[NT] ENFP confused by INTx

[A window to the soul]

hes a INTJ i think.

And you can forget my last post.

You just seemed a bit hard.

Here's the soft, sugar coated version:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/shobdey/donut.jpg

 

[slowriot]

ISTx are not boring. Only the unhealthy ones.

A lot of what I read through in this thread from the INTP's, describes an unhealthy person and has nothing to do with a healthy INTP or INTJ. My Dad is a classic example of a healthy INTP. It's like night and day. The reality is, this man is unhealthy and the sooner the OP comes to terms with that, the better off she will be. Reread all of her posts, if you have any doubts. The OP is setting herself up for disappointment. She will not have to go through this crap with a healthy man. I know.

Gawd, I'm always shocked to realize how warped and selfish people's thinking is. So you're INTx, so what?? You're not a bunch of friggin babies! We don't need someone to hold our hands and walk us through life. Sometimes we need a dose of cold cruel reality, like a threat that you're gonna leave us for someone else if we don't commit. That's not a game, that's not mean, it's reality baby! People have a right to get frustrated and move on with their lives. Who the hell do we think we are?

to bolded, agreed. Id have much more respect for a woman that owns up and sets her boundaries. Its not her that loses out if I choose not to commit. But this is a little different if you read the thread. It seems she was playing games with him to make him commit. There's a big difference in that compared to talk it out and then give him "an ultimatum". Personally Id like if a woman would give me a deadline to figure out my feelings. Like a few days. It can be done in a way so I wouldnt run away screaming "commitment, do not compute!"

 

[Salomé]

i've stumbled a few times lately in using this word, but your presupposition is just annoying.

5s still want completeness. they want more information. it's an impulse, an absolute limit, a desire for more. just because e5s do not see certainty as an obtainable object or a state to reach doesn't mean that it doesn't characterize an impulse. its absence is something that one must come to terms with and continually maintain a position of acceptance towards. whether it is a more complete model or a better story, the desire for better information quality is always there. e5s are driven by a search for knowledge and by an attack on the conditions of even the possibility for knowledge. but that never mediates their desire for knowledge, for information quality, for expertise and mastery.

Completeness doesn't guarantee certainty, merely consistency. I have a powerful drive for understanding and closure, but the minute I start to be certain of anything, at one level removed, I consider myself almost certainly deluded.

But to be certain that there are no certainties is arrogantly paradoxical, to be sure.

 

[rav3n]

some people are better than others at actually understanding what the issues are for other people.

Completely agree with this.

that changes both the motivations and the methods when considering what you can accomplish in the relationship and why you might want to do so. there are also many aspects of romantically fulfilling that you might not recognize but are nonetheless quite there.

The OP came to TypeC with concerns. Her concerns haven't been addressed. Instead she avoided the concerns and fluffed up her avoidance to make it sound fulfilling.

Instead of whitewashing, how about addressing the real issues? She's in a relationship with someone who's not going at the pace she feels comfortable with since he's not displaying the commitment level she's hoping for. So, she tried to manipulate the pace by playing games and is her own worst enemy with what she was trying to accomplish.

Rather than playing games and fluffing up the bull, why not get rid of all the extraneous fluff and go straight at it.

Define what she honestly wants and needs in any relationship. Define what she wants and needs from this guy. Do the two match? If so, go to the next step of handling the relationship in a mature, direct and honest manner of two reasonable adults being responsible for themselves. Honesty towards the other will let each decide if they're really suited to each other.

Right now, all I'm seeing is more sideways fluff for fear of losing him. A very bad position to put oneself into since you've subordinated yourself.

 

[the state i am in]

demanding the world to be seen almost solely through a Ti or a Te lens might not exactly be the mature, healthy version of a person you all seem to think it is. just kind of rigid and oversimplifying the world and definitely not actually having any sense of what's true for others. enjoy your relationships under those conditions. it seems very meagre and, to use a word uttered above, pathetic. although, perhaps with non-T-is-everything F types, the response to that which is pathetic might be different, might inspire compassion rather than solely contempt.

 

[digesthisickness]

i guess i'm the only one thinking it's as simple as his not being over his ex.

 

[rav3n]

This isn't solely Te. It's Te combined with Ni, Se and Fi. Consider it inner harmony that permeates to external focused actions.

 

[AgentF]

This thread is so wonderful it makes me smile...

Ok, so I have the update we've all been waiting for.

I spoke to my INTJ last night. I was calm, rational, and left emotions out of it. Here's what transpired:

me: There's something I want to tell you.
him: Yes?
me: I'm ready to stop seeing other people. I've known that for a long time but was following the advice of my friends and trying to keep the pressure off you, by dating other people. It's not fair to me or to the others involved and I'm tired of wasting my time when what I really want is to focus on spending time with you.
him: What about the 3 months I mentioned needing to heal from my previous relationship? I can't really do both at the same time (date you and heal, although I'm obviously trying to).
me: I have no idea. That's not why I'm bringing it up, although I'm pretty sure a workable solution exists to whatever concerns you have. I'm just trying to tell you about a decision I've made.
him: How did you come to this decision?
me: I felt like I was deceiving myself and manipulating others, at least until they sat their butts in a chair and I got to explain to them that I had feelings for someone else.
him: You did that?
me: Yes. I'd bring it up at the very beginning because it seemed like the right thing to do.
him: Now I feel pressure.
me:How you feel is up to you. I'm just communicating some information. My intent is not to manipulate you into doing anything. I don't want you to jump into a relationship with me if you don't want to; I want to be wanted, like everyone else. I'm a pretty awesome person and believe that the right person will recognize that.
him (avoidance + Te): But, regardless of what your intentions are in telling me this, I now feel pressure.
me: Because you think a new expectation has been placed on you.
him: Of course.
me(borrowing from Salomé*): You don't want any relationship expectations right now. You've said that. But the expectation to not have expectations placed on you, is an expectation.
him: *smiles* Clever.
me: I think you need to consider me for a minute. I'm not taking myself out of the dating pool because I expect you to follow a desired course of action. It's the right thing to do, for me. And I honestly don't know how you think either of us can maintain a state of zero expectations for 3 months while you heal. While we continue to spend time together, care about each other, begin to trust each other.
him: Of course I see your point. The other option that exists, which we've discussed, is my telling you that I'll call you in 3 months while I heal, and see if you're interested in and available for a relationship then. It's from a purely selfish standpoint that I want you in my life right now even though I'm unable to give you a committed relationship now. I realize that, as well as the risk involved in letting you go for 3 months. In that time frame, I know that I may lose an opportunity to have a relationship with you. And I'm dating you now, when I probably shouldn't, because I actually do see the potential for you as a serious, long-term girlfriend.
me:So help me understand the 3 months.
him: I know what it's like to jump into a serious relationship quickly. And watch it devolve into mutual unhappiness. And I don't want to do that again. Please consider that it is because I do care about you that I'm trying to take things very slowly. I want to keep getting to know you and build a foundation that will last.
me:That sounds like a relationship.
him: Yes, but one that gives me the freedom to enter into a deeper one with a higher probability of success.
me: Define deeper.
him: The end-state that we've discussed that we both want: lifetime companionship, marriage. I'm not using or manipulating you. I'm trying to protect the potential we have. Believe it or not, you're already on the "accelerated track". I want you in my life badly enough to date you even though I know I should probably spend this time alone.
me: I like what you're saying, but it's been difficult trusting my intuition and observations of you alone, in the face of friends and now family arguing that you're a jerk who doesn't respect my time, that you don't care about my needs being met, etc.
him: I'm sure they've said all that and more. If you need something of me that I'm not giving you, tell me what that is and I'll do my best to give it to you.
me: I'd like some advance notice when you want to see me, for example.
him: Define advance notice.
me: At least a few days. 2 minimum. I like spontaneity and want that, too, but I don't want to take your crumbs.
him: Fine. I can give you advance notice. Just so you know, I don't plan much of anything in advance. Even with my closest friends, my schedule fluctuates every week. But I can give you advance notice, sure.
him: About your friends: I know what it's like to give in to pressure to jump into a serious relationship prematurely. I like to think that I'm getting a bit wiser with age, though, and that I have learned from previous mistakes. You're here because I care about you, because I see tremendous potential between us and want to protect that potential. Not because I don't value you or want to use you.
me: Thank you for saying that. I'm going to have to think about all this. *snores*

So that's it. May the dissection/mudslinging commence!


* thank you

 

[AgentF]

p.s. happy NYE everyone! Coincidentally, it's my birthday!!!

 

[rav3n]

Consolidated:

Her: I'm ready for a committed relationship.
Him: I'm not but I might be in the future.

Two choices:

1. Walk.
2. Wait it out in hopes of more.

Your choice. This is Te speaking.

Fi would be saying "walk!" with no hesitation. It sees a carrot dangling from a stick that's held a foot away from the nose.

 

[Tallulah]

Consolidated:

Her: I'm ready for a committed relationship.
Him: I'm not but I might be in the future.

Two choices:

1. Walk.
2. Wait it out in hopes of more.

Your choice. This is Te speaking.

Fi would be saying "walk!" with no hesitation. It sees a carrot dangling from a stick that's held a foot away from the nose.

This is what it boils down to. I think his intentions are good, and I think it's smart of him to give himself some time to get over the ex and get in the right frame of mind to devote his attentions fully to you. I'd wait it out if you care about him. But if waiting frustrates you too much, break it off now. Those really are your only options. I really don't think 3 months is unreasonable. Don't listen to your friends and family, and don't start playing games with yourself about how much he cares about you, i.e., "If he really liked me, he would WANT to date me now and wouldn't want to lose me before 3 months" etc. This is his way of caring. You have to decide whether that's okay with you or not. (He'll have to do some adjusting to your style, too, though.)

Happy birthday!

 

[the state i am in]

at the same time tho, how is "wait three months" not expectations? something so defined, it's difficult to see why that's not a test. does this work? does it seem like a good idea? i start to feel weird at this point, but i'm also more invested in feeling than thinking. can these boundaries be created or maintained in a way that actually works for both parties? in the space of a breakup, can you make promises at all, or does the time off only work when it truly has no expectations and is instead focused on getting the self back on track independently of anyone else. it really is so much about figuring out how to create a support structure for yourself and re-direct both your goals and activities and the sphere of your relationships to be able to manage and maintain your emotional world without by far the biggest (and now missing) part of it, right?

i guess for me, i want to make a distinction between desire, between what you want, and emotions. maybe this is incorrect? i feel like Fi is not just about transitory desires but also personal truths that are remembered forever. as an sx type, i tend to rank what i want and focus so much on what i want most of all. in a breakup situation, you want someone else to just solve everything. i understand how withstanding that and finding equilibrium is important, but can you do that if you've made such a defined request and you're keeping that image at bay?

in agentfurrina's situation, you have to decide if you're willing to commit to waiting for someone even before you've begun a relationship? or have you already established enough to feel confident that this is true for both parties? after 3 months, does the balance and equality of Fi and Te equalize in this relationship, or does Te always do the directing?

 

[A window to the soul]

Fi would be saying "walk!" with no hesitation. It sees a carrot dangling from a stick that's held a foot away from the nose.

Logic and intuition should tell her to walk. She's in a bad Fi-loop and that's what's keeping her alluded to reality.

Again the facts: she just met this man online and started dating him; she's not in an exclusive relationship with him; he told her he "needs time to heal" from a previous relationship; there are many other healthy men out there to choose from.

To the OP: He's not interested. I've had similar dialogue with men when they're clinging and I'm ready to move on. I'm not trying to be mean by telling you this, I'm trying to spare you the over-analysis and help you see the facts (as clearly stated in his responses to you). Do what's best for you, move on. Don't tell this man your every move like you are in a mutually exclusive relationship with him. The fact is, you are not. INTP's and INTJ's are very smart. This is not his first relationship. He's well aware of what to do to make you happy.

As for his intentions. I assume a lot of things, but under the circumstances, I would not assume he has good intentions because I don't personally know this man, nor do I have all of the facts. I have enough dating experience to know what's healthy and what's not. The fact is, his words are not lining up with his actions... Why did he post his profile on a dating website, yet he is putting you off for 3-months? ...and still continues to ask you out? Are you having sex? If yes, then there ya go.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I hate to see people go from one bad relationship to another. I'll tell you what I've told so many others on this site... you deserve to be loved the way you love, don't settle for less. There are plenty of fish in the sea.

 

[Usehername]

I agree with perfectgirl, except I don't think he has bad intentions. To phrase it differently, I think he's making lame character choices and rationalizing these choices because his intentions are good. Who cares about intentions when people are experiencing the repercussions of your actions? There are real repercussions and he's pretending they don't exist because he keeps redirecting the focus to his good intentions.

I have good intentions to not hit anyone while driving under the influence of alcohol, even though I know my behaviour has an unnecessarily high probability of ending very badly.


In the abstract, a mature adult should be able to say this:
I will choose to commit and take the good and the bad, or I will choose independence and take the good and the bad with that.

You cannot have both and behave maturely. He's being a baby. He's rationalizing his fence straddling. He's also setting a relationship precedence for you if you did end up getting more serious--namely, INTx "man" has the powah to fence sit and make you deal. This is not loving or respectful, even if he doesn't mean it to be this way.

 

[rav3n]

I like his style. He's being honest. But I'd punt him. Rebounds rarely work out.

 

[Salomé]

p.s. happy NYE everyone! Coincidentally, it's my birthday!!!

Happy Things! (Incidentally, my sis is ENFP and also born NYE! You remind me a bit of her. )

I don't agree with the naysayers. I like that conversation. It seemed honest and heartfelt. If you're anything like me, connections are few and far between and worth waiting for. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and his 3 mths. Discipline yourself to wait for him to make the next move. See other people in the meantime if you feel like it. Have fun.

 

[digesthisickness]

i don't see anything wrong with his asking for more time. particularly since he seems to take commitment so seriously.

it's only been 2.5 months. choosing to get to know someone for 3 additional months before committing seems reasonable and mature. i say drop it and just enjoy him while getting to know him better. 3 months will fly by.

and, for all you know, OP, he'll decide even sooner.

 

[AgentF]

i agree wtih Salomé and digesthissickness. can't be helped. my choice is to walk (and miss him) or demonstrate my natural loyalty and stay (and have hopefully a great time along the way).

we're talking about a potential lifetime partner. worth waiting a few months for? yes.

plus, we're OLD, people.

now, off to put on a NYE costume and have a great time tonight! i don't know if my last update kills the thread, but i promise to keep everyone posted here along the way.


p.s. forgot to mention that we have beautiful intellectual and physical chemistry.
p.s. 2 i realized i've spent ~ 12 years with INTJs (every one of my previous bfs was INTJ with the exception of an ENFP and holy sh*t was that annoying ).


wee!

 

[rav3n]

It's your choice to do whatever makes sense to you. Bear in mind how far you've already invested in the couple of months you've been dating him. Slow down or you're in for some serious hurting if this doesn't work out.

This is an unpaid announcement from Te/Ni.

 

[digesthisickness]

i agree wtih Salomé and digesthissickness. can't be helped. my choice is to walk (and miss him) or demonstrate my natural loyalty and stay (and have hopefully a great time along the way).

we're talking about a potential lifetime partner. worth waiting a few months for? yes.

plus, we're OLD, people.

good. it's only 3 months. i'd rather give it that short a time and have a chance at happiness than give up now and always wonder what could have been.