Sorry for the wall of text. :blushing:
My point overall here is, it sounds to me like a lot of us are actually describing the same thing from different ends. It’s just that Fe’ers are more impatient with the process? They want the emo to be decided, they want the conclusion faster- they don’t want to put all the time into it themselves when others might have answers. We don’t relish in exploring that stuff the way Fi’ers do?
Thanks for your post, Z Buck. I agree with this, and I feel the Fe impatience with emotion (generally) and, not only that, Te is impatient too ... everyone wants the good emotions, and want to be rid of the bad as quickly as possible, or to be able to attribute them to something outside themselves, thus be rid of them too. Sometimes to me it seems like few people place importance on the fine details of exploring emotion, and want to rush forward to what I call an "80% solution" - Te and Fe both. And yes, you can tell me that there's a level of diminished return trying to define the small stuff, and I do agree with that, but there are times when going the extra 20% makes a significant positive difference, not only in understanding but in resultant action.
I lack the precision, energy or capability to explain this much better, and for that I apologize. (Curse you introverted function fatigue!)
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Also, I wanted to say that I definitely agree with fidelia about feeling the negative emotions physically, too. To the point where I feel ill, anxious, shaky, etc. So in a way, it is something that needs to be purged, and the sooner, the better. Having a new perspective or an action to take is the only thing that lifts it. Examining the emotion for the emotion's sake only makes me feel worse.
Yes, negative emotions make me feel that way too, they sure aren't a pleasure to explore, and I do want to be rid of them too. It's not necessarily perspective or action that purges them, although those contemplations might be part of my action plan to do so - it's understanding "why?" that ultimately matters. "Why am I feeling this way?" I need to examine the emotion, define, pick it apart, much like I imagine Ti needs to examine all of the inner workings too.
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Well, one of the reasons that I participate so much in these Fe-Fi threads is that in teaching, I'm frequently dealing with immature Fi users and it's helpful to at least have an idea of what language is more effective for them. In my close personal life, there are a couple of cases of Fi users who are greatly impacting their kids by what they do/don't do, but I realize that anything I would naturally do to try to improve the situation is not going to be received as being loving. I care too much to just shrug my shoulders and walk away, so right now I'm kind of at an impasse.
I am very glad you care. Do you deal with immature Fe users too when teaching? How do you approach them? (As an aside, I think I prefer the use of the word "young" in this context rather than immature, since immature is best used IMO for someone older who perhaps hasn't yet gained a certain level of mastery.)
It's hard for me not to hear judgement about other people throughout this paragraph as I read it though, even as I am typing my responding paragraph with total respect and compassion towards you, knowing that you have continually shown yourself to be a genuine, good and caring person on this forum. Phrases like "frequently dealing with immature Fi users", "Fi users who are greatly impacting their kids by what they do/don't do", "I care too much to just shrug my shoulders" ... all these sound like you already have a negative opinion, and someone has to prove themselves better in order for you to change it. It feels hard to be saddled with the weight of that emotional judgement right out of the gate. And I truly believe you when you say you
would change your opinion with new data coming in, if you saw people making an "effort" to be better. It's simply challenging for me to read it and feel neutral, and believe that you are neutral, and that you believe in me. IDK, Fe doms would just say it plain, and I find that less difficult to read somehow, maybe it's more like Te? Just exploring this too so I can understand it better myself.
Anyway, I have let more of my natural, non-neutral phrasing show here on the forum, and I don't know that has helped much either to any greater appreciation of the Fi perspective. But I do know that no matter what any of us do, there will always be someone who doesn't think well of us, or like us, even if we try our very best to be understanding and caring and meet the needs of those around us the very best we can.
Would the best thing we can do, when we don't speak the native language of another person, is just find a better translator than us, and work through that person to effect change instead? So, we are still involved and trying and using every tool we have at our disposal - not expecting to be experts in using it ourselves, but recognizing when the tool is most appropriate to be put into use.
IDK, what do you think?
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Te, especially in the Fi perspective, is how to handle all those things that one has to do that one would really rather not do. Emotion is detached, and you just do them. Sticking emotion context on them only confuses.
The Fi is where the motivation lies, but it comes from within, not from without. So you build motivation in Fi (in others) by allowing them to try and fail without fearing failure. Not that you coddle them - rather you can say things in a "harsher" way without emotion, pointing out what was done right and wrong, without any hint that one is displeased. That it's OK to fail, but one just keeps working at it. You teach them by letting them be themselves, within limits.
@bold: yes
I already responded to this a bit earlier in thread, feeling it would be hard for Fe to not communicate displeasure when they feel it, even indirectly, but wanted to add, and I'm not sure how it fits - I always wanted to know why we were doing something. Once there was a
why ... I could fit in into a context and thus could get engaged. When I took uni level calculus, and we got to a certain point in the learning, I got very lost. Didn't do well in that class at all. A few years later, I was watching a PBS-style show with a prof teaching calculus and he explained what calculus was meant to explore, why it was important and what it could do. I felt like the blinders were lifted from my confusion and all of a sudden, it made sense to me! Oooh, that's WHY we take calculus! Then I could invest in it. It just didn't immediately fit into a context I could see. I didn't (and don't) need a step-by-step per se, I just need to know WHY this will be useful to me.
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I've noticed that Fi is bigger on trust and less on respect. In some ways it cuts people more slack and in others it has higher expectations.
Hmm, I am not sure about that; I have more expectations on myself, and generally have learned to only hold myself to those standards, realizing they are not universal at all. So, I guess I don't really know if Fi is bigger on one or the other, and I think that is hard to define.
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There seems so be a repeating pattern in these threads where the Fe/Ti (or Ti/Fe) side challenges the definitions of ‘Fe’ being put forth by the Fi/Te side; we are more inclined to see it as ‘final product’, and we get itchy when it isn’t complete- just as Fi/Te gets itchy when behaviors/values don’t seem congruent. And it’s like the Fi/Te side keeps coming back with something equivalent to, “right, that’s why Fi is betterâ€. <- That's the repeating pattern. I’m guessing (maybe hoping) this is because it isn’t complete, which is hard for us to understand. As long as the Fi’ers try to slip some form of “right, that’s why Fi is better†into the recipe- Ti is going to reject it. Much in the way Fe venting seems like back-stabbing and deceitful behavior, because it isn’t presenting a face to the world where behavior and values are already congruent: the tendency to constantly bias definitions (which we mistake as finished product) seems seedy and manipulative, because they aren’t already accurate and fair.
Z Buck, I felt sad reading this whole post. And I am not expressing that emotion in order to make you or any other Fe user take any kind of action. Just hoping to make that clear. I personally don't think Fi or Fe is better, and I have endeavored to maintain neutrality on that while trying to explain how things appear from this side of the fence. What I find challenging as an Fi user is that the default position of Fe is that it
is the most correct. Continually in these threads, I feel like I struggle for the Fi position to be seen as valid, equal. Legitimate. I try to explain it in the best way I can. And from my vantage point, Fe stands slight askance and says, "Well, still, that's just not right. We don't get it." It's hard to feel that sense of being misunderstood, and I realize me saying so is cliche too. Fi users don't totally get Fe either. But we are all trying, and I guess that's a wonderful thing in and of itself. I myself have more appreciation for the Fe vantage point from these threads, and previously I thought I was very Fe savvy, moreso than most. Do you think Fe users have more appreciation of Fi participating? Or is it more like ... ya whatever, Fi whinging over and over and over again.
So it seems reasonable to me there may be something to this notion that it’s harder for Fi’ers to digest incongruency between behaviors and stated values.
Thanks, but see, even here, an Fi
notion ... no offense Z Buck, because I respect you so very much for your thoughts and sharing on this forum, and have proven your good intentions time and time again. Still, there's the word notion:
no·tion   
–noun
1. a general understanding; vague or imperfect conception or idea of something: a notion of how something should be done.
2. an opinion, view, or belief: That's his notion, not mine.
3. conception or idea: his notion of democracy.
4. a fanciful or foolish idea; whim: She had a notion to swim in the winter.
We are saying - it is more than a notion. Notion implies kind of a vague, frivolous silliness on our part. And I
know you don't mean it like that.
*sigh* idk if me pointing this stuff out helps any at all. Words that describe inner or emotional states have to be crystal-clear perfect for me is all. Notion as a word feels too vague and kind of invalidating.
i think you are right about the final product, but it frustrates me a little because it sounds like what you're saying is that even if the final product put forth by the Fe user in regards to Fi is not quite right, then we should just suck it up and not address how it's not right? but to me, the whole purpose of the forum is understanding one another, and i would want to know if you thought my take on Fe was not the way you felt about it. i imagine we're running into this on both the Ti/Te and Fi/Fe ends, because Te and Fe just want to be done with it and move on while Ti and Fi are like, wait, that's not right... admittedly i see some of the NTP conversations in the NT forum and am like god that discussion could go on forever, which is true, we could play a game of reductio ad nauseum with anything. i suppose perhaps that is how some NFP discussions feel to you guys, too, but to us this Fi nitty-gritty is what's really important, so we need to get it just right, because if we don't, then we can't proceed correctly...
the other feeling i get, is that there is a latent sense from some FJs and TPs that Fi is a rather useless function. it's subjective and personal, so how can it be fairly applied to anything? the other functions all have some grounding in the external, but Fi is completely internal. and that sense of uselessness is really annoying. so there's also a feeling, at least on my personal part, of needing to show how Fi is a valuable function, both because i need to prove it to myself for the sake of my own self-worth and because i need to prove it for everyone who relies on Fi as a function. there is this driving sense of needing to prove, we are not worthless. and NFPs on the defense, because we have no inherent ability to block others out short of Te, must resort to lashing out to protect themselves - so some of the seeming attacks you may be feeling may very well be defense.
I can relate to this post.
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Anyhoo, I am sure if we were to meet IRL, these little differences between us, that sometimes seem so large in writing, would vanish amidst our collective desire to care about and understand each other.
<3 to all.