your case and mine) sucks at passive learning like reading, listening and looking up things online.

 

[entropie]

Thats not true, think here's a difference between enfp and entp.

You'ld find in me the most disciplined intense reader in the world. The majority of my work hours i skim thru wikipedia, robot miniature engineering and astronomics articles. I am always very good informed because I read like hell. I only rarely read books with love stories or criminal stories, those bore me.

I dont read very methodically, I tend to skim chaotically thru a text. But I read very precisely and try to understand what the author wanted to say, which sometimes can be done with only one single word that was different.

 

[IZthe411]

I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?

I have noticed one ENFP on here change her perspective on SJs. So somebody's listening.

But for the rest of the self proclaimed N types- I think SJ is a catch all for people who irritate them.

 

[Elfboy]

Thats not true, think here's a difference between enfp and entp.

You'ld find in me the most disciplined intense reader in the world. The majority of my work hours i skim thru wikipedia, robot miniature engineering and astronomics articles. I am always very good informed because I read like hell. I only rarely read books with love stories or criminal stories, those bore me.

I dont read very methodically, I tend to skim chaotically thru a text. But I read very precisely and try to understand what the author wanted to say, which sometimes can be done with only one single word that was different.

perhaps I spoke too certainly, my apologies

 

[Elfboy]

I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?

I have noticed one ENFP on here change her perspective on SJs. So somebody's listening.

But for the rest of the self proclaimed N types- I think SJ is a catch all for people who irritate them.

I can't speak for everyone else, but apart from SJs, types likely to annoy me include SPs, NFJs and sometimes NTPs. in fact, the 2 types that annoy me the most are ENFJ and ESTP. I admit most SJs I know IRL annoy the bujesus out of me, but I'm really here to understand them better and have found a lot of the replies from SJs to be helpful with this.
PS: to be a little more specific my opinion of SJs
- SJs in authority positions bother me, but this has more to do with the fact that they are authority figures and I'm an entrepreneural ENFP 7w8.
- STJs bother me in academic and professional settings, but they're fine outside of work and I'm surprised how much we actually agree on things. they're also wonderful if you're in a position of authority over them, but at age 19 this doesn't happen to me so often
- ESFJ I frankly cannot stand lol
- ISFJs can be absolutely wonderful as close friends, but sometimes they can be overly passive an schmoozing and both these tendencies annoy me.

 

[Totenkindly]

obviously, anyone who knows about MBTI knows that all SJs are not rigid, closed minded bureaucrats. what is different about them than say, ENTPs, is that it takes more energy to process new ideas and information. an SJ who is confronted with lots of change and new information is like "whoa! slow down, I need time to process this!"

That's part of it. Hard data has to be examined and compared to what has been previously validated, in order to make sure it matches up. This takes time. SJs don't necessarily trust change and have to manage the risk, whereas NPs thrive on change and more typically "throw themselves on the currents."

NPs can completely change vast amounts of previously known information in effortlessly and in seconds, but Si is sort of a "foundation" type of function. for ENTPs, changing information is as easy as driving and making a left turn. for an SJ, changing information is like remodeling a house. you need to rework things from the foundation and make sure everything is still sturdy and solid. for example, an ISTJ needs a lot of time alone to process, except and work new information into the basic foundation of their life and their beliefs.

yes. This is why they make great actuaries/accountants and engineers, etc.

so, coming back to my point, close mindedness in SJs comes for the same reason that avoiding work does for NPs, laziness. SJs become closed minded and bureaucratic when they don't take the time to consider the new information and except that some new information may potentially better. as about 45% of the population is SJ and a large percentage of people are lazy, it's no surprise that there is a lot of overlap, hence, a lot of rigid SJs. this leads people to make the generalization that being an SJs are naturally close minded, but correlation doesn't equal causation. anyway, just a theory, feel free to make a counterpoint

I would agree that unwillingness to invest energy at someone else's expense is one reason why some SJs might dig in. I think it is reasonable to expect an SJ type to need some time to explore data and make sure it's solid; so usually if I have an issue with one, it's because I feel that the option was never seriously considered in the first place because it was threatening or inconvenient to them in some way, not because they needed time to process. (I've had a lot of experience, to my detriment, in that area... although there are those who rose to the occasion and diligently plowed through things.) The processing time is necessary, though; and the more concrete and quantifiable the data, the better. No loose/abstract connections.

I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?

You seem more flexible than many I've known. Typically, even with the flexible SJs I've known, there is a period of resistance where a new idea that contrasts with their prior held values is shoved back against... and then, if it doesn't just vanish, they'll start to consider it and perhaps change course if there's enough good information to warrant it. I've seen minds change even on things that ran completely counter to their prior ideas... but only if they get the right information and only if they have the time they need to vet it.

EDIT: more comments from the SJ's... we other types need to shut up a bit.